No Flavor from Flavor Hop Additions

[PlinyTheMiddleAged]

Well, I'm getting closer at making a decent IPA. My last attempt was a Pliny the Elder clone using Vinnie's original posted recipe. Bitterness is there as well as aroma, but the flavor just wasn't there (I did a side by side comparison with a real, fresh Pliny).

Here's the hop additions - I used all pellet hops in a 6 gallon batch (with trub and hop losses, it's 5 into the keg):
3.5 oz Columbus at 90 minutes
0.75 oz Columbus at 45 minutes
1 oz Simcoe at 30 minutes
1 oz Centennial and 2.5 oz Simcoe at flameout
Dry hop additions were:
14 day additions
1 oz Centennial
1 oz Columbus
1 oz Simcoe
5 day additions
0.25 oz Centennial
0.25 oz Columbus
0.25 oz Simcoe

I suspect that I'm not getting a lot of flavor from my flameout additions. I think I'm just getting bittering from them. Basically, for those additions, I turn off the gas and dump the pellets in immediately and then start cooling in an ice bath. It probably takes me close to 10 minutes to get the wort below 180°F. So, IPA Experts, does spending more time at elevated temps skew my beers away from hop flavors and more towards hop bittering?

And what does "flameout addition" mean to you? Cool to 170°F, add hops, and hold for X minutes? Cool to 140°F, add hops, and hold for X minutes?

As an aside, I did experiment with a couple of immersion chillers yesterday - one in a bucket of ice water and the other in 5 gallons of boiling water. Running water through the chillers brought temps down to about 160°F in less than 2 minutes. Am I on the right track with this or do I just try again and see for myself?

Thanks in advance for your help! These forums are great!

 

[eric19312]

I cool my wort to about 185 with my chiller before adding hops. I turn off the chiller and wirlpool for 20-30 minutes at that temperature before turning chiller back on.

 

[ncbrewer]

I add the flameout hops at about 185 also, but then let it stand, covered, for 30 minutes before starting to cool. I think being covered helps prevent evaporation of the oils. See this article: http://byo.com/component/k2/item/2808-hop-stands

 

[slym2none]

I always thought "add at flameout" meant just that - turn the flame off, make your addition.

 

[d3track]

Possibly a water adjustment?

 

[btbnl]

Flameout is just what it says ... when you turn the flame out. What other people are describing is a hop-stand. In either case you won't be getting any significant bittering from the late hops - isomerization of the alpha acids takes lots of heat and time, hence the long boil.

 

[ArcLight]

1. Make sure you keep the pot covered. I give it 20-30 minutes at 180-185F.

2. I would hold off the ice at first. You will get a rapid temperature drop without ice, so don't waste it. Let the water bath warm up, dump out the warm water, and replace with cooler water. When the lions share of the heat is extracted, and the wort is close to 100 degrees, then use Ice.

 

[oljimmy]

If you're cooling to 180F that fast, then yeah, the IBU addition will be fairly minimal. Certainly not enough to make a significant difference to a brew that does a 90 minute boil with 3.5 oz columbus! That's already a lot of bittering, obviously. If you were going from 212 to 180 in, say, 45 minutes, then you would indeed get a fair bit of alpha acid isomerization, if my understanding of the science is right.

Personally, I'm debating dropping flameouts from my IPA process. If I want isomerization and flavor, I'll boil. If I want aroma, I'll hop-stand at 160-170F and dry hop. Flameouts seem like an inefficient way of achieving both, and thus a way of not really achieving either.

 

[PlinyTheMiddleAged]

Flameout is just what it says ... when you turn the flame out. What other people are describing is a hop-stand. In either case you won't be getting any significant bittering from the late hops - isomerization of the alpha acids takes lots of heat and time, hence the long boil.

Agreed - perhaps my flameout additions aren't getting isomerized, but my 45 minute and 30 minute additions are effectively 55 and 40 minute additions. At least that was my thought process.

Possibly a water adjustment?

This is a possibility. This was an extract batch - I've also been trying to address a haze issue so I took a step back from all grain. I used all distilled water with a few grams of gypsum to bump up the sulfate level.

Any other ideas why I'm not getting significant hop flavor out of the large hop additions? And where is the line usually drawn between bittering and flavor additions - I always thought it was at about 30 minutes.

Thanks again!

 

[PlinyTheMiddleAged]

Personally, I'm debating dropping flameouts from my IPA process. If I want isomerization and flavor, I'll boil. If I want aroma, I'll hop-stand at 160-170F and dry hop. Flameouts seem like an inefficient way of achieving both, and thus a way of not really achieving either.

Oljimmy,

Where do you draw the line (in time) between bittering and flavor additions? In other words, if I wanted to increase hop flavor, what would I adjust in the above hop additions - for example, would I increase the 30 minute addition to two oz of Simcoe? Or would I increase the flameout additions?

Cheers!

 

[azazel1024]

What I've generally heard and what I seem to have experienced is most of your flavor is in the 10-20 minutes additions. Longer and you are shifting much more towards bittering, shorter and you are shifting more towards aroma. That doesn't mean you aren't getting any flavor in shorter or longer additions, but that at least seems to be where the sweet spot is.

I haven't played with identical recipes but changing when the hop additions are to experimentally verify this, but in my home cooked recipes where I have additions in that 10-20 minute range, I tend to notice the hop flavors from that variety a fair amount and less so longer/shorter.

If you were looking for straight up flavor, I'd personally consider that cascade and simcoe flame out additions at 5-10 minutes followed by the slower cooling method you are using now.

Also, how much is "a few grams". Like 4-8 grams, or like dozen or more?

It could also be that with distilled water and ONLY adding gypsum you are throwing things off without any other mineral additions.

 

[PlinyTheMiddleAged]

Azazel,

The additions to the distilled water were gypsum only - on the order of 4 grams for the batch. I'll probably trying dosing a glass with some calcium chloride to see if that improves the flavor at all. Basically, what I'm noticing is a "flatness" in both the hop flavor and the malt as well. I'll see what bumping the chloride does. I was thinking that since I was using extract and had no idea what the extract manufacturer baked into extract, that I'd take a minimalist approach. Maybe you and d3track are on to something...

Thanks!

 

[azazel1024]

I'd give that a shot. Just a tiny bit of calcium chloride might do a fair amount. That and maybe dropping that flame out addition in a few minutes before flame out might help too.

 

[oljimmy]

I think that Azazel is right about the bittering/flavor line, though I'm only 7 IPAs in or so and don't have the extensive personal experience to back that up. It's just what all the reliable sources say.

However, I do am less confident about the C. Chloride thing... I have friends who make phenomenal IPAs with just distilled water and gypsum, and it just seems unlikely that a single element in your water (other than sulfate) is going to make or break an IPA. You're describing a "flatness" that could be the result of 100 different things, from minor oxidation during packaging to slight under-attenuation to old extract.

Also I now see that you're comparing to an actual bottle of Pliny... pro breweries often have access to techniques and technologies that are WAY beyond your means as a simple homebrewer. It might be slightly unrealistic to expect the same freshness and punchy aroma that a professional brewery can achieve.

 

[m00ps]

I'd be willing to bet that oxidation is the main thing happening here. Maybe all the combined oxygen exposure during the transfer to bottling bucket, and two dry hopping stages is adding up. How careful are you about exposing the beer when you dry hop or bottle?

I know that the second I started kegging my IPAs, they actually tasted fresher than what I can buy off the shelves. Usually because by the time anything gets out to my store in KY, its at least 1-2 months out

 

[zwiller]

Personally, I prefer hop stands at the higher temps >185F. I do account for bitterness though... I think hotter favors flavor and cooler, aroma.

pH is a big player too. Not an issue with distilled, but if you are using tap water be sure to acidify sparge or hoppiness is muddled and beer is "tubby" or kinda flat tasting.

 

[gotbags-10]

The funny thing about the 20min flavor additions is you have beers like Heady Topper that have no boil hops only a hop shot for bittering and then whirlpool additions and massive dryhopping

 

[PlinyTheMiddleAged]

I'd give that a shot. Just a tiny bit of calcium chloride might do a fair amount. That and maybe dropping that flame out addition in a few minutes before flame out might help too.

I tried adding CaCl to a glass of beer - about 0.1 grams in 12 oz (approximately 1 gram per gallon equivalent). It did bring up the maltiness slightly.

I'd be willing to bet that oxidation is the main thing happening here. Maybe all the combined oxygen exposure during the transfer to bottling bucket, and two dry hopping stages is adding up. How careful are you about exposing the beer when you dry hop or bottle?

It's not oxidation. I've beaten that problem in to the ground. After oxygenating the wort prior to pitching yeast, the beer doesn't see oxygen again. I pressure transfer from the conical into a CO2 purged keg (fill with sanitizer and empty via CO2). Beer was carbonated at serving pressure.

Looks like I should mess around with the timing on my hop additions to try to highlight the flavor I'm looking for.

Thanks azazel, m00ps, and everyone else for your advice. I'll keep working at it!

 

[azazel1024]

My pleasure. Its a constant learning experience. Which I think has half of what I love about brewing.