BIAB VS All-In-One System

[Dave77]

Ok, first of all, I'm still a newbie brewer, but am hooked. I've got 5 batches currently on the go at various stages. I started with extract kits and now my last couple of batches were all-grain, using BIAB system.

I was in a local homebrew shop last week, and they have a used Grainfather G30 Connect 110V that's nicely discounted from new, and looks to be in great shape.

Perhaps it's just my 'newbie zeal', but I'm tempted to buy it. But before pulling the trigger I thought I better ask more experienced brewers if it's worth it. So, my question:

1) Is an All-in-One system really better than BIAB, or is mostly just the convenience factor?
2) Will it improve my beer, or is BIAB just as good, assuming I've executed the BIAB process correctly?

Thanks in advance...

 

[riceral]

1) All-in-One systems, at least the ones I'm familiar with, are basically a BIAB. The bag is replaced by a malt pipe. The main advantage I can see that all-in-ones provide is that they are electronic/electrical. That means, I can brew inside when it's raining, snowing (although I live in Florida), hot, cold, etc. Some people use a bag inside the malt pipe or even ditch the malt pipe and use a bag.

Full disclosure: I have an Anvil and really enjoy brewing on it.

2) Improving beer is not necessarily a product of the system you use. Mostly it is through practice/repeat brewing, using quality ingredients, basic skills; paying attention to the basics. People brew very good beer using extract on the stove top and cooling the wort in an ice bath.

If you are happy with the beers you make, continue to use the system (BIAB) you have. Now, if you have some extra money burning a hole in your pocket (not me, but some might), then maybe watch someone brew on an all-in-one system before buying. My LHBS, before they closed, used to give demonstrations on a Grainfather and even rented one out to "known" customers.

Just my 2 cents.

 

[AlexKay]

Waiting for @Bobby_M to come in with the definitive reply...

Also, if you're going to spend a couple or a few hundred bucks on any one single upgrade, make it a chest freezer and a temperature controller.

 

[Bassman2003]

First I would watch some YouTube videos using the GF G30 and see if it is how you would like to brew. Make the brewing process as easy as you can so you can focus on other aspects that are equal or more important like temperature control and yeast handling.

Any way you can make good wort will work, that is brewing. Yeast and temperature control is making beer, which is in many ways more important.

 

[SanPancho]

the comparison you've set up is flawed. @riceral is correct, in terms of brewing techniques, they are both basically BIAB- you use a single vessel and remove the grains from the wort, not the wort from the grains. both have one inherent structural flaw- flour and other grain particles remaining during the boil. there is simply no way around this without drastic measures. its just inherent in typical BIAB/AIO type setups. can you still make good beer? of course.

what you're really talking about here is a difference in cost vs convenience. you can biab for less than an AIO system for sure. but the AIO is nice as its just one unit- fairly easy to clean, takes up less space, etc. etc.

personally, if you're not sure, i wouldnt blow my whole wad on a fancy GF unit. try a much cheaper AIO if you want to see if you like it. the "mash and boil" units from morebeer are the cheapest reliable ones you can get and are fairly similar to the earlier brewzilla units. or pick up a used brewzilla, anvil, etc.

agreed with @AlexKay that temp control chamber is more "important" than brewhouse gear for beer quality. start there if you dont have that capability yet.

 

[Brew_Dude41]

I suggest getting a 240v system either way you go. It takes about an hour for the 110 GF to go from mashout to boiling.
When I am trying to work a brew session in the evenings after work, I can't have that kind of time wrapped up into getting from temp A to boiling.

 

[seatazzz]

My two cents here. I've considered buying an AIO system, but a couple/few things have stopped me. One, money. I have both a traditional 3-vessel system and BIAB (running on the same brewstand which was custom-built for me). I make good beer from either one, which one I use just depends on the recipe, the day, how much time I have in hand. I just can't justify spending $300 or more on another shiny thing. Two, and this is going to sound strange; I think it will take some of the fun out of it. Add water, push buttons. Add grain, push buttons. Pull malt pipe/grain bag, push buttons. Yes I know it's not really that simple, but I like being more hands-on with brewing.

Equipment, however shiny or expensive it may be, is NOT what makes good beer. I know guys who are winning medals at competitions making extract beers on their kitchen stoves. Likewise, others who have built their own 3-vessel or BIAB systems from the ground up, or buying used equipment on craigslist/offerup, making great beers. I have also read/heard about brewers with the latest shiny/expensive systems who can't brew a good beer to save their lives.

I would suggest keeping on with your current BIAB system, and refine your processes. Traditional BIAB is a great way to get into all-grain without spending a lot of dough (snork). You still have the ability to make whatever style you want, something that extract doesn't offer.

Another point, that may be offensive to some. Homebrewing can be a bit of a d*ck-waving contest at times (not intended for anyone here, we're all nice people) see my huge shiny system that I spent a lot of $$$$$ on! Just because someone says their GrainDaddyT9000 can weigh/mill grain/start by itself/do your taxes while they sleep, doesn't mean it will make better beer than the guy with an old keggle, handmade BIAB, and running on propane in his backyard will make. Just my two cents.

 

[Broken Crow]

I'm still a newbie brewer, but am hooked. I've got 5 batches currently on the go at various stages

Considering you just started over a month ago, that's quite impressive.Congrats! Two thoughts come to my mind immediately; 1/ It sounds like you're doing quite well with the gear you already have. 2/ Where and how are you going to keep all those brews you have on the go? If you do buy some of those on-sale Coopers kits (from your other post) just for practice, well, you don't need a Grainfather for that... I'm wondering if you've considered putting your resources into kegging? Even if you still want to bottle, you can a least keep in kegs to force-carb instead of messing with sugar, and leave it there until you have bottles available to put it in, and then bottle from keg with a Tapcooler or some such.
https://www.morebeer.com/products/tapcooler-counter-pressure-bottle-filler.html

 

[RogerGrahl]

1) All-in-One systems, at least the ones I'm familiar with, are basically a BIAB. The bag is replaced by a malt pipe. The main advantage I can see that all-in-ones provide is that they are electronic/electrical. That means, I can brew inside when it's raining, snowing (although I live in Florida), hot, cold, etc. Some people use a bag inside the malt pipe or even ditch the malt pipe and use a bag.

Full disclosure: I have an Anvil and really enjoy brewing on it.

2) Improving beer is not necessarily a product of the system you use. Mostly it is through practice/repeat brewing, using quality ingredients, basic skills; paying attention to the basics. People brew very good beer using extract on the stove top and cooling the wort in an ice bath.

If you are happy with the beers you make, continue to use the system (BIAB) you have. Now, if you have some extra money burning a hole in your pocket (not me, but some might), then maybe watch someone brew on an all-in-one system before buying. My LHBS, before they closed, used to give demonstrations on a Grainfather and even rented one out to "know" customers.

Just my 2 cents.

Riceral is giving you some sound advice. Electric brewing will give you consistency that is a little tougher to achieve on a burner. Temperature, humidity, and wind alter the boil-off rate from batch to batch. From a volume standpoint, that’s not a big deal, but when you have to add another 15 minutes or more to your boil to get your volume (and gravity) correct, you’ll mess up your IBUs if you are doing late hop additions. The best way to brew better beer is get your process and profiles dialed in so you always hit your numbers. Electric helps. Brew on….

 

[Dave77]

Thanks everyone. I needed to be 'talked out' of spending money. I'll stick with BIAB for now as it seems to be working fine, and so far, good results. Kegging perhaps is the next step, although I just bought a crap load of bottles from a homebrew store going out of business cause they were cheap, so I'm kind committed to bottling for now. LOL.

PS - didn't bother with the Coopers kits I mentioned in the last thread. Now that I'm comfortable with all-grain brewing and having fun with it, will stick with that.

 

[DBhomebrew]

+1 million. Fermenter temp control.

 

[seatazzz]

What @DBhomebrew said, in addition to my earlier response. You can have the prettiest, most on-the-numbers wort in the world; but if you don't control the temperature while those yeasts do their thang, you won't have good beer. Fermentation temperature control can be as cheap as having your fermenter in a rubbermaid tub filled with water and frozen water bottles, or as more expensive as having a dedicated refrigerator with a temperature controller. Either way works (I've done both). If you can get your hands on a used refrigerator, and have the space for it, you are in clover. Basic temperature controllers can be had on Amazon for less than $30; I think mine was about $25. Not only can you keep the fermentation temperature within range (with the addition of a heat lamp or reptile heat mat), you also have the option of cold-crashing your completed beers. Yeasts are hardy little beasts, but for them to do their best work they need to be kept at stable temperatures.

Homebrewers make wort. YEAST makes beer.

 

[Broken Crow]

What @DBhomebrew and what @seatazzz said, and maybe you can combine it: Get and set up a temp controlled fridge or freezer and use it for the styles where temp control really counts, but: Install a tap, so that when it's finished you can transfer to a keg, force-carb and bottle from the same unit.
The only reason I haven't prioritzed temp control for myself is that my basement is always pretty stable at about 65°-68° and I mainly do old English styles that are suited to that range....There have been a few brews in other styles though, where I can taste the lack of temp control in the process.

 

[Jim R]

Kegging perhaps is the next step,

That would be a no-brainer place to spend money next for me.

 

[Hoochin'Fool]

I think temperature control for fermenting will be my next expense... Would a typical "dorm room fridge" have room for a 5 gallon bucket? I don't have space for a full size fridge in my office!

 

[RM-MN]

I think temperature control for fermenting will be my next expense... Would a typical "dorm room fridge" have room for a 5 gallon bucket? I don't have space for a full size fridge in my office!

You'll need to look at every dorm fridge and take measurements. There isn't any standard for them and different manufacturers may have different dimensions. Measure your bucket(s) before you go shopping and then wait until college graduation. Sometimes dorm fridges are little more than giveaway items.

 

[Dave77]

That would be a no-brainer place to spend money next for me.

I should probably start another thread, but regarding kegs, how portable are they? I'd like to bring beer up to a vacation cottage each summer, but the thought of hauling kegs and C02 tanks is kind of daunting, not to mention how shaken up the beer would get on the drive.

 

[Dave77]

You'll need to look at every dorm fridge and take measurements. There isn't any standard for them and different manufacturers may have different dimensions. Measure your bucket(s) before you go shopping and then wait until college graduation. Sometimes dorm fridges are little more than giveaway items.

Hmm, you just got me thinking. I just remembered that there is a Danby warehouse not far from me with an outlet store where they sell refurbished fridges/freezers of every size. I think I'll check it out.

 

[RogerGrahl]

What @DBhomebrew said, in addition to my earlier response. You can have the prettiest, most on-the-numbers wort in the world; but if you don't control the temperature while those yeasts do their thang, you won't have good beer. Fermentation temperature control can be as cheap as having your fermenter in a rubbermaid tub filled with water and frozen water bottles, or as more expensive as having a dedicated refrigerator with a temperature controller. Either way works (I've done both). If you can get your hands on a used refrigerator, and have the space for it, you are in clover. Basic temperature controllers can be had on Amazon for less than $30; I think mine was about $25. Not only can you keep the fermentation temperature within range (with the addition of a heat lamp or reptile heat mat), you also have the option of cold-crashing your completed beers. Yeasts are hardy little beasts, but for them to do their best work they need to be kept at stable temperatures.

Homebrewers make wort. YEAST makes beer.

Seatazz, excellent advice.

 

[danb35]

I may have missed it in this thread, but I didn't see much discussion of what seems (to me, at least) to be the biggest drawback of most all-in-one systems: all the parts are one-off, single-source custom jobs that you may not be able to replace or upgrade if/when needed. Leaving aside the question of whether a brewing equipment upgrade is called for (on which a number of posters have given their thoughts), if you do upgrade, I favor a modular system made of standard parts. I went for one of these last year:
https://www.brewhardware.com/product_p/biabpackagepremium.htm
...but that vendor has a number of other options as well. Like the commercial AIO units, it's still a BIAB system. But valves, fittings, hose, and all the other parts can be sourced from any number of vendors if needed. And if you decide you need a larger kettle, you can move most of the parts from one to the other--no need to buy a new system.

 

[seatazzz]

I should probably start another thread, but regarding kegs, how portable are they? I'd like to bring beer up to a vacation cottage each summer, but the thought of hauling kegs and C02 tanks is kind of daunting, not to mention how shaken up the beer would get on the drive.

The initial outlay for kegging can be a bit pricey. Craigslist and offerup (or the equivalent in your location) are great places to look. On the Seattle craigslist, on any given day there's usually at least 2-3 people selling their entire setup; either they upgraded to something else, or they got discouraged and are getting out of it. It may take a while, but you'd be surprised at how cheaply you can find used kegs/co2 tanks. My first 20lb tank only cost me $10, because the guy I was buying used kegs from had it lying around and didn't need it anymore. 2nd one came with the $300 kegerator I bought a year later, that can hold six corny kegs.

A word of caution, however; kegs are herd animals. They like to have company. I started with two and now have nine. The 'problem' with kegging as opposed to bottling, is the speed at which you can have drinkable beer. Oh boy, I just kegged this {insert style here}, I'd better get another one going since I have a free fermenter. Oh cr*p, it's done and the first keg isn't empty yet; guess I need another keg! And on it goes.

 

[Dave77]

A word of caution, however; kegs are herd animals. They like to have company. I started with two and now have nine. The 'problem' with kegging as opposed to bottling, is the speed at which you can have drinkable beer. Oh boy, I just kegged this {insert style here}, I'd better get another one going since I have a free fermenter. Oh cr*p, it's done and the first keg isn't empty yet; guess I need another keg! And on it goes.

LOL - I'm already doing that to myself. I have 3 fermenter pails and already I'm saying, "Oh crap, I have a free pail, I better make another batch." I can only imagine how keggining would increase this 'problem'.

 

[doug293cz]

I should probably start another thread, but regarding kegs, how portable are they? I'd like to bring beer up to a vacation cottage each summer, but the thought of hauling kegs and C02 tanks is kind of daunting, not to mention how shaken up the beer would get on the drive.

And bottles don't get shaken up when you transport them? The biggest issue is usually stirring up the little bit of trub at the bottom of the keg (that you have spent weeks getting to settle out of the beer for clear pours.) What I do if I have to transport a keg, and care about beer clarity when I get where I'm going, is to decant the beer from one keg to another, leaving the trub behind. And, there's another reason to get more kegs.

An empty corny weighs about 10 lb, and 5 gal of 1.010 FG beer weighs 42 lb, so a full keg will weigh about 52 lb. A 5 lb CO2 cylinder weighs less than that, and you can get adapters for smaller CO2 cartridges that fit beer kegs (good for serving, but not so good for carbonating due to low capacity.)

Safety wise, you need to secure the CO2 cylinder in the vehicle so that it cannot roll around or fall over, possibly damaging the valve or regulator, which could lead to a CO2 discharge in the vehicle. A 5 lb cylinder contains enough CO2 to create a toxic atmosphere in a small enclosed volume. You probably also want to keep the beer keg from rolling around or falling over, just to prevent damage to the keg.

Brew on

 

[doug293cz]

I should also mention that smaller kegs (1 - 3 gal) are handy for taking beer to events.

Brew on

 

[AlexKay]

I should also mention that smaller kegs (1 - 3 gal) are handy for taking beer to events.

Brew on

Can maybe fit a small keg in the fridge, too, and then dispense with a picnic tap (2.1). Otherwise you then want to look at getting a jockey box. Luckily, I didn’t get into this hobby to save money…

 

[hottpeper13]

I wouldn't be too concerned about having those bottles around after the kegging system takes it's place. You're hooked and will no doubt be getting a barrel soon. Those 10%+ beers belong in a bottle!

 

[jtgoral]

I made 261 five gallon batches. ~75% of them were BIAB.
Lately I rather use LME + specialty grains. Less work, less time and the same end result. I have a frozen yeast bank. This make less money spend on yeast.

 

[mac_1103]

I should probably start another thread, but regarding kegs, how portable are they? I'd like to bring beer up to a vacation cottage each summer, but the thought of hauling kegs and C02 tanks is kind of daunting, not to mention how shaken up the beer would get on the drive.

So many things to consider here. How long do you stay at the cottage? What kind of vehicle do you drive when you go there and how much extra cargo space do you have? Minikegs might be the right answer. A counterpressure bottle filler might be the right answer. Hauling five gallon kegs back and forth might be the right answer.

But at the rate you're going, duplicating your entire brewing and packaging setup is probably the right answer.

 

[Dave77]

I think I'll hold back on kegging for now. Bottling for me (as a newbie) is still fun, but once it starts feeling like a chore I'll look into kegging. Thanks everyone for your input! I will however start monitoring 'Used Equipment for Sale' websites for deals on kegging equipment.

 

[AlexKay]

I think I'll hold back on kegging for now. Bottling for me (as a newbie) is still fun, but once it starts feeling like a chore I'll look into kegging. Thanks everyone for your input! I will however start monitoring 'Used Equipment for Sale' websites for deals on kegging equipment.

Sounds smart. There are perhaps-surprising compromise positions between the two. Like 1-liter EZ-cap bottles and 2-4-liter mini kegs. Both let you use fewer containers, and both will withstand higher internal pressures. (Both also encourage you to drink lots at a sitting; this is not necessarily a problem, though.)

 

[ITV]

Two, and this is going to sound strange; I think it will take some of the fun out of it. Add water, push buttons. Add grain, push buttons. Pull malt pipe/grain bag, push buttons. Yes I know it's not really that simple, but I like being more hands-on with brewing.

My sentiments exactly!
The reason I started all-grain brewing was that brewing extract reminded me of making pancakes with bisquick. It was fun at first but after the first dozen batches it was boring. I actually like to spend a 7 hour day brewing an all-grain beer (clean-up time included). At the end of the day I can reward myself with my previous batches of homebrew!

 

[ITV]

I think I'll hold back on kegging for now. Bottling for me (as a newbie) is still fun, but once it starts feeling like a chore I'll look into kegging. Thanks everyone for your input! I will however start monitoring 'Used Equipment for Sale' websites for deals on kegging equipment.

Once I made the jump to all-grain, the next step shortly after, was to keg my beer.

Below is my tap tower that I picked up used for $150, I reused my perlick taps since it came with cheap ones.

 

[Steveruch]

I recently submitted an article to Zymurgy detailing a triangle test done with an identical porter recipe one batch that was brewed BIAB with minimal techniques: no-chill, no strict temperature control in a plastic bucket and bottled versus one brewed in an Anvil Foundry, quick chilled, fermented in stainless steel with strict temperature control and kegged.
Without giving too much away 6 of the 19 tasters rated the BIAB version better than the Anvil foundry batch and 3 rated them equal.

 

[JAReeves]

You have already made up your mind because you have received really good advice, but keep this in mind, too. Altering/improving on your equipment/process one step at a time is a solid plan. That way, with the same recipe, you can track how your equipment/process changes the beer itself (all other things being equal). Trust me, you learn a lot from doing that, as opposed to reading about somebody else's, ahem, measurement device ( @seatazzz) and blowing the kid's college fund. As you figure out what process works for you and the beers you want to make, get comfortable with it by making a lot of beer. And then giving it away, no need to botch the liver through this hobby.

I have only made one upgrade in the last year and that is to get an AIO (used from another HBT member). Not because I'm getting rid of my 3V system, but because I want to be able to mash in to it from my HLT and then step the mash up in stages with its internal heating elements to see for myself how it will affect my beers. I also then have the freedom to do a decoction mash on a separate burner as well. If I don't like it, I will sell it, but if I do, then I will get rid of my SS mash tun. It's a fun journey.

Enjoy the process!

 

[Clint Yeastwood]

Whatever you do, don't buy a kegerator. Too much money for what you get, zero versatility, and zero customer support.

 

[danb35]

I'd take (and did take, a few months ago) a contrary position, having built my own several years ago. Once I added up the costs of buying all the relevant parts (including a freezer, because a mini-fridge that will readily handle four Corny kegs is very hard to come by), I decided on the four-tap Komos unit. Not a lot of cost delta compared to DIY, and it's complete. Add ball-lock fittings, and it's ready to go out of the box. I'm not sure what "versatility" you'd want, though it could also serve as a fermentation chamber (it will hold temperature anywhere from below freezing to 82°F). Though I'll admit I haven't had any need for customer support, so can't speak to that.

 

[Clint Yeastwood]

Wait till it dies and you need help. Read other people's horror stories.

Your kegerator is Chinese, like just about every other refrigeration product, so there is a good chance it will die prematurely. When you have to replace your unit, you'll have to spend at least $700 before taxes and shipping. Komos has terrible customer support, and this isn't the old days when you could actually get a refrigerator repaired. I can pull the collar off my freezer and get a new freezer for $400. I keep the regulators, lines, taps, drip tray, Inkbird...everything except the box. Holds 5 kegs and two tanks.

 

[danb35]

What is "a good chance"? What is "prematurely"? You have no idea, and no data on which to base an idea; you're just fearmongering. Yes, I've read the horror stories--some of them, anyway. I'm aware that (like most consumer products) if it dies next year, it likely won't be repairable unless I'm going to do it myself. I'm also aware that the chance of it dying next year is likely in the same basic range as that of any other mini-fridge dying within a year or two--non-zero, but low. After all, as you say, "just about every other refrigeration product" is also made in China, and they routinely last many years; there's nothing unique about the kegerator but the control circuitry, which could be bypassed if necessary. There's also the fact that the form-factor and layout of a keezer wouldn't work as well for me.

Oh, and Morebeer.com ships the Komos for free. Or if you want the Kegland-branded version, williamsbrewing.com ships that for free too, and doesn't collect tax for out-of-state orders.

 

[Clint Yeastwood]

Look, I'm not trying to make you mad, but on average, keezers are way less trouble, they do more, and on average, they cost less. Those things are just facts. You may get lucky and get a Chinese product that lasts 15 years, but if you don't, you are stuck with a Chinese-product warranty from a company that routinely fails to honor its promises. Komos has proven itself useless. You can get a keezer from a real company with an American presence, like Frigidaire or Magic Chef, and they'll honor their warranty. You might even get to exchange it at Home Depot or wherever you bought it.

If you cheat on your taxes, you save maybe $50. I still paid under $300, and taxes were included. When I order things online, I look for sites that collect taxes so I don't have to go through the pain of filing online. You still owe even if you order from out of state.

If my keezer dies, I don't necessarily have to buy new anyway. Used ones in good shape are on Craigslist all the time, and making the collar fit a different freezer is easy. Good luck finding a used kegerator in good shape.

A keezer will let you put your tanks inside it, and you can have both beer gas and CO2. Kegerators hang their tanks in unsightly exterior brackets, and you only get one per unit.

I'm not trying to start a fight. I'm just trying to help Dave77 avoid a dumb mistake I considered making. I have 5 kegs, a secondary regulator, two gases, 5 taps, concealed tanks, a real warranty, and a freezer I can replace in one hour. What's not to love? You could never get all that with a Komos.

 

[Geezer-Glide]

Can maybe fit a small keg in the fridge, too, and then dispense with a picnic tap (2.1). Otherwise you then want to look at getting a jockey box. Luckily, I didn’t get into this hobby to save money…

attached is a photo of a mini-fridge with a corny and a 2.5 gallon keg. It works well enough. I modified the door as I was using it as a ferm-cab before I converted a small freezer for that purpose.