New England IPA "Northeast" style IPA

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Guys that use WY1318 has anyone had this before ? second time using this yeast off what looked like healthy yeast starter from my first overbuild, it started off well and went from 1.054 to 1.016 in 3-4 days. Its now been going for 11 days and its still going, dropped a point over the weekend to 1.011. Getting to the point of wanting to keg / dump it and get something else on. Taste wise its not great, slick mouth feel so maybe Diacetyl.

Never had a yeast take so long and the last beer I made with this yeast was really good and finished in 6 days.

Any thoughts ?
 
bigbud78 said:
Guys that use WY1318 has anyone had this before ? second time using this yeast off what looked like healthy yeast starter from my first overbuild, it started off well and went from 1.054 to 1.016 in 3-4 days. Its now been going for 11 days and its still going, dropped a point over the weekend to 1.011. Getting to the point of wanting to keg / dump it and get something else on. Taste wise its not great, slick mouth feel so maybe Diacetyl.

Never had a yeast take so long and the last beer I made with this yeast was really good and finished in 6 days.

Any thoughts ?
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I think it sounds like a Hop Creep... overattenuation and some diacetyl. Read about it.
 
Happens to me too. I think that is more related to the “lagering” process that occurred once kegged and causes some of the bitterness to get stripped along with other proteins, polyphenols, etc. I have found two things work: Gently roll the keg around and invert it to cause that stuff to go back in solution OR drink the keg faster... ;)


Beerdrinker85 said:
I don't know if it's the honey malt doing this. I did 9 straight NEIPA brew, 4 with honey malt (2-4%), 3 without honey malt and 2 with C10. At first (3-4 weeks in the keg) the beer is really good and fresh. After a month in the keg, the beer with and without honey malt became sweet on the flavor side but still have a good aroma. I thought it was honey malt at first but when I completed deleted any sweet malt in my last 3 NEIPA, it's still the same result. Yeast was 1318, Conan and 644. I'm always doing no oxygen closed transfer.

I'm going back to honey malt in the next one with Voss Kveik in the journey for the orange-citrus flavor.
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honestly, how does a keg of a good NEIPA stay longer than 3 weeks much less over a month!?? mine usually kick around the second weekend (MAYBE 1/2 of a third week) I have it on tap, but then again, I do have a couple neighbors that like to come have 1 or 2 :)
 
Does anyone have a 8-9 percent DIPA NEIPA recipe they like? I've been drinking some from this brewery in Murrieta, CA called Electric. They are phenomenal.

https://www.instagram.com/electricbrewingco/

Have you tried bumping up the abv with dextrose in the NEIPA? Looking to make something similar to the monsters these guys have been putting out. I can't get enough!

Thanks in advance.
 
Rainy said:
Great interview with Henry from Monkish to be found here, with the first half talking a lot about the processes he uses for creating his ipas.
It's mainly interesting because the high Cl-SO4 ratio and the dry-hopping during fermentation don't seem to be that important as we all think.
Also nice to hear that his NEIPAs take 30 days from brewing before they are released in cans, mainly because of stability reasons it seems.
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Love the confirmation of the higher SO4, grain bills, knockout PH, and pressure dryhop! Gold! And a couple of interesting nuggets, no dryhopping until post fermentation and long cold crash for cleaner finish. Thanks for sharing this!
 
rickyrich said:
Does anyone have a 8-9 percent DIPA NEIPA recipe they like? I've been drinking some from this brewery in Murrieta, CA called Electric. They are phenomenal.

https://www.instagram.com/electricbrewingco/

Have you tried bumping up the abv with dextrose in the NEIPA? Looking to make something similar to the monsters these guys have been putting out. I can't get enough!

Thanks in advance.
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Most of the NEIIPAs that are in the 8%+ ABV range that I have tasted have a slightly full/sweet finish. If you want that, then I'd just up the base malt and not add sugar. If you want it to be higher ABV but not quite so full/sweet then you could add some sugar. I really love the 8%+ versions that are mostly malt with no sugar or a small amount, but I like the rich, fuller character with all of those hops!
 
stickyfinger said:
Most of the NEIIPAs that are in the 8%+ ABV range that I have tasted have a slightly full/sweet finish. If you want that, then I'd just up the base malt and not add sugar. If you want it to be higher ABV but not quite so full/sweet then you could add some sugar. I really love the 8%+ versions that are mostly malt with no sugar or a small amount, but I like the rich, fuller character with all of those hops!
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Agree completely with this. IMHO, if they don't have enough malt backbone, they get boozy and overly bitter for the style. I generally stay under 7% on mine. Yes, I've had some really good ones over 8%, but more bad than good, so I'm assuming it's difficult to get that correct balance.

Photo is my latest. It's about 6.8% and delicious!
20181111_154737.jpeg
 
I just oxidized my last NE pale ale I made...
Maybe added the second dry hop too late...
Also I tried to make a really dry one and it just was too thin (149 mash)
 
Anyone have troubles with how the hop character falls on the tongue? I seem to have troubles with it hitting the sides of the tongue rather than the top and back like most of the NEIPAs I have tried. Could this be more of the bitter vegetal qualities expressing in my brew vs theirs?
 
MistaCitra said:
Anyone have troubles with how the hop character falls on the tongue? I seem to have troubles with it hitting the sides of the tongue rather than the top and back like most of the NEIPAs I have tried. Could this be more of the bitter vegetal qualities expressing in my brew vs theirs?
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Can you provide the recipe, water profile, and ph of the mash and boil?
 
55% pilsner
17.5% flaked oats
17.5% flaked wheat
5% carapils
5% honey malt

Calcium 106 ppm
Mag 10ppm
Sodium 45ppm
Chloride 151ppm
Sulphate 115ppm

Added 4.5ml lactic to mash
5.3ph mash no reading on boil
 
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MistaCitra said:
55% pilsner
17.5% flaked oats
17.5% flaked wheat
5% carapils
5% honey malt

Calcium 106 ppm
Mag 10ppm
Sodium 45ppm
Chloride 151ppm
Sulphate 115ppm

Added 4.5ml lactic to mash
5.3ph mash no reading on boil
Click to expand...

From my limited experience, higher Sodium and Chloride will push the flavors out on the palate; rounding out the hop flavor.

A lower ph at knockout also helps to avoid the astringent aspects of the ph rise that happens with a huge dry hop.

These two things could be contributing to the mouthfeel your experiencing.
 
leesmith said:
From my limited experience, higher Sodium and Chloride will push the flavors out on the palate; rounding out the hop flavor.

A lower ph at knockout also helps to avoid the astringent aspects of the ph rise that happens with a huge dry hop.

These two things could be contributing to the mouthfeel your experiencing.
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This was my most recent water test. Any ideas how I could knock that sodium level down without impacting other minerals in the water. I’d like to find a balance.
 
MistaCitra said:
This was my most recent water test. Any ideas how I could knock that sodium level down without impacting other minerals in the water. I’d like to find a balance.
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Use 50% distilled and then add CaCl to get back up to 150ish chloride. That'll give you similar to what I use (100:150:75 Ca:Cl:SO4) and I've never had a problem with mouthfeel or astringency.
 
MistaCitra said:
This was my most recent water test. Any ideas how I could knock that sodium level down without impacting other minerals in the water. I’d like to find a balance.
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An easy experiment would be to use Distilled or RO water for an entire brew.
Build your water from there and then see how it turns out.
If you get the same...then it is possibly process related.
If it improves, then you have your answer. And you could cut your water, get a filter, or some other alternative.

Do you calculate your mash ph with a spread sheet and adjust according to it or are you testing and adjusting?
 
leesmith said:
An easy experiment would be to use Distilled or RO water for an entire brew.
Build your water from there and then see how it turns out.
If you get the same...then it is possibly process related.
If it improves, then you have your answer. And you could cut your water, get a filter, or some other alternative.

Do you calculate your mash ph with a spread sheet and adjust according to it or are you testing and adjusting?
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I am testing and adjusting with lactic. I have a cheap digital that I don’t entirely trust. If there are any suggestions for getting a nice one that is reliable and can take readings at mash temp that would be great to hear. What kinds of filtration devices would you recommend?
 
MistaCitra said:
I am testing and adjusting with lactic. I have a cheap digital that I don’t entirely trust. If there are any suggestions for getting a nice one that is reliable and can take readings at mash temp that would be great to hear. What kinds of filtration devices would you recommend?
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I have the Milwaukee MW102 that’s common and gets good reviews. But you still have to cool samples to room temp.

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B001DTNDME/?tag=skimlinks_replacement-20

I use an RO system. My municipal water has a lot of chlorine and I wanted full control over my profiles.

I got a version of this one:
http://www.buckeyehydro.com/premium-ro-systems/

I think for your wallets sake...just try a brew with store bought distilled or RO (sold in grocery stores sometimes). Brew the beer the same exact way you were doing it and see how it turns out.

Then you’ll know if it’s your water or not. Then adjust from there. If it’s the water...then you know your solution.

If not then, and you still need help, give us a full run down of your entire recipe and process from grain to glass.
 
Something I have noticed: If I buy an amazing IPA in a can, like Treehouse, Alchemist, Sloop, others, I can age the beer for even 3 or more months, roll it around some, and drink out of the can and it tastes amazing. If I brew an IPA and keg it, it doesn't taste great at 3 months. Would we be able to can or bottle our kegged ipas from the keg using a beergun, etc. at the peak of flavor and expect to be able to drink them months out like that?

just had a couple alchemist crushers from early August. That's like 3.5 months ago, and they have the most amazing intense hop flavor. wish i could replicate that in cans at home!
 
Alchemist in particular focuses on extremely low packaged DO.

I know what you're saying though...it does sometimes seem that bottling off the keg at it's peak could work but I have found that shaking a keg and letting it settle will rejuvenate a good ipa
 
To me, an old heady has more of a hop flavor, which is good, but I prefer that kind of complex yeast and hop commingled flavor. Kind of tough to describe, but it’s there on a fresh NEIPA and not an older one.
 
stickyfinger said:
Something I have noticed: If I buy an amazing IPA in a can, like Treehouse, Alchemist, Sloop, others, I can age the beer for even 3 or more months, roll it around some, and drink out of the can and it tastes amazing. If I brew an IPA and keg it, it doesn't taste great at 3 months. Would we be able to can or bottle our kegged ipas from the keg using a beergun, etc. at the peak of flavor and expect to be able to drink them months out like that?!
Click to expand...

There is a brewer on HBT who is fastidious with low packaged oxygen and he couldn't get a perfect result with home canning. If you were to just use a beer gun I doubt the packaged O2 would be low enough.

My pale ales and IPAs and don't have major flavour fall off. You need to get O2 as low as possible and it takes a change in process. Closed loop transfers to fully purged keg (not just with purging with bottled CO2), spund with gravity points left (don't carbonate with bottled gas as it has a portion of oxygen in it), and keep your keg and CO2 lines disconnected when not in use as the lines are oxygen permeable.

Other users will come in an say you don't need to do the above but if you want that fresh flavour for months on end then get the packaged O2 as low as you can.
 
Iseneye said:
There is a brewer on HBT who is fastidious with low packaged oxygen and he couldn't get a perfect result with home canning. If you were to just use a beer gun I doubt the packaged O2 would be low enough.

My pale ales and IPAs and don't have major flavour fall off. You need to get O2 as low as possible and it takes a change in process. Closed loop transfers to fully purged keg (not just with purging with bottled CO2), spund with gravity points left (don't carbonate with bottled gas as it has a portion of oxygen in it), and keep your keg and CO2 lines disconnected when not in use as the lines are oxygen permeable.

Other users will come in an say you don't need to do the above but if you want that fresh flavour for months on end then get the packaged O2 as low as you can.
Click to expand...

I agree with everything but the part of disconnecting the CO2 seems a little too much? Is there so much oxygen over there?
 
leesmith said:
A lower ph at knockout also helps to avoid the astringent aspects of the ph rise that happens with a huge dry hop.
Click to expand...

Interesting -- I have never really measured ph coming out of the kettle. What do you target? Any acid or mineral additions in the boil to achieve this?
 
If you have gotten your post mash/pre boil ph around 5.2 you should get around 5.1 to 5.0 at the end. Which is good.

You can add acid in small additions and test and repeat as needed. Phosphoric acid would be ideal since it has no flavor contributions....but I have used lactic and found no flavor impacts and it was above the recommended 3% dosage for the entire brew.

I have yet to mess with ph at the end of the whirlpool but there may be some benefit as whirlpool additions could bounce that ph back up also.
 
stickyfinger said:
Something I have noticed: If I buy an amazing IPA in a can, like Treehouse, Alchemist, Sloop, others, I can age the beer for even 3 or more months, roll it around some, and drink out of the can and it tastes amazing. If I brew an IPA and keg it, it doesn't taste great at 3 months. Would we be able to can or bottle our kegged ipas from the keg using a beergun, etc. at the peak of flavor and expect to be able to drink them months out like that?

just had a couple alchemist crushers from early August. That's like 3.5 months ago, and they have the most amazing intense hop flavor. wish i could replicate that in cans at home!
Click to expand...

That doesn't surprise me. I remember watching a youtube video of a presentation that Jon gave where he talked about someone testing the packaged beer with a DO meter and thinking the meter was broken as the levels were so low. While people like to throw his beers into the "NEIPA" bucket I always found them more like a "best of both worlds" IPA. They are very dry with higher bitterness than a lot of the beers that have been come to be associated with the style. They are far from "soft and pillowy" mouthfeel that people often think of when they are talking about this style. Not that it really matters. Either way the beers are terrific.
 
I brewed a smash neipa last week with the last bit of grain and flaked oats I had left and some exp. grapefruit hops.
It was just a gallon batch but I used almost an oz of the hops at flameout and after ferment added another .75 oz.
It tasted nice before dry hop.
If I like it after I think i'll do a full batch with this grain bill.
 
leesmith said:
If you have gotten your post mash/pre boil ph around 5.2 you should get around 5.1 to 5.0 at the end. Which is good.

You can add acid in small additions and test and repeat as needed. Phosphoric acid would be ideal since it has no flavor contributions....but I have used lactic and found no flavor impacts and it was above the recommended 3% dosage for the entire brew.

I have yet to mess with ph at the end of the whirlpool but there may be some benefit as whirlpool additions could bounce that ph back up also.
Click to expand...

What would be impacted if let’s say your PH after mashing was below 5.1? Like low to mid 4?
 
Given that Wyeast provide some of the most popular NEIPA yeasts, Suregork's update of his family tree with the latest sequencing results of Wyeast and dry strains may be of interest.

1318 is in the same subgroup as 1098 and WLP017 Whitbread II, whilst 1968 is actually closer to Conan than it is to WLP002.

May provide some inspiration for some alternative yeasts if you're wanting to try something different in your NEIPAs.
 
MistaCitra said:
What would be impacted if let’s say your PH after mashing was below 5.1? Like low to mid 4?
Click to expand...

You'll possibly get lower hop utilization, reduced head retention, and a thinner beer.
Shooting for a ph of 5.3-5.4 in the mash and then adding acid to reduce to 5.2 at the beginning of the boil would be a good plan.
 
Ok guys, help me to understand.
I used exp. grapefruit hops for this at 17.1% AA.
The beer out of the fermentor with the flame out additions tasted fantastic.
But after dry hopping......too MUCH hops for me.
Burping them and can't stand that.
guess i'm just not a super hoppy kind of guy.

If I just stuck with the flame out additions of 4 oz. of exp grapefruit should i even bother using this grain bill or just go for something simpler?
Like just 2-row and flaked oats because the grain bill in this is more geared towards lots of hops?

Or is it the high AA% hops throwing it off?
 
popquizkid said:
Next time I brew this I am going to grab samples at end of boil and again after whirlpool additions so I can get some measurements.
Click to expand...

So I did just this with a very similar recipe that I brewed yesterday. Interesting enough the numbers didn't move very much:

mash ph : 5.23
knockout ph : 5.26
post whirlppol ph (after chilling) : 5.25
 

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