Newbie here!

[CthulhuBrew33]

Hi there! newbie here with one major question that has been keeping me from getting started!

say i plan to really only brew Saisons and belgian goldens, would it be unwise to try for one on my very first go around? also have to possibility to use an extract kit for my first go but dont really know if ill want to drink gallons of this extract pale.

any help/input is appreciated!

 

[dawn_kiebawls]

First off, welcome to the forum! I started off brewing Saisons because for one, they're delicious, and two, they like to be hot when they ferment so you don't need a fermentation chamber/swamp cooler to keep a bucket cool. Typical ales want to be somewhere about 65F or so when fermenting, but Saisons are regularly left in garages to hit 85-90F. With as versatile as Saison recipes are and the fact that they can take the heat (read: easy to practice temp control on with little risk of off-flavors) I say go for it!

Take very detailed notes, dont drink on brew day until you're chilling your wort, read a lot and ask questions. Cheers!

 

[IslandLizard]

Welcome to HBT!

You don't need to buy a 5 gallon ingredients "kit." You can buy loose ingredients instead.
Although there are 1 gallon kits around, they're relatively (very) expensive for the amount of beer you get. Quality varies widely too.

Here's my recommendation:
Find a Saison recipe you want to try, there are many around. You can browse or search HBT's own Homebrew Ale Recipe Database.
Here are the results for Saisons.

If you have a local home brew store (LHBS) you can buy loose ingredients to brew any size you want, 1 or 2 gallons if you want. You can also mail order those ingredients if you don't have a local resource. Or buy a 5 gallon kit and only brew half, or less.

Saisons are all about yeast and yeast character, you need to use a Saison yeast to really get the Saison flavor. Belle Saison is a dry yeast, easy to use for a beginner, and makes an awesome Saison. Ferment warm, 80-85F. I put a heating pad around mine.

Mind, using all dry malt extract (DME) has the advantage over liquid malt extract (LME), as you can weigh or measure out just enough for your size recipe. The liquid extracts really should be used up within a few weeks after opening, and stored in the fridge during that time.

But... before you start, read up on how to brew beer... Here on HBT and elsewhere.
Here's an old online site for a quick overview: how to brew
His book is in it's 4th Ed. now, modernized and updated. Well worth reading if you're serious about brewing.

Homebrewing is a wonderful hobby, enjoy!

 

[CthulhuBrew33]

Thanks for the input guys! Thinking I want to try for a rye saison with honey and lime.
So would there be a good setup I could buy ingredients wise to get that going ASAP?
still gotta acquire decent sized boiling kettle and fermenter but if I can set my sights on an ingredients list I know I’ll have more encouragement to get the rest together faster.
Thinking I may want to do an extract brew for the first one for simplicities sake but also potentially some grain steeping.
Any help putting together the basis of a recipe/ingredients list is appreciated!

 

[dawn_kiebawls]

Thanks for the input guys! Thinking I want to try for a rye saison with honey and lime.
So would there be a good setup I could buy ingredients wise to get that going ASAP?
still gotta acquire decent sized boiling kettle and fermenter but if I can set my sights on an ingredients list I know I’ll have more encouragement to get the rest together faster.
Thinking I may want to do an extract brew for the first one for simplicities sake but also potentially some grain steeping.
Any help putting together the basis of a recipe/ingredients list is appreciated!

If I were you I would start with a simpler recipe. A honey, rye lime saison sounds interesting but the reason I say to start slow is that to be honest, your first brew will not turn out how you want it to (usually, unless your intent is to just make beer and get drunk).

Start with a simple grain (or extract and specialty grain steep) bill, a single strain of yeast and a note pad (I can not stress how important detailed notes are, especially at the beginning). Brew a 'regular' or 'boring' tried and true recipe at first to get the feel for the process and all equipment involved. Keep excellent notes from the brew day but also tasting notes. If you have a 'simple' recipe, it's a lot easier for people to help you diagnose any off-flavors in the final product than if you have a complicated recipe when you're still learning the ropes. Just my $0.02

I started with a brown ale extract kit that turned out like trash but it got me drunk so I got cocky thinking I learned from the mistakes I made. I decided to create my own recipe full of all sorts of specialty grains, honey and odd combinations of hops trying to make a Belgian IPA. It turned out even worse than the Brown Ale and had so many off flavors nothing could be diagnosed so I had very little to learn from other than than I had no idea what I was doing (which was a very valuable lesson).

I will tell you, if you decide to go on with your recipe. Honey is a VERY hard flavor to get into a finished beer because it will ferment 100% (ESPECIALLY with saison yeast). Pure, raw honey is best added AFTER primary fermentation is complete to retain the little bit of flavor that will still be present. Honey malt can be used with some success but I have yet to use it so I don't have any good amounts to suggest.

Let us know how you choose to move forward or if you have any more questions. Cheers!

 

[CthulhuBrew33]

If I were you I would start with a simpler recipe. A honey, rye lime saison sounds interesting but the reason I say to start slow is that to be honest, your first brew will not turn out how you want it to (usually, unless your intent is to just make beer and get drunk).

Start with a simple grain (or extract and specialty grain steep) bill, a single strain of yeast and a note pad (I can not stress how important detailed notes are, especially at the beginning). Brew a 'regular' or 'boring' tried and true recipe at first to get the feel for the process and all equipment involved. Keep excellent notes from the brew day but also tasting notes. If you have a 'simple' recipe, it's a lot easier for people to help you diagnose any off-flavors in the final product than if you have a complicated recipe when you're still learning the ropes. Just my $0.02

I started with a brown ale extract kit that turned out like trash but it got me drunk so I got cocky thinking I learned from the mistakes I made. I decided to create my own recipe full of all sorts of specialty grains, honey and odd combinations of hops trying to make a Belgian IPA. It turned out even worse than the Brown Ale and had so many off flavors nothing could be diagnosed so I had very little to learn from other than than I had no idea what I was doing (which was a very valuable lesson).

I will tell you, if you decide to go on with your recipe. Honey is a VERY hard flavor to get into a finished beer because it will ferment 100% (ESPECIALLY with saison yeast). Pure, raw honey is best added AFTER primary fermentation is complete to retain the little bit of flavor that will still be present. Honey malt can be used with some success but I have yet to use it so I don't have any good amounts to suggest.

Let us know how you choose to move forward or if you have any more questions. Cheers!

Yeah, I figured that would be too complicated for a first go.
maybe my dreams of starting with Saisons So I don’t have to spend all the time and money making beer I don’t really want to drink to get good enough to make saisons are a little dumb.
Maybe I’ll just brew a bunch of pale ales for now.

 

[Velnerj]

I would answer based off of the amount of study/research you've put into brewing. There's a lot to learn at the beginning and there are plenty of resources available (many of them are even free).

If you put in the time to learn about yeast, fermentation, flavor characteristics, ingredient amounts/ratios, gravity, attenuation etc. Etc. Then there's no reason why you couldn't start with a rye lime saison.

On the other hand, if you're not willing to put in that much effort (there's probably over 100 hours you could put in), and learning by doing is your thing. Starting simple will increase your chances of success, and that will just encourage you more to travel down the long rabbit hole, I mean, hobby of brewing.

Good luck and don't forget it's just a hobby.

 

[WinterWarlock]

I say shoot for the Saison. It's totally possible to have a slamdunk for your first attempt - my first beer was awesome and I was instantly hooked on the hobby. Not sure why so many people are reporting subpar beer for their first attempts. Go with a nice liquid yeast like Wyeast 3711 and some Styrian Goldings. Extract will do if all grain isn't an option. These are simple beers as far as recipes go. Do it!!

 

[CthulhuBrew33]

I would answer based off of the amount of study/research you've put into brewing. There's a lot to learn at the beginning and there are plenty of resources available (many of them are even free).

If you put in the time to learn about yeast, fermentation, flavor characteristics, ingredient amounts/ratios, gravity, attenuation etc. Etc. Then there's no reason why you couldn't start with a rye lime saison.

On the other hand, if you're not willing to put in that much effort (there's probably over 100 hours you could put in), and learning by doing is your thing. Starting simple will increase your chances of success, and that will just encourage you more to travel down the long rabbit hole, I mean, hobby of brewing.

Good luck and don't forget it's just a hobby.

Thanks. I have put in a ton of time and energy into studying it and all the things you mentioned, have been for quite some time now but just finally decided I couldn’t hold out any longer since most of my other hobbies/things I love were ruined due to COVID-19 killing my business and therefore my financial ability to support my hobbies and I spend most of my expendable money on beer anyway, so i figure making it would give me a new hobby I’ve been interested in for years as well as help me always have some beer around to drink!

I am an extremely science-minded person and have been pouring over several brewing books I acquired a couple weeks ago including “How to Brew” by John Palmer as well as a few books on farmhouse ales, sours, and yeast.

I am a very hands on person though and can follow a recipe to the T due to years of work in laboratory settings, scientific glass labware manufacturing facilities, as well as restaurants!

just need to get the few pieces I need to get started and I’m sure after a batch or two I’ll already be bored and want to go crazy with my ideas.
Think I’m going to go for a American pale ale or an American IPA For the first one.
Want to use Mosaic and Hüell Melon hops.
Thinking light LME?
Yeast - ?
will probably have to do the “Palmer Brewing Method” for the first one as I doubt my dumb electric stovetop will get 5 gallons of ANYTHING to a rolling boil. Haha
Idk. I just want to get brewing already.

 

[Velnerj]

Thanks. I have put in a ton of time and energy into studying it and all the things you mentioned, have been for quite some time now but just finally decided I couldn’t hold out any longer since most of my other hobbies/things I love were ruined due to COVID-19 killing my business and therefore my financial ability to support my hobbies and I spend most of my expendable money on beer anyway, so i figure making it would give me a new hobby I’ve been interested in for years as well as help me always have some beer around to drink!

I am an extremely science-minded person and have been pouring over several brewing books I acquired a couple weeks ago including “How to Brew” by John Palmer as well as a few books on farmhouse ales, sours, and yeast.

I am a very hands on person though and can follow a recipe to the T due to years of work in laboratory settings, scientific glass labware manufacturing facilities, as well as restaurants!

just need to get the few pieces I need to get started and I’m sure after a batch or two I’ll already be bored and want to go crazy with my ideas.
Think I’m going to go for a American pale ale or an American IPA For the first one.
Want to use Mosaic and Hüell Melon hops.
Thinking light LME?
Yeast - ?
will probably have to do the “Palmer Brewing Method” for the first one as I doubt my dumb electric stovetop will get 5 gallons of ANYTHING to a rolling boil. Haha
Idk. I just want to get brewing already.

Looks like you're on the right track. The sky is the limit then. I'd say go for what is going to give you maximum enjoyment. I mean that both in the finished product and the process.

I'd suggest looking for recipes that are similar to the one you envision then either copy a recipe or adapt to your liking.

 

[Beermeister32]

Start with the simple recipe. As in all things you learn in life, start with the simple and then move to the complex once you master the basics. I would recommend the brown ale mentioned above to learn the process. Save the wild recipes for later once you have the basics down.

 

[IslandLizard]

Think I’m going to go for a American pale ale or an American IPA For the first one.

A simple Saison is no more difficult to brew than a Pale Ale.
In many ways it's much easier. If you've read about Saisons, you know where and how they originated. The style is very wide, pretty much anything goes. As a bonus they can be fermented at a wider range of temps, although keeping temps steady is recommended.

For your first or first few brews using extracts makes sense. Using extracts takes a major step out of the brewing process: the mash, a science by itself. Doing so, you can then concentrate on:

1. Selecting (and treating) your brewing water
2. Your brew equipment requirements, such as kettle size, shape, material, ports, stirring spoon, etc.
3. Heating source, heating your brewing water, and how much
4. Steeping a pound or so of (milled) steeping grains
5. Bringing the wort to a boil, splatters, boil overs, dealing with steam (if indoors), etc.
6. Following the recipe, adding extracts, hops at different timings, kettle finings
7. Chilling the batch
8. Cleaning and sanitizing your fermenter and everything that touches your chilled wort or beer
9. Transfer of the wort to the fermenter in a sanitary way
10. Topping up if you did a partial boil (smallish kettle, or low power heating source)
11. Aerating (or oxygenating) the wort
12. Pitching (dry) yeast
13. Controlling fermentation temps
14. Taking gravity readings
15. Packaging your beer, again another process in itself

Enjoy that first homebrew Saison! It will be a reference, a base to explore and improve upon. Saisons are very rewarding, and good summer drinks. They can be mixed with fruits, juices, and other things.

 

[IslandLizard]

Also...
For all grain brewing you really need to do full boils. That means a kettle large enough to hold the full volume of pre-boil wort leaving at least an inch of headspace, 2-3 inches or more is better/safer. For a 5.5 gallon batch that's 6.5-7 gallons pre-boil.
You heating source needs to be powerful enough to bring that to boil and keep it there for an hour.

Then that whole 5.5-6 gallon volume needs to be chilled down to fermentation temps, a 130-140F drop.

When using extract, you can do partial boils, only boiling half or even less of the volume.
A less powerful heating source (an average kitchen stove) can be used successfully to accomplish such.

It's also much easier and faster to chill a smaller volume. After sticking the kettle in the sink or tub with cold water to chill, add ice cold water to bring down those last 40-30-some degrees, and again add ice cold water to your fermenter when topping up to your batch volume.

 

[CthulhuBrew33]

@IslandLizard Thanks for your input! The major two things on that list I still have to figure out are numbers 3 and 7. 3 I figure I can do partial-boil for the first couple batches until I acquire this 10 gal boil kettle on local craigslist and a burner big enough to handle it(therein solving number 3 entirely). 7 is a different beast as I’m sure I’ll just end up buying an immersion wort chiller early oN but not sure the best/most efficient way to chill without one with the space I have. Ultimately I’d like to setup a smalll space on the patio to do it all complete with burner and everything and possibly even some spent 1/6bbl spent Wood spirit barrels from a local distillery that sells them regularly!But that’s far out.

Also the other major issue is fermentation temp consistency. Until I build a kegerator or something I just have my garage. Another reason I picked Saison to start is not only are they my favorite style but the history and tradition as well. Learning that Davison’s typically ferment at higher temps instantly made perfect sense to me. Think about it, they were left in barrels, in barns, in the countryside. So why wouldn’t my garage be a decent place to mimic that?!
So that is another reason I would also kind of prefer to start with saisons to be perfectly honest. I feel like a major element is already pretty easily handled for me with that knowledge.

 

[IslandLizard]

The major two things on that list I still have to figure out are numbers 3 and 7.

(3)
Have you considered electric?
I use an IC3500 240V countertop induction plate, it's excellent for 5-6 gallon all grain batches. Takes 20 minutes to get 5 gallons of strike water to 175F.

I've done 10-11 gallon ones too, just takes twice as long to heat everything, but keeps the boil fine. I love that plate, and use it for many other cooking processes than just brewing beer. BTW, I'm brewing in the kitchen, the kitchen is mine, I'm the cook mostly. My wife is very fine with that.

For induction you do need a kettle that's induction capable, some stainless is, but not all. If a magnet sticks to the bottom it's induction capable. If it doesn't stick it may still be induction capable, but there's only one way to find out...
Triple ply bottoms help prevent scorching. But so does good stirring.

(7)
An immersion chiller (IC) coil is the simplest in any which way. Counterflow (CFC) is quicker, more efficient, and fairly easy to clean/sanitize, but it requires a pump.

Hydra's and such are IC, using multiple coils in one. They are almost on par with CFC, at about the same cost. You can have 20 oz of hops in your kettle, IC doesn't care. For anything that recirculates or has (narrow) passages such as some CFCs or homebrew class Plate Chillers you need some way to keep hops out of them. Either bagged hops or a hop basket, or some other way to keep them from exiting the kettle is mandatory. And a PITA.

You should brew a few times so you know much better what your needs are, equipment and space wise.

10 gallons is a perfect kettle size for 5-6 gallon all grain batches, but generally too small for most BIAB mashes, as it has to hold the grist and all the water. A hybrid-BIAB process may work fine with that though.

 

[IslandLizard]

So that is another reason I would also kind of prefer to start with saisons to be perfectly honest. I feel like a major element is already pretty easily handled for me with that knowledge.

As I said before, I don't see any problem with starting with Saisons, even from extract. That's where your love for beer is, so do it!

80-85F (even 90F) is usually fine for most Saison yeasts, but a 20F temp drop overnight can stall them, some yeasts do so more than others. For that reason we generally like to keep ferm temps as consistent as possible, especially during the critical first few days to a week. I have an old fridge that doesn't chill anymore, so that "hot fridge" is perfect for warm fermentations, such as Saisons. I have a small space heater in there.

With some of my Saisons I start out at lowish 70-72F for a couple days then ramp up the heat gradually to finish, and condition.

 

[CthulhuBrew33]

Thanks for the pointers!
induction could work for me but I’d rather use fire. Just personal preference. I am a Glassblower so I understand fire very well and am more comfortable with it than electronics, that being said, my kitchen stovetop is an IR induction burner and that’s what I’ll have to use for the first couple. It doesn’t really do a good job at anything it’s supposed to, but it’s what I’ve got for now.
Thinking about grabbing this kit and racking onto limes and honey; Lemondrop Saison Extract Beer Recipe Kit
Seems like a fairly simple kit and pretty straight forward.
Just gotta find me a nice 7gal carboy now and hopefully will be brewing before the end of the month

 

[IslandLizard]

Thinking about grabbing this kit and racking onto limes and honey; Lemondrop Saison Extract Beer Recipe Kit
Seems like a fairly simple kit and pretty straight forward.

Yeah! ^
Kit instructions are also extremely generic. And notoriously outdated.
Get your pointers, amendments, corrections and more accurate instructions from Palmer's How to Brew, 4th Ed.

Also read up around here about brewing extracts, partial boils especially, since that's what you'll be doing right now.

For example, don't boil all that extract for an hour in 2-3 gallons of water, use only half (or better yet, only 1/4) then add the balance of the extract right after flameout. As long as it all dissolves (stir!) and stays at 150F (or higher) for 5 minutes it's all pasteurized.

Regardless of what instructions say or claim, omit secondaries!
No need to rack anything after xx days or x weeks, unless you're transferring it to a bottling bucket (so can bottle it right away) or a keg.
IOW: Let your beer be where it is. You want to add hops, some fruit, honey, etc., add it to the fermenter your beer is in.

There are very, very few exceptions where a secondary is useful or even necessary, all well outside beginning brewers territory, and none come from a kit.

Pretty much everything will sink to the bottom after a few days to a week.
Some fruit, cinnamon stick, Vanilla bean pieces, etc. may stay afloat though. When you see that, make sure to gently swirl the fermenter every day to douse the floaters with beer. That's to help extract the goodness from them while preventing mold and other bugs from growing on it.

 

[CthulhuBrew33]

Yeah! ^
Kit instructions are also extremely generic. And notoriously outdated.
Get your pointers, amendments, corrections and more accurate instructions from Palmer's How to Brew, 4th Ed.

Also read up around here about brewing extracts, partial boils especially, since that's what you'll be doing right now.

For example, don't boil all that extract for an hour in 2-3 gallons of water, use only half (or better yet, only 1/4) then add the balance of the extract right after flameout. As long as it all dissolves (stir!) and stays at 150F (or higher) for 5 minutes it's all pasteurized.

Regardless of what instructions say or claim, omit secondaries!
No need to rack anything after xx days or x weeks, unless you're ready to bottle or keg, right away.
IOW: Let your beer be where it is. You want to add hops, some fruit, honey, etc., add it to the fermenter your beer is in.

There are very, very few exceptions where a secondary is useful or even necessary, all well outside beginning brewers territory, and none come from a kit.

Pretty much everything will sink to the bottom after a few days to a week.
Some fruit, cinnamon stick, Vanilla bean pieces, etc. may stay afloat though. When you see that, make sure to gently swirl the fermenter every day to douse the floaters with beer. That's to help extract the goodness from them while preventing mold and other bugs from growing on it.

That’s more what I meant. Misused the term racking here I guess.
I figure the limes, honey, lime juice, and probably some extra hops all go in the fermenter.
literally reading through my copy of How to Brew as I type this!
And yeah I will be following the book moreso than kit instructions! Haha
Thanks so much for your help and encouragement. Hopefully will get a chance to brew up a batch very soon!

 

[bracconiere]

Thinking I want to try for a rye saison with honey and lime.

off-topic, i know....but Welcome! And that sounds really good! you'd probably have to zest a lot of limes for that....

 

[IslandLizard]

literally reading through my copy of How to Brew as I type this!
And yeah I will be following the book moreso than kit instructions! Haha

 

[TsunamiMike]

@CthulhuBrew33 I am right with you, love saisons but I personally wanted to dive into the hobby hands on to understand what I REALLY need for the hobby to start. I started slow with the Brewers Best Beast Kit, I have used the Brewers Best 5 gallon Extract kits to start off in hopes of after a year of brewing to upgrade to an all grain Anvil setup.

Anyhow @IslandLizard lizard is spot on above, as after i brewed my first beer <Watermelon Wheat> I realized that when cooling your wort an "ice bath" is a waste of close to 90-120 minutes to cool from 210ish to 70ish degrees. So I bought an immersion Wort Chiller now it is down to under 15 minutes. Then my second beer a Brewers Best Cream Ale, I found out that fermenting temperature is important as if its gets to high out of the yeasts range it will be a disaster. Also that the water that you use is important, so I went down the "water" rabbit hole of brewing and just got out of the hole on Saturday. Third brew was a Brewers Best Summer Ale with spice additions which I brewed last night, again finding that I need a longer hose on the outlet of my wort chiller as it needs to reach another location.

I am definitely enjoying it and appreciate the simplicity of the extract kits as I learn more about the craft. BTW I have heard great things about Brewers Best Blood Orange Saison I have attached the link to the instruction so you can see the ingredients and instructions.

Good Luck!!

 

[fourfarthing]

@CthulhuBrew33 welcome. Not sure how simple you are willing to go on your first brew, but this is a delightful and very basic saison recipe that makes great beer. Given the limited ingredients, you can focus on process too. Also, I could easily see converting this to extract with Light DME and not losing a ton though I am not an extract guy per se.

https://beerandbrewing.com/suarez-family-brewery-kinda-classic-a-modern-saison-recipe/

 

[IslandLizard]

@CthulhuBrew33 welcome. Not sure how simple you are willing to go on your first brew, but this is a delightful and very basic saison recipe that makes great beer. Given the limited ingredients, you can focus on process too. Also, I could easily see converting this to extract with Light DME and not losing a ton though I am not an extract guy per se.

https://beerandbrewing.com/suarez-family-brewery-kinda-classic-a-modern-saison-recipe/

I agree that's a very simple recipe. Since it's hoppy, it would probably qualify as a Grisette, a hoppy Saison. Could probably use some wheat or rye.

It's easily converted to an extract brew, and won't (quite) break the bank:
5-6# of DME, 5 oz of a selection of hops, plus 1/10 oz of Warrior (or Magnum, Nugget, whatever), for bittering.

At my LHBS this is what it would run:

• 2 3#-bags of DME at $14 each: $28
• $12-15 in various hops
• A yeast of choice
• Plus tax

About $50...

Compare to the kit at Northern Brewer:
That $29 NB kit doesn't look like such a bad deal now... especially if you pad the order with other items or another kit to qualify for free shipping. They throw their kits on sale at times too.
We do need to realize, they're not using as much hops (only 2.5 oz), they're always a bit skimpy with those.

 

[IslandLizard]

We really should be talking about what yeast we can recommend to the OP. The pros and cons of the various options.

The information in the Saison article on Maltose Falcons (MF) is not all that informative on what yeast to use, for a first time brewer.

I'm all for recommending Dry Yeast for sake of simplicity. Although pitching a fresh pack of liquid Saison yeast without making a starter first, is a viable option.

I don't quite understand why Belle Saison got such a "meh" rep at that MF link. I was happy with it then. But I haven't used that yeast either since that first Saison I brewed in 2014. I've been using different Saison yeasts ever since, mainly ECY08 and ECY03.

 

[CthulhuBrew33]

We really should be talking about what yeast we can recommend to the OP. The pros and cons of the various options.

The information in the Saison article on Maltose Falcons (MF) is not all that informative on what yeast to use, for a first time brewer.

I'm all for recommending Dry Yeast for sake of simplicity. Although pitching a fresh pack of liquid Saison yeast without making a starter first, is a viable option.

I don't quite understand why Belle Saison got such a "meh" rep at that MF link. I was happy with it then. But I haven't used that yeast either since that first Saison I brewed in 2014. I've been using different Saison yeasts ever since, mainly ECY08 and ECY03.

Thinking I’d be going with white labs French Saison yeast or Belgian Saison Yeast II. And for the DME on that would Light or Maris otter work better?
also how would I go about adding rye?Grain steeping?

 

[IslandLizard]

Thinking I’d be going with white labs French Saison yeast or Belgian Saison Yeast II.

French Saison yeast is not from White Labs, it's a WYeast product, WY3711.
It's a good yeast, a vigorous fermenter, but lacks somewhat in character.

Belgian Saison Yeast II is White Labs WLP566. But it's also a Dupont strain, so it may be as finicky as WLP565 (or the similar WY3724). Neither are suitable for beginners, IMO.

WY3726 is Blaugies and has none of Dupont's quirks. That would be my preference and recommendation here.

Now, are you ordering these yeasts from NB? Shipping liquid yeasts during hot summer months is not advisable. And you would need to make starter ahead of time to prove they weren't killed in transit or cooked in your mailbox.

Do you have a local homebrew shop or source? That would be preferable for the liquid yeast. For dry yeast none of that matter all that much, it's much more resilient.

 

[IslandLizard]

And for the DME on that would Light or Maris otter work better?
also how would I go about adding rye?Grain steeping?

Pilsen Light DME is fine. Don't use Maris Otter DME in a Saison, it's way too malty.
You could use half Pilsen Light DME and half Wheat DME. Wheat gives it a good Saisony flavor, it belongs in Saisons.

No, you can't steep Rye. Neither malt nor (raw) flaked. They need to be properly mashed.

But you could use Rye LME (Liquid Malt Extract), if you can source it, it's not that common.
http://www.brewingwithbriess.com/Products/Extracts.htm#RyeIt contains 20% rye, which is probably plenty in a Saison recipe. If you want 20% rye content you'd need 2 cans. No wheat.

 

[dawn_kiebawls]

French Saison yeast is not from White Labs, it's a WYeast product, WY3711.
It's a good yeast, a vigorous fermenter, but lacks somewhat in character.

WY3726 is Blaugies and has none of Dupont's quirks. That would be my preference and recommendation here.

WY3711 is a monster of a yeast, be ready with a blowoff tube and expect the beer to finish close to 1.000 (or lower, even).

I second the recommendation of WY3726, that is my go to saison strain although I'm out of it at the moment.

I just kegged a saison fermented with WLP590 and have been happy with it. It finished at 1.000 and is throwing a good amount of bubble gum (wasn't the goal, or expected but its nice) with some good citrus notes and slight pepper. I'll likely harvest some of the yeast and keep it in rotation from now on.

 

[bracconiere]

No, you can't steep Rye. Neither malt nor (raw) flaked. They need to be properly mashed.

i got a bag of chocolate rye...probably could steep it...

@CthulhuBrew33 someone else could chime in on this thought....soak the rye malt, until it's saturated, then drain it, and throw it into a low oven until the kernels are at 150f....turn the oven off, let it sit for 30 minutes...then crank the oven to something like 225-250f, for a couple hours....homemade rye light crystal, i've seen a thread on it....i think @seatazzz (did you add a z?) does it, when i make crystal it's just sprouts....


lol, but that's probably harder then a partial mash....(but it would be fun for future rye saisons to dial in the rye flavor!)

 

[CthulhuBrew33]

French Saison yeast is not from White Labs, it's a WYeast product, WY3711.
It's a good yeast, a vigorous fermenter, but lacks somewhat in character.

Belgian Saison Yeast II is White Labs WLP566. But it's also a Dupont strain, so it may be as finicky as WLP565 (or the similar WY3724). Neither are suitable for beginners, IMO.

WY3726 is Blaugies and has none of Dupont's quirks. That would be my preference and recommendation here.

Now, are you ordering these yeasts from NB? Shipping liquid yeasts during hot summer months is not advisable. And you would need to make starter ahead of time to prove they weren't killed in transit or cooked in your mailbox.

Do you have a local homebrew shop or source? That would be preferable for the liquid yeast. For dry yeast none of that matter all that much, it's much more resilient.

https://www.whitelabs.com/yeast-bank/wlp590-french-saison-ale-yeast
everything i buy will be from a local homebrew store when i can. will get this one kit to try out first though from online but no yest so thats fine, just that price seems pretty unbeatable.

as for yeasts i thank you for your recommendation as thats why i posted here before ever even ordering anything. to learn, get opinions, feedback, recommendations etc.
i am looking for that more peppery, almost barnyard funk saison characteristic. i think that would mesh well with rye as well as the balance from the Limes/lime juice and honey.

 

[CthulhuBrew33]

Pilsen Light DME is fine. Don't use Maris Otter DME in a Saison, it's way too malty.
You could use half Pilsen Light DME and half Wheat DME. Wheat gives it a good Saisony flavor, it belongs in Saisons.

No, you can't steep Rye. Neither malt nor (raw) flaked. They need to be properly mashed.

But you could use Rye LME (Liquid Malt Extract), if you can source it, it's not that common.
http://www.brewingwithbriess.com/Products/Extracts.htm#RyeIt contains 20% rye, which is probably plenty in a Saison recipe. If you want 20% rye content you'd need 2 cans. No wheat.

i was thinking about trying to get rye LME for the rye content actually. just made the most sense to me right away. what if i get LME for both the rye and pilsen light? or would doing LME rye and DME light pilsen be fine?

 

[IslandLizard]

i was thinking about trying to get rye LME for the rye content actually. just made the most sense to me right away. what if i get LME for both the rye and pilsen light? or would doing LME rye and DME light pilsen be fine?

Yes, that would be fine. That's what many do, mix and match.

[EDITS]
The link I posted earlier shows 3.3 pound plastic cans of LME. There are many varieties. That's what you usually get from the store, in kits, or mail order.

==> Make sure not to buy pre-hopped malt extracts! They're packaged in the same plastic cans, but are a whole different thing, for a different kind of brewing that doesn't involve a boil.

For many, more commonly used LME varieties, such as Pilsen Light, Golden Light, Sparkling Amber, etc. the store may have large vats from which it fills their own containers, or thick, heavy duty food quality plastic bags.

You can use either DME or LME, and interchange one with the other freely, using this calculator:
https://www.brewersfriend.com/lme-dme-conversion-calculator/
Many extract and partial mash brewers prefer to use DME over LME, as it tends to keep better, years even when stored dry, in well (re-)sealed original bags, without affecting flavor and freshness. It may clump, even when never opened, it's still A-OK. It only takes longer to dissolve when clumped, give it some time, and keep stirring. But the selection/variety of DME is more limited than that of LME.

Then use LME where a DME variety is not available. For example, that Rye LME mentioned before is only available in 3.3 pound cans. There is no dry (DME) variety of that.

Why not always use LME?
LME is like honey, it gets darker with time but also develops a weird old, stale-ish flavor. As long as you can get LME that's known to be fresh (check dates) it should be generally fine. You still don't know how it was stored since manufacturing. Could have been in a hot warehouse for most of its life, until it reached your brew store shelf. Know your store, your supplier.
Any leftovers can be stored refrigerated in the original container closed with the lid it came with. You could cover the surface of the extract with a piece of tripled up plastic wrap or mylar film to further shield it from air (O2) contact. It should be used up within a few weeks, ideally. Perhaps even up to 2-3 months?

 

[CthulhuBrew33]

@CthulhuBrew33

I am definitely enjoying it and appreciate the simplicity of the extract kits as I learn more about the craft. BTW I have heard great things about Brewers Best Blood Orange Saison I have attached the link to the instruction so you can see the ingredients and instructions.

looking at this and this feels almost exactly how i imagine my first one will go. may try using the ratios of this one and just sub LME Rye for the Extra Light, and use DME Light or Extra light instead of the amber. and the honey instead of the candi syrup perhaps? maybe substitute Mandarina Bavaria for the Chinook.

Anyone know if Honey can be subbed for Candi Syrup evenly or what?

 

[VikeMan]

Anyone know if Honey can be subbed for Candi Syrup evenly or what?

In what respect? Honey will (typically) contribute more gravity than Candi Syrup, about 35 PPG vs 32 PPG. Flavorwise, I don't find any of the Candi Syrup colors (from Candi Syrup Inc.) to taste very much like any honey I've had.

 

[CthulhuBrew33]

https://omegayeast.com/yeast/hybrids/saisonsteins-monsteranyone ever use this? its what NB recommends for the second kit im going to order with the Lemondrop Saison and i can get it at my local HBS

In what respect? Honey will (typically) contribute more gravity than Candi Syrup, about 35 PPG vs 32 PPG. Flavorwise, I don't find any of the Candi Syrup colors (from Candi Syrup Inc.) to taste very much like any honey I've had.

yeah i just would prefer to not use Candi Syrup in the brew and im already trying to add in honey so i figured id see if i could add it even exchange or at what ratio i could just sub it in for.

 

[fourfarthing]

https://omegayeast.com/yeast/hybrids/saisonsteins-monsteranyone ever use this? its what NB recommends for the second kit im going to order with the Lemondrop Saison and i can get it at my local HBS

yeah i just would prefer to not use Candi Syrup in the brew and im already trying to add in honey so i figured id see if i could add it even exchange or at what ratio i could just sub it in for.

I used Saisonstein. Its supposed to be the same strain as 3711 (or one of them is). Ferments great, very dry

 

[seatazzz]

i got a bag of chocolate rye...probably could steep it...

@CthulhuBrew33 someone else could chime in on this thought....soak the rye malt, until it's saturated, then drain it, and throw it into a low oven until the kernels are at 150f....turn the oven off, let it sit for 30 minutes...then crank the oven to something like 225-250f, for a couple hours....homemade rye light crystal, i've seen a thread on it....i think @seatazzz (did you add a z?) does it, when i make crystal it's just sprouts....


lol, but that's probably harder then a partial mash....(but it would be fun for future rye saisons to dial in the rye flavor!)

I do make my own crystal but I use already malted two-row to do it. It's really easy, just have to watch the oven temperature during the roasting phase so it doesn't burn (ask me how I know). Stir frequently, keep it not too thick (a nice shallow baking sheet works well) and take it out before it looks too dark; it will continue to darken as it cools, so take it out of the oven when it's a nice brown with no burned bits. The burned bits will more than likely stick to the pan (line with aluminum foil!) and are quite tasty to nibble on once you get the "good" crystal out. Leave in a brown paper bag for a week or so and it's good. @Schlenkerla has a nice writeup on making your own crystal malt, that's where I got my process for it.

 

[bracconiere]

I do make my own crystal but I use already malted two-row to do it. It's really easy, just have to watch the oven temperature during the roasting phase so it doesn't burn (ask me how I know). Stir frequently, keep it not too thick (a nice shallow baking sheet works well) and take it out before it looks too dark; it will continue to darken as it cools, so take it out of the oven when it's a nice brown with no burned bits. The burned bits will more than likely stick to the pan (line with aluminum foil!) and are quite tasty to nibble on once you get the "good" crystal out. Leave in a brown paper bag for a week or so and it's good. @Schlenkerla has a nice writeup on making your own crystal malt, that's where I got my process for it.

hmmm... my understanding, would be, that's more like a dark munich? if you don't mash in the kernel, then there's no carmelized sugar.....(not that munich doesn't make a great beer! but it'd still need at least a partial mash to convert)

been a while since i read your adventures in roasting, i thought you upgraded to an air fryer?


edit: not to totally hijack, but i only subconsiously noticed that phenomenon before....thanks for bringing it to the surface as an actual consious thought!

(i wish there was a way to insert a quote in a edit)

 

[fourfarthing]

Let’s not get too far off topic here guys. I could write paragraphs on how you need wheat to make a Grisette a Grisette but its not the point. OP wants to brew a saison as a newbie. Let’s focus there.