New England IPA "Northeast" style IPA

[IslandLizard]

I've become a huge fan of NaCl for my chloride addition. I always get this horrible minerally taste when I use a lot of CaCl. I don't get anything like that with NaCl. Plus, it's like adding salt to food. It amps up the flavor. I've gone up to about 100 ppm of Na without it tasting salty. At 100 ppm, if I really look for it, you do get a hint of salt on the tip of the tongue. But nothing overpowering.

Appreciate the tip on the NaCl. I got some mineral taste in my 146 ppm Cl brew using CaCl. It did mellow out and disappear after a week or two, but I might try the NaCl if I taste it again...

A little bit salt (Sodium) is good for beer flavor perception. 100 ppm of Na+ may not get in the way, it may even enhance a NEIPA, but surely is a boat load for most other beers.

As an alternative you could add the Potassium version, KCl, to raise your Cl- ions. Also makes good storage solution for your pH probe. 'Light' or 'Reduced Sodium' salt contains KCl.
Alpha Chemicals sells it, among other minerals useful in brewing and such.

I was even thinking of using Ammonium Chloride and Ammonium Sulphate as possible substitutes for CaCl and CaSO4, but am unsure whether the Ammonium ion is actually more detectable than Sodium, tasting even more salty. I've never seen references to it for use in beer.

 

[ttuato]

I joined the lowoxygenbrewing forum a while back and stumbled upon Weyerman Barke Pilser. I brewed a pilsner with it plus 5% carahell and 3% melanoiden malt about a month ago. It tastes and smells like honey, has awexome mouthfeel, and has unbelievable foam / lacing. Taking a que from @couchsending (no flaked adjuncts, or oats or wheat plus beta & alpha rests) I am going to brew my next NEIPA with the same grainbill.

 

[Braufessor]

Been a while since I chimed in...... been busy and I honestly have not really tried anything different or worth mentioning. Just been sticking to the basic updated recipe for the most part. However, a few weeks ago I was cleaning out my freezer. Lots of hops I had been stockpiling for quite a while. Some I just threw out (that had been opened). Others I condensed and vacuum packed, etc. At any rate, I had some "hop blends" that I had opened and used some of .... left overs were in vac-packed mason jars. I decided to just dump them all in a bag together. Roughly 2 pounds total I would guess. Rough estimate was probably 1 pound of 7 C's and probably a half pound each of Zythos and Falconer's Flight. Threw them all in a big bag together and mixed them thoroughly and vacuum packed.

Ended up brewing an IPA 2 weeks ago and kegged it today. Bittered with Warrior to 30 IBU at 60 min. Then threw an ounce of the blend in at 30 and another ounce at 5. 5 ounces during cooling and 5 ounces dry hop hop. Used 1272 yeast. 150:50 sulfate:chloride. Was kind of going for a west coast/NEIPA happy-medium. Sampled today as it went into keg..... tasted really great. I could see doing some more like this. Of course, nothing like a random, probably unrepeatable hop blend . At any rate, those hop blends are always a nice "go to" - especially for folks who do not want to buy some of the other hops by the pound.

In my experience, 7 C's is more of the "traditional"west coast hop flavor. Zythos and Falconers Flight are more toward the fruity/topical in my experience.

 

[Braufessor]

I joined the lowoxygenbrewing forum a while back and stumbled upon Weyerman Barke Pilser. I brewed a pilsner with it plus 5% carahell and 3% melanoiden malt about a month ago. It tastes and smells like honey, has awexome mouthfeel, and has unbelievable foam / lacing. Taking a que from @couchsending (no flaked adjuncts, or oats or wheat plus beta & alpha rests) I am going to brew my next NEIPA with the same grainbill.

Barke Pilsner is fantastic. It is all I use in pilsners/lagers. I buy Barke Pilsner and Barke Vienna by the sack. Love it.
** I do notice I have to adjust my mill to a slightly wider gap to accommodate it. Never tried it in NEIPA - but a great idea. I might have to give it a try too.

 

[Loud Brewing]

It's a beautiful hazy day here in SoCal, so it seemed to be the perfect time for me to break out my most recent neipa. This time I kept it simple and am pleased with the results.
I know there has been some discussion of Electric Brewing beers here in this thread, so pictured is their can release from yesterday next to mine for comparison. Also a couple pics of the brewhouse. (Note the bags of oat malt)

 

[Rainy]

I joined the lowoxygenbrewing forum a while back and stumbled upon Weyerman Barke Pilser. I brewed a pilsner with it plus 5% carahell and 3% melanoiden malt about a month ago. It tastes and smells like honey, has awexome mouthfeel, and has unbelievable foam / lacing. Taking a que from @couchsending (no flaked adjuncts, or oats or wheat plus beta & alpha rests) I am going to brew my next NEIPA with the same grainbill.

You have a recommendation for mash profile in terms of time and temperatures?

 

[ttuato]

For Pils - 146 for 30min & 162 for 30min

For Neipa - 152-154 for 30min & 162 for 30min

Add mashout of 10 @168 if you sparge - I do full volume no sparge so I skip this step.

 

[uSlackr]

I’ve seen you reference Scott and his studies a lot, which is great, I enjoy reading his reviews a lot too. I would also recommend Tom Shellhammer, an actual brewing scientist (no knock on Scott).

Relevant hop articles are under the Research tab here:

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.researchgate.net/profile/Th_Shellhammer/amp

IMO, Stan's value is in talking about other's work. He has an audience and studies the topic. And I had no idea who those two mentioned were.

 

[uSlackr]

... with Brad Smith eating and smacking his lips in the background the whole time Stan was talking. So far he talked about the haze being mostly proteins, some hops compounds, very little yeast which I think most people have come around on.

I didn't notice Brad's eating, but you would think after 189 shows he would have learned how to interview. He leaves valuable information from the guest just hanging while moving onto the next question. It's like he isn't listening sometime.
Brad I love you, but...

 

[uSlackr]

The only person that is putting out any new info on the style with true evidence and full disclosure on the studies he does or ones he references is Scott Janish. I’ve learned to solely depend on his finding and my own experiences.

Where can I find Scott's Janish's info?

 

[Dgallo]

Where can I find Scott's Janish's info?

http://scottjanish.com

 

[Andre3000]

Need to give a shout out to Imperial Yeast here. I had a question on starters / harvesting / repeated pitching regarding A24 because of its blend of conan and Sacch trois and perhaps differing propagation rates of the individual strains and within 24 hours I got this response:

Hey Andre,

Thanks for reaching out! You are correct, the A04 Barbarian and A20 Citrus blend is 50-50%, but due to the differing flocculation rates, that ratio will change from gen to gen. When you harvest, you can homogenize to the best of your ability, but still expect some drift over time. Let me know if there are other questions that come up!

Cheers,
Nina

To be honest I didn't even consider flocculation and harvesting. I then posed the question regarding the starter and the answer was the same:

Andre,

You can expect that ratio to be very close to 50-50 with a prop. Just pitch the whole starter (do not decant) when you pitch.

Cheers,
Nina

So basically, if you aren't entirely homogenizing, your A24 will drift which by nature means no harvesting, only overbuilt and non-decanted starters if you want to keep it as consistent as possible.

 

[Blazinlow86]

Need to give a shout out to Imperial Yeast here. I had a question on starters / harvesting / repeated pitching regarding A24 because of its blend of conan and Sacch trois and perhaps differing propagation rates of the individual strains and within 24 hours I got this response:

Hey Andre,

Thanks for reaching out! You are correct, the A04 Barbarian and A20 Citrus blend is 50-50%, but due to the differing flocculation rates, that ratio will change from gen to gen. When you harvest, you can homogenize to the best of your ability, but still expect some drift over time. Let me know if there are other questions that come up!

Cheers,
Nina

To be honest I didn't even consider flocculation and harvesting. I then posed the question regarding the starter and the answer was the same:

Andre,

You can expect that ratio to be very close to 50-50 with a prop. Just pitch the whole starter (do not decant) when you pitch.

Cheers,
Nina

So basically, if you aren't entirely homogenizing, your A24 will drift which by nature means no harvesting, only overbuilt and non-decanted starters if you want to keep it as consistent as possible.

Side note I recently made a Citra IPA with a24 and it came out fantastic. I liked it better than the a38 that I usually use. Cheers

 

[Dgallo]

There are a lot great yeast out there for this style. I’ve tried almost all of the common on but I have to give credit where credit is due, A24 is the star of the show for me. If you haven’t tried it yet, you have too

 

[WBCo]

Scored an 11lb bag of hand selected Citra from one of the West Coast’s better hop forward breweries... let’s just say it’s not a level playing field. I thought I had some decent Citra before... not even close.

Agree with this 100%. I brewed one of my recipes at a smaller brew pub that didn't have the hops on hand that we needed. They bought a few boxes (with sealed 22# bags in them) from one of the larger breweries here in MD. It's been a few years, but I believe they said they purchased them from Flying Dog. Anyway, that was the best version of my beer that I've ever brewed and the only difference was the hops. Credit to the brewery, they even contacted RVA yeast labs and got a pitch for the batch because that's what I was using at the time.

 

[BeerFst]

anyone using A24 adding extra lactic acid just before fermentation for the sacc trois to munch on? I messaged imperial about A24 also and asked about Lactic acid additions and ethyl lactate but they didnt have any information on that. I have read several accounts on previous posts about adding several mLs per gallon on this forum and MTF, so I'm definitely planning to do it. Just wondering if there are any more anecdotes so that i can dial in my addition.

 

[couchsending]

anyone using A24 adding extra lactic acid just before fermentation for the sacc trois to munch on? I messaged imperial about A24 also and asked about Lactic acid additions and ethyl lactate but they didnt have any information on that. I have read several accounts on previous posts about adding several mLs per gallon on this forum and MTF, so I'm definitely planning to do it. Just wondering if there are any more anecdotes so that i can dial in my addition.

Wouldn’t that be based on the old assumption that Sacch Trois was actually Brett? If it’s not Brett then would it create those flavors by converting lactic acid?

 

[Sbe2]

Having not tried A24, can you repitch this? I am cheap and like to overbuild my starters to harvest yeast. Knowing that A24 is a blend, its seems like it is not a good for the repeatability of a beer.

 

[Dgallo]

Having not tried A24, can you repitch this? I am cheap and like to overbuild my starters to harvest yeast. Knowing that A24 is a blend, its seems like it is not a good for the repeatability of a beer.

You can repitch from overbuilt starters. I don’t know for how long though, I’ve only done 3 generation that way. I didn’t notice any sway in the profile but it’s bound to happen eventually

 

[BeerFst]

Wouldn’t that be based on the old assumption that Sacch Trois was actually Brett? If it’s not Brett then would it create those flavors by converting lactic acid?

I believe that is where it started, but the anecdotes I read suggest that 644 still makes the conversion. The thread below is from 2015, right around the time that WL disclosed it was actually sacc, so no doubt there is some confusion still going, but see post #12, specifically. There was also a response from Dan Pixley on MTF about 644 consuming it but he didnt provide any hard data for it. There was a study on brett done by Chad Yakobson on the topic but 644 was not included (not sure if this was before or after the WL report). This study actually came up in the conversation with imperial.

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/forum/threads/wlp644-as-primary-yeast-in-sour.526806/

In any case, that's why I was asking for more anecdotes. I have read as low as 1mL/gallon (I was planning on 5-10ml for a 5g batch), but also as much as 20mL/g (poster confirmed it was 88% too). I would like to do a split batch comparison on the topic but the reality is my brewing is far from regular. I still havent ruled it out though, but have several other beers in the pipeline that need to be made.

 

[1bottlerocket]

Agree with this 100%. I brewed one of my recipes at a smaller brew pub that didn't have the hops on hand that we needed. They bought a few boxes (with sealed 22# bags in them) from one of the larger breweries here in MD. It's been a few years, but I believe they said they purchased them from Flying Dog. Anyway, that was the best version of my beer that I've ever brewed and the only difference was the hops. Credit to the brewery, they even contacted RVA yeast labs and got a pitch for the batch because that's what I was using at the time.

What form were the hops?

I have been watching a few videos of hop selection process and it looks pretty sophisticated. I can imagine if you have a big contract you can get the top shelf pick.

I didn’t realize what a big industry it is and I can imagine that it is exploding right now with the popularity of the American style.

 

[SRJHops]

There are a lot great yeast out there for this style. I’ve tried almost all of the common on but I have to give credit where credit is due, A24 is the star of the show for me. If you haven’t tried it yet, you have too

I almost grabbed A24 last time (grabbed A38 Juice instead), but I plan to take your advice and use it for my next brew. Could you share any tips? I was slightly scared off by the warning that it needed a lot of oxygen to start. I feel like I do a good job with aeration and have never had a problem, but I am doing it without an oxygenation kit/stone.

 

[Dgallo]

I almost grabbed A24 last time (grabbed A38 Juice instead), but I plan to take your advice and use it for my next brew. Could you share any tips? I was slightly scared off by the warning that it needed a lot of oxygen to start. I feel like I do a good job with aeration and have never had a problem, but I am doing it without an oxygenation kit/stone.

A38 is also solid. I don’t do any additional aeration other than racking into my fermenter and allowing it to splash some. Never have had issue. Now if your going to make a beer 1.075 or better, probably wouldn’t hurt to try to get more oxygen in the wort for the yeast

 

[WBCo]

What form were the hops?

Not sure if this is what you mean, but they were T90 pellets.

 

[Sbe2]

You can repitch from overbuilt starters. I don’t know for how long though, I’ve only done 3 generation that way. I didn’t notice any sway in the profile but it’s bound to happen eventually

Glad to hear that it doesn’t sway too early.

 

[Loud Brewing]

We got a chance to visit the White Labs tasting room today and it was quite an experience. For those who don't know, they brew identical beers of a certain style and the only variable is the yeast strain. It is truly amazing how different strains can create a drastically different final product. I have primarily been using 1318 and GY054 in my neipas, but look forward to trying WLP008 now that I really tasted it isolated and saw the low floc. I am also propping up some A24 for my next brewday.

 

[beervoid]

We got a chance to visit the White Labs tasting room today and it was quite an experience. For those who don't know, they brew identical beers of a certain style and the only variable is the yeast strain. It is truly amazing how different strains can create a drastically different final product. I have primarily been using 1318 and GY054 in my neipas, but look forward to trying WLP008 now that I really tasted it isolated and saw the low floc. I am also propping up some A24 for my next brewday.

How would you describe the esters of wlp008 are they close to conans peach esters?

 

[SRJHops]

I have a bit of an esoteric question for discussion, if anyone is interested. It's related to style and recipe formulation. Get the Venn Diagram ready:

If all (good) NEIPA's are Juicy IPA's, are all Juicy IPA's NEIPA's?

I ask because I see the movement away from flaked adjuncts, but also away from the high-protein adjuncts overall (namely wheat and oats). The latest Janish recipe in BYO uses no flaked adjuncts. I also recently watched a video of Tonsmeire making a very clear NEIPA. (He even seemed a little surprised that it was so clear, but he only used 2-row and chit malt. He said it tasted great.)

Flavor is king, and haze is not the goal, but is there a difference between a Juicy IPA and a NEIPA? Or are they the same thing?

 

[marchuk96]

I have a bit of an esoteric question for discussion, if anyone is interested. It's related to style and recipe formulation. Get the Venn Diagram ready:

If all (good) NEIPA's are Juicy IPA's, are all Juicy IPA's NEIPA's?

I ask because I see the movement away from flaked adjuncts, but also away from the high-protein adjuncts overall (namely wheat and oats). The latest Janish recipe in BYO uses no flaked adjuncts. I also recently watched a video of Tonsmeire making a very clear NEIPA. (He even seemed a little surprised that it was so clear, but he only used 2-row and chit malt. He said it tasted great.)

Flavor is king, and haze is not the goal, but is there a difference between a Juicy IPA and a NEIPA? Or are they the same thing?

I'd say there is a correlation between juicy and n.e's and the majority of the time they go hand in hand.. but I think you most certainly can have a clear or clearish ipa and have it be perceived as juicy...to me the juicy terminology is not just the look but feel and flavor of the beer as well...so if you look at a beer that maybe was mashed high and got provided some support with water chemistry it could look as clear as glass but have the body ,sweetness, and perception that u could call juicy...take lagunitas for example...most of there beers are all pretty clear and yet they are so full in body and residual sweetness accompanied with massive hop flavor that I would consider some of them juicy...prime examples being something like the Waldo's or born again yesterday...half acre brewery would be another good example of the same thing..even some stone beers...they are always clear and even finish dry but i think they still could be considered juicy...i think they even use the word juicy on some of there packaging...so IMO I think there can be a difference and the word juicy does fit to other ipas other than just new englands... although I think new england style probably paved the way to the use of the word juicy and now people and breweries have accepted this and started to make that more common terminology when describing the characteristics of what they are perceiving or want you to percieve

 

[LumberZach]

So I was going through some older saved tweets and found this. If anyone here has ever had Bright with Galaxy or BBBright with Galaxy, you'll know that they're both hazy as all get out and to me tastes like Green's cousin. Just something to mess with if you feel like experimenting.

 

[Dgallo]

So I was going through some older saved tweets and found this. If anyone here has ever had Bright with Galaxy or BBBright with Galaxy, you'll know that they're both hazy as all get out and to me tastes like Green's cousin. Just something to mess with if you feel like experimenting.


View attachment 624885

Both solid beers. I understand TH deserves credit where credits due but the gap that them, trillium, and Hill has on the style is pretty much gone. Many breweries are producing the same quality beers that they are. In my option it makes it no longer necessary to wait in line for their beers

 

[JohnnyJohnJohns]

Brewed this last week 50% Galaxy, 50% Centennial, used Ebbegarden Kveik.

It's still got a bit of hop burn but overall a really tasty beer. Would people recommend adding gelatin to the keg or let it sit a while longer to settle out?

20190501_213442

• JohnnyJohnJohns
• May 1, 2019

 

[Dgallo]

Brewed this last week 50% Galaxy, 50% Centennial, used Ebbegarden Kveik.

It's still got a bit of hop burn but overall a really tasty beer. Would people recommend adding gelatin to the keg or let it sit a while longer to settle out?

20190501_213442

• JohnnyJohnJohns
• May 1, 2019

That’s galaxy. Lots of polyphenols. Big dryhops from them the bite tends to stick around 2 weeks.

 

[LumberZach]

Both solid beers. I understand TH deserves credit where credits due but the gap that them, trillium, and Hill has on the style is pretty much gone. Many breweries are producing the same quality beers that they are. In my option it makes it no longer necessary to wait in line for their beers

I was just stating that a simple grain bill of 2Row and some Carafoam can yield a hazy NEIPA without the need for wheat, oats, or any other adjuncts.

 

[Dgallo]

No I know what you were saying. But some people get the impression that’s the only way to make a solid ipa is if your doing the same thing they are doing. You can make a hazy beer with just two row and fermentation dryhoping and then a heavy late dryhop. If you do this the beer will be just as hazy. Oats and wheat should be used for other properties than just haze, like specific mouthfeel and body.

 

[Dgallo]

Sorry if that was ranty, wasn’t supposed to be lol

 

[marchuk96]

So I was going through some older saved tweets and found this. If anyone here has ever had Bright with Galaxy or BBBright with Galaxy, you'll know that they're both hazy as all get out and to me tastes like Green's cousin. Just something to mess with if you feel like experimenting.


View attachment 624885

Weyermann's Carafoam has a high starch content (and enzymes) that requires enzymatic breakdown or else haze could be a problem in the finished beer (it always depend on the quantity used)...maybe they don't mash it from the start and add it in late during mash to promote the haze while also getting some of the other benefits

 

[ttuato]

Janish / Tonismere state that Carafoam is most closely related to Chit malt NOT carapils

Weyermann's Carafoam has a high starch content (and enzymes) that requires enzymatic breakdown or else haze could be a problem in the finished beer (it always depend on the quantity used)...maybe they don't mash it from the start and add it in late during mash to promote the haze while also getting some of the other benefits

 

[SRJHops]

Janish / Tonismere state that Carafoam is most closely related to Chit malt NOT carapils

Good to know. I thought they were basically the same. I have been using carapils. My LHBS has carafoam, but no chit malt. Will switch from carapils and see what happens!

 

[Silver_Is_Money]

Chit literally means sprout. Malted means sprouted. Cara means caramel (crystal). Carafoam is known as Carapils everywhere on earth except within the confines of the USA, where Briess was somehow granted a registered trademark on the name. I'm not one who places faith in there being a vastly dramatic difference between the two.