New England IPA "Northeast" style IPA

[stickyfinger]

Does this happen?? CO2 tank contamination?

I never really thought about this seriously until this year after looking into the LODO thread Schematix started. As I thought about it, I realized that there could be more or less CO2 in any given cylinder at any given time:

- i think all cylinders have to be completely emptied and opened up every 5 years for testing. that would allow air to fill the cylinder. then, if you just filled it up with CO2 once, it would have way more oxygen in it then a cylinder that had been used for 5 years without ever being run to zero CO2.

- cylinders that have been used down to no CO2 left vs ones that have been used down to positive CO2 pressure would have more O2 in them at any given time (perhaps a reason to get refills rather than exchanges.)

- cylinders that have been refilled more times without O2 exposure should have less O2 as it is getting flushed a little bit with each fill.

Any way you look at it, there is going to be some O2 in any cylinder, and there is going to be almost no O2 in the vicinity of active yeast or in their CO2 byproduct stream. Is the O2 in a cylinder enough to kill your beer early? I don't know - some are sure that it does - some think the idea seems over-the-top. Just some food for thought.

I've started carbonating all of my IPAs (and other styles when I can) by spunding (using a corny keg as my fermenter.) I don't know if it has made a difference yet as I have only done a handful so far, but I think it is a great way to carbonate and start serving your beer from a keg without ever introducing it to any unnecessary oxygen (of course you do it during dry hopping, but that is mitigated by dry hopping during fermentation and then sealing up for the rest of fermentation and carbonating.) The only time the keg will start seeing O2 is when you have to finally hook it up to the CO2 cylinder to start serving it once the head pressure goes down too far in your keg to serve itself.

Here is an excellent thread on looking into LODO on the cold side:

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/forum/threads/pressurized-closed-loop-corny-keg-fermenting.600563/

 

[ca_baracus]

I never really thought about this seriously until this year after looking into the LODO thread Schematix started. As I thought about it, I realized that there could be more or less CO2 in any given cylinder at any given time:

- i think all cylinders have to be completely emptied and opened up every 5 years for testing. that would allow air to fill the cylinder. then, if you just filled it up with CO2 once, it would have way more oxygen in it then a cylinder that had been used for 5 years without ever being run to zero CO2.

- cylinders that have been used down to no CO2 left vs ones that have been used down to positive CO2 pressure would have more O2 in them at any given time (perhaps a reason to get refills rather than exchanges.)

- cylinders that have been refilled more times without O2 exposure should have less O2 as it is getting flushed a little bit with each fill.

Any way you look at it, there is going to be some O2 in any cylinder, and there is going to be almost no O2 in the vicinity of active yeast or in their CO2 byproduct stream. Is the O2 in a cylinder enough to kill your beer early? I don't know - some are sure that it does - some think the idea seems over-the-top. Just some food for thought.

I've started carbonating all of my IPAs (and other styles when I can) by spunding (using a corny keg as my fermenter.) I don't know if it has made a difference yet as I have only done a handful so far, but I think it is a great way to carbonate and start serving your beer from a keg without ever introducing it to any unnecessary oxygen (of course you do it during dry hopping, but that is mitigated by dry hopping during fermentation and then sealing up for the rest of fermentation and carbonating.) The only time the keg will start seeing O2 is when you have to finally hook it up to the CO2 cylinder to start serving it once the head pressure goes down too far in your keg to serve itself.

Here is an excellent thread on looking into LODO on the cold side:

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/forum/threads/pressurized-closed-loop-corny-keg-fermenting.600563/

Cripes. This is the first batch ever that I'm kegging. I bought the kegerator, CO2 tank, and regulator off of Craigslist. I did check for leaks, but I guess there's no way to tell if your CO2 is compromised.

 

[stickyfinger]

Cripes. This is the first batch ever that I'm kegging. I bought the kegerator, CO2 tank, and regulator off of Craigslist. I did check for leaks, but I guess there's no way to tell if your CO2 is compromised.

i honestly don't know how much is to be gained by carbonating and starting to serve using the yeast-derived CO2. It may not be a huge gain. I don't have enough experience. Obviously you can make stellar NEIPA using a CO2 cylinder that can be served for over a month. All of us on this list have done that. If I can gain a few more weeks or a few more hop volatiles by using spunding, I am willing to go to the trouble and expense. It's personal preference at this point.

 

[cheesebach]

could be the cryo hops. were they in 1 oz bags? i used sone that were a bit yellow and they were fine but no better than pellets. if really old they could ruin the beer. they seem to be just sold in maybe N2 purged bags which might lead to more oxidation more quickly than a pounder vacuum sack of pellets. were they on sale, lol?!

Not on sale, unfortunately - they were in those 1 oz N2 flushed bags, so I'd think they'd be well protected from O2? I'm in Texas though, so maybe they got stuck in a hot truck during shipping or something? Did the yellow ones that you used smell like normal hops?

Does this happen?? CO2 tank contamination?

Probably not, just trying to think of anything that's changed that went into this batch compared to the others I've done using this recipe.

 

[Smellyglove]

I never really thought about this seriously until this year after looking into the LODO thread Schematix started. As I thought about it, I realized that there could be more or less CO2 in any given cylinder at any given time:

- i think all cylinders have to be completely emptied and opened up every 5 years for testing. that would allow air to fill the cylinder. then, if you just filled it up with CO2 once, it would have way more oxygen in it then a cylinder that had been used for 5 years without ever being run to zero CO2.

- cylinders that have been used down to no CO2 left vs ones that have been used down to positive CO2 pressure would have more O2 in them at any given time (perhaps a reason to get refills rather than exchanges.)

- cylinders that have been refilled more times without O2 exposure should have less O2 as it is getting flushed a little bit with each fill.

Any way you look at it, there is going to be some O2 in any cylinder, and there is going to be almost no O2 in the vicinity of active yeast or in their CO2 byproduct stream. Is the O2 in a cylinder enough to kill your beer early? I don't know - some are sure that it does - some think the idea seems over-the-top. Just some food for thought.

I've started carbonating all of my IPAs (and other styles when I can) by spunding (using a corny keg as my fermenter.) I don't know if it has made a difference yet as I have only done a handful so far, but I think it is a great way to carbonate and start serving your beer from a keg without ever introducing it to any unnecessary oxygen (of course you do it during dry hopping, but that is mitigated by dry hopping during fermentation and then sealing up for the rest of fermentation and carbonating.) The only time the keg will start seeing O2 is when you have to finally hook it up to the CO2 cylinder to start serving it once the head pressure goes down too far in your keg to serve itself.

Here is an excellent thread on looking into LODO on the cold side:

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/forum/threads/pressurized-closed-loop-corny-keg-fermenting.600563/

But, you should have a duckbill valve built into your regulator, which should not let any air into the tank? When refilling you should "know" you're out of gas, thus you don't need to open the valve before it's connected to the refill-tank and the hose is purged.

 

[stickyfinger]

Not on sale, unfortunately - they were in those 1 oz N2 flushed bags, so I'd think they'd be well protected from O2? I'm in Texas though, so maybe they got stuck in a hot truck during shipping or something? Did the yellow ones that you used smell like normal hops?

maybe you were just smelling the wonderful texas air, full of oil refining and such, yuck! ha ha. i have a brother there in the oil biz so i like to tease him about the horrible smells. anyway, i remember one time i had an N2 flush bag of hops, some english variety, and i took them out of my freezer after several years, maybe 5 or something. they were brown, not yellow and they smelled awful. that's when i realized that the N2 flush bag is not perfect protection. It just buys some time. If they were heated a lot at some point or old, they could be bad.

The ones I used were more yellow than hop pellets, but they should be, as they contain more oils and less plant material, right? So, that in and itself is not a great indicator compared with T90 pellets. As I recall, they didn't smell the same either. They smelled kind of more intense, not necessarily great, hard to remember now. They seemed to perform about the same as pellets at half the rate, as everyone says.

Michael said his Citra cryos smelled "almost offensively dank" - i don't think he liked the smell of the raw cryo pellets:

https://www.themadfermentationist.com/2017/07/cryo-lupulin-neipa-citra-mosaic.html

 

[stickyfinger]

But, you should have a duckbill valve built into your regulator, which should not any air into the tank?

maybe you're right. i'm not sure. in any case, the tank is opened up completely every 5 years, right? i'm sure there is some amount of O2 coming in from the tank used to fill my CO2 cylinder as well, and on down the line. You might be right though that the risk of O2 going into the cylinder due to draining it down too far is not real or not very high at least. like i said, it might not be a big effect.

 

[schematix]

i honestly don't know how much is to be gained by carbonating and starting to serve using the yeast-derived CO2. It may not be a huge gain. I don't have enough experience. Obviously you can make stellar NEIPA using a CO2 cylinder that can be served for over a month. All of us on this list have done that. If I can gain a few more weeks or a few more hop volatiles by using spunding, I am willing to go to the trouble and expense. It's personal preference at this point.

Try it sometime. Good chance you'll change your mind.

I spent *years* trying to make a good IPA, fiddling with complex grain bills, adding lots of expensive hops, only to get a weird cloying metallic finish.

Now i go grain to carbonated beer in about 5 days using simpler recipes, cheaper yeast, cheaper hops and get the most bright and vivid hop character you could imagine.

 

[stickyfinger]

Try it sometime. Good chance you'll change your mind.

I spent *years* trying to make a good IPA, fiddling with complex grain bills, adding lots of expensive hops, only to get a weird cloying metallic finish.

Now i go grain to carbonated beer in about 5 days using simpler recipes, cheaper yeast, cheaper hops and get the most bright and vivid hop character you could imagine.

yeah, i'm doing it now. i have two IPAs going right now that I'm spunding. The last one I made was fantastic, but I also drank it so fast I didn't have a chance to see if it lasted longer than usual! I plan to keep doing it for all of my future IPAs at least for awhile. I also would like to do a straight up comparison between the closed loop method and my old method and see the differences in the beers over time, but that's like 9G of the exact same beer so I'm not enthused to do that just yet. I guess I could do it in my two 3G kegs when they are free.

 

[cheesebach]

maybe you were just smelling the wonderful texas air, full of oil refining and such, yuck! ha ha. i have a brother there in the oil biz so i like to tease him about the horrible smells. anyway, i remember one time i had an N2 flush bag of hops, some english variety, and i took them out of my freezer after several years, maybe 5 or something. they were brown, not yellow and they smelled awful. that's when i realized that the N2 flush bag is not perfect protection. It just buys some time. If they were heated a lot at some point or old, they could be bad.

The ones I used were more yellow than hop pellets, but they should be, as they contain more oils and less plant material, right? So, that in and itself is not a great indicator compared with T90 pellets. As I recall, they didn't smell the same either. They smelled kind of more intense, not necessarily great, hard to remember now. They seemed to perform about the same as pellets at half the rate, as everyone says.

Michael said his Citra cryos smelled "almost offensively dank" - i don't think he liked the smell of the raw cryo pellets:

https://www.themadfermentationist.com/2017/07/cryo-lupulin-neipa-citra-mosaic.html

Thanks for the input - I definitely wouldn't describe the cryo pellets I got as being more yellow than regular pellets or smelling more intense/dank than usual. They were mostly brown with a bit of yellow mixed in and a more muted/dull/musty aroma than the T90 pellets of the same variety. .

We don't get much of those wonderful oil refinery smells here in Austin, but maybe my nose was just plugged up with all the oak pollen being dumped on our house on brew day

 

[Northern_Brewer]

Not on sale, unfortunately - they were in those 1 oz N2 flushed bags, so I'd think they'd be well protected from O2?

It's worth noting that to all intents and purposes we can't get retail packs of cryohops here in the UK - we could briefly but they've now stopped. Apparently the hop merchants weren't happy with the quality of cryohops in small packs, they've even asked the usual 3rd-party repackagers not to repackage them.

Now you can imagine all sorts of reasons why they've done that, but it is plausible that there's stability problems with cryohops in small packets.

 

[cheesebach]

Now you can imagine all sorts of reasons why they've done that, but it is plausible that there's stability problems with cryohops in small packets.

That’s interesting - i think I’ll definitely be holding off on trying them again until they’re a little more battle tested at the homebrew level. Though it seems a little counter intuitive that the N2 flushed 1oz packs in the original YCH package would have an issue, given that the regular pellets in those same packages are among the freshest looking/smelling hops I’ve purchased. If anything, it’s the repackaged vacuum sealed hops bought in bulk that have occasionally been a slight bit oxidized looking.
I wonder there’s something in the pellet-izing process that creates an issue?

 

[jakturner]

That’s interesting - i think I’ll definitely be holding off on trying them again until they’re a little more battle tested at the homebrew level. Though it seems a little counter intuitive that the N2 flushed 1oz packs in the original YCH package would have an issue, given that the regular pellets in those same packages are among the freshest looking/smelling hops I’ve purchased. If anything, it’s the repackaged vacuum sealed hops bought in bulk that have occasionally been a slight bit oxidized looking.
I wonder there’s something in the pellet-izing process that creates an issue?

I’ve used the cryohops repackaged and vacuum sealed from farmhouse and absolutely love them. I have some YCH in the freezer that I haven’t tried them yet but I’ll report back on the quality. FYI the farmhouse cryo pellets were the same color as normal pellets but more sticky and dank.

 

[UCChemE05]

Is there any benefit to "naturally" priming the keg using priming sugar? I'll go directly from the fermentor into the keg after about two weeks in the primary. I don't have the ability for a spunding and LODO setup.

 

[schematix]

Is there any benefit to "naturally" priming the keg using priming sugar? I'll go directly from the fermentor into the keg after about two weeks in the primary. I don't have the ability for a spunding and LODO setup.

Even if you don’t do full low oxygen you’ll get some of the benefits of low oxygen by keg priming.

 

[Sbe2]

Is there any benefit to "naturally" priming the keg using priming sugar? I'll go directly from the fermentor into the keg after about two weeks in the primary. I don't have the ability for a spunding and LODO setup.

I have recently been kegging on day 3/4 while yeast is still active. I open transfer and purge after filling. Letting it naturally carb without a spunding relief valve. I get a lot of yeast, but the beer doesn’t get oxidized.

 

[jakturner]

The darker pellets are YCH cryohops the lighter ones are farmhouse cryohops vacuumed sealed (both simcoe) the farmhouse pellets definitely smell better. YCH smells ok but they smell older and less vibrant even though they were purchased 2 months after the farmhouse hops.

 

[grassfeeder]

BTW, my recipe in post #6570 just won Silver in NEIPA and went on to mini-BOS in an all-category IPA contest. I lost Gold to the eventual BOS winner.

 

[leesmith]

View attachment 572690 The darker pellets are YCH cryohops the lighter ones are farmhouse cryohops vacuumed sealed (both simcoe) the farmhouse pellets definitely smell better. YCH smells ok but they smell older and less vibrant even though they were purchased 2 months after the farmhouse hops.

I have found big inconsistencies in quality of ingredients across various sources. Unfortunately as home brewers we are at a disadvantage. Whether it’s available brands, quality of handling, or even our own storage (time is an issue)..paying attention to ingredient selection is smart but can be frustrating.

 

[tld6008]

BTW, my recipe in post #6570 just won Silver in NEIPA and went on to mini-BOS in an all-category IPA contest. I lost Gold to the eventual BOS winner.

Congrats!

 

[UCChemE05]

I have recently been kegging on day 3/4 while yeast is still active. I open transfer and purge after filling. Letting it naturally carb without a spunding relief valve. I get a lot of yeast, but the beer doesn’t get oxidized.

Thanks. Couple questions for you...

How do you handle dry hopping with going into the keg so early?

How long do you get excess yeast coming out of the keg? I've thought about doing something similar but shortening the dip tube a bit to leave most or all of the yeast cake at the bottom.

 

[stickyfinger]

Thanks. Couple questions for you...

How do you handle dry hopping with going into the keg so early?

How long do you get excess yeast coming out of the keg? I've thought about doing something similar but shortening the dip tube a bit to leave most or all of the yeast cake at the bottom.

I'd put in a plug for fermenting in a corny keg using the Clear Beer Draught System. Then, you can rack to a purged keg to serve or serve straight from the primary.

 

[Sbe2]

Thanks. Couple questions for you...

How do you handle dry hopping with going into the keg so early?

How long do you get excess yeast coming out of the keg? I've thought about doing something similar but shortening the dip tube a bit to leave most or all of the yeast cake at the bottom.

I shake my fermenter a few times to make everything drop. I have 6 gallons in there and will fill my keg until the floaters get near and stop before they get into the keg.

My first glass and a half is green and yeasty. After that it cleans up unless I move the keg. I usually get a solid half inch of yeast at the bottom of the keg when I clean it.

I haven’t had a stuck poppet yet, but have thought about cutting my diptube.

 

[degivens]

Anyone listened to this podcast with the Monkish brewer?

https://itunes.apple.com/us/podcast...ine-podcast/id1296082082?mt=2&i=1000409468381

A lot of insight into their process. Particularly dryhopping post fermentation and a pH of 5.0 into the kettle...

Might experiment with some of this soon.

 

[popquizkid]

I'd put in a plug for fermenting in a corny keg using the Clear Beer Draught System. Then, you can rack to a purged keg to serve or serve straight from the primary.

If only 6 gallon corny were more available. I don't like spending all of the time brewing that I do to get 4 gallons or less of beer.

 

[stickyfinger]

If only 6 gallon corny were more available. I don't like spending all of the time brewing that I do to get 4 gallons or less of beer.

yeah, it's a tradeoff. quality over quantity! if you can boil up a double batch (9ish gallons), that can be a good option.

 

[schematix]

Fermenting in a keg I can get 4.5 gal with ales and 4.75 gal of lagers. But you must use a blow off or have a way to prevent blow off from getting into the spund valve if you use one.

It's not ideal to lose those extra few beers, but there are a lot of positive trade offs.

 

[cheesebach]

View attachment 572690 The darker pellets are YCH cryohops the lighter ones are farmhouse cryohops vacuumed sealed (both simcoe) the farmhouse pellets definitely smell better. YCH smells ok but they smell older and less vibrant even though they were purchased 2 months after the farmhouse hops.

Thanks for the photo! I know the lighting and camera could be playing a role too, but going from my memory, I’d say the YCH cryohops I got were at least as dark and probably a shade more towards brown even than what you’ve got there. It good to see that the ones from farmhouse are looking & smelling better though - I may give cryohops another go with them next time I order.

 

[LittlejohnBrew]

How quick are you guys drinking these before the hop flavor fades? I brewed a 5 gal batch on 5/18 with a 30 min hopstand 2 oz each mosiac and citra. Then dry hopped after about 36 hours with 3 oz each mosiac and citra. I did a pressurized fermentation in corny kegs and transferred to serving keg today. The NEIPA is for a party on 6/9 so I am wondering if I should throw in another charge of 3-4 oz of hops split between mosiac/citra. I'm afraid of the hop flavor fading by the party. Not too worried about introducing a little oxygen since this will most likely be consumed in 1 day.

Also, right now the beer is more grassy than I expected. May be due to an 11 day drop hop?

 

[tld6008]

How quick are you guys drinking these before the hop flavor fades? I brewed a 5 gal batch on 5/18 with a 30 min hopstand 2 oz each mosiac and citra. Then dry hopped after about 36 hours with 3 oz each mosiac and citra. I did a pressurized fermentation in corny kegs and transferred to serving keg today. The NEIPA is for a party on 6/9 so I am wondering if I should throw in another charge of 3-4 oz of hops split between mosiac/citra. I'm afraid of the hop flavor fading by the party. Not too worried about introducing a little oxygen since this will most likely be consumed in 1 day.

Also, right now the beer is more grassy than I expected. May be due to an 11 day drop hop?

Sounds like it should be great by 6/9 just like it is.

 

[Northern_Brewer]

The NEIPA is for a party on 6/9 so I am wondering if I should throw in another charge of 3-4 oz of hops split between mosiac/citra. I'm afraid of the hop flavor fading by the party.

Yes, it will be past its best by the 6th of September....

the beer is more grassy than I expected. May be due to an 11 day drop hop?

11 days is longer than it needs to be - but temperature seems to be more of a factor for the grassy thing, many commercial breweries are dry hopping at cellar temperature, say 13C/55F. What temperature was the beer during the dry hop?

 

[LittlejohnBrew]

11 days is longer than it needs to be - but temperature seems to be more of a factor for the grassy thing, many commercial breweries are dry hopping at cellar temperature, say 13C/55F. What temperature was the beer during the dry hop?

Started off at 65F finished at 69F. This is the longest warm dry hop I've done. Got lazy and transferes to the serving keg later than originally planned. It's not an unpleasant grassiness though. It's actually pleasant, but my goal was for it to be more on the juicy side.

Maybe once chilled it will balance out.

 

[popquizkid]

Fermenting in a keg I can get 4.5 gal with ales and 4.75 gal of lagers. But you must use a blow off or have a way to prevent blow off from getting into the spund valve if you use one.

It's not ideal to lose those extra few beers, but there are a lot of positive trade offs.

I would think by the time you add a 6-8oz dry hop charge you are loosing more than a few beers right? If I can convince my brother to get a kegerator setup I was thinking about moving to double batches. Ferment them in one of the converted sanke fermenters. Would end up with two full 5g kegs per batch.

I am totally into the quality over quantity approach -- but right now my brewing process is outside and very manual. Once I have the ability to go electric inside I might be able to brew more often with less moving equipment around, not having to brew around weather, etc. It takes a while and with kids, etc just can't brew enough to justify all that loss. My compromise is to transfer at the tail end of fermentation and spund. Timing that has been pretty tricky as fast as 1318 ferments though!

 

[schematix]

I would think by the time you add a 6-8oz dry hop charge you are loosing more than a few beers right? If I can convince my brother to get a kegerator setup I was thinking about moving to double batches. Ferment them in one of the converted sanke fermenters. Would end up with two full 5g kegs per batch.

Big IPAs with a massively dry hop are obviously a little less. Probably more like 4 1/4 - 4 1/3 G.

 

[tld6008]

Yes, it will be past its best by the 6th of September....

6/9 is June 9 over here

11 days is longer than it needs to be - but temperature seems to be more of a factor for the grassy thing, many commercial breweries are dry hopping at cellar temperature, say 13C/55F. What temperature was the beer during the dry hop?

 

[Northern_Brewer]

6/9 is June 9 over here

There's nothing in @LittlejohnBrew's profile to indicate where they are.... But just generally it's a courtesy on an international forum to avoid formats that hinder communication rather than enhance it.

 

[hunterzzz]

Brewing another variation this weekend.
Mixing it up a bit based on some recent examples I have tasted and different hops to try from Yakima valley. Also received in my new larger mash tun!

6.5 Gallons
OG-1.062
FG- 1.014(ideally)
Mash in at 151. Batch sparge.
10lbs- Golden promise (77%)
2lbs- flaked oats (15%)
1lbs- golden naked oats (8%)

Yeast- 1318

30min- CTZ - 1oz

Flameout/180- 1.0oz equal additions of Azacca, Citra, Mosaic, Hallertau Blanc, Calypso.

Day 3-Dry Hop #1- 1.0oz equal amounts of Mosaic, Azacca, Hallertau Blanc, El Dorado.

Day7- Dry Hop #2- 1.0oz equal amounts of Mosaic, Azacca, Hallertau Blanc, El Dorado.

Total hops- 14oz. (Undecided at this point if I’ll do any keg hopping as I purchased a new keg Hop filter)

Water-standard profile I always use for mouthfeel. start out with RO and add to get to SO4 75, CL 150.

Going to turn around in 14 Days, unless an issue comes up. Haven’t used golden promise in this style, however I have tasted it. Really thought it added some depth. Usually throw in white wheat malt as well, replaced with golden naked oats. Looking forward to it!

So, this is it for your first batch? No 2-row at all? I happened to see your DIPA recipe so i thought i would check to be sure nothing was left out here. Thanks

 

[Flex]

Tasted first bottle yesterday and it's awsome...just wanted to thanx Braufessor for the recipe...

 

[ScrewyBrewer]

I always add my minerals and lactic acid in the mash water and the sparge water the night before I brew. I am using Bru'n Water and I have always very good result.

I do the same. It takes my filter several hours to produce 12 gallons of RO water. I add the salt/mineral acid additions to the container first and let the RO water mix them as it fills.

 

[tld6008]

There's nothing in @LittlejohnBrew's profile to indicate where they are.... But just generally it's a courtesy on an international forum to avoid formats that hinder communication rather than enhance it.

No offense, I just assumed location since he brewed the batch on 5/18 and there is no alternative for that date so September never entered my mind.