Newbie here!

[CthulhuBrew33]

French Saison yeast is not from White Labs, it's a WYeast product, WY3711.
It's a good yeast, a vigorous fermenter, but lacks somewhat in character.

Belgian Saison Yeast II is White Labs WLP566. But it's also a Dupont strain, so it may be as finicky as WLP565 (or the similar WY3724). Neither are suitable for beginners, IMO.

WY3726 is Blaugies and has none of Dupont's quirks. That would be my preference and recommendation here.

Now, are you ordering these yeasts from NB? Shipping liquid yeasts during hot summer months is not advisable. And you would need to make starter ahead of time to prove they weren't killed in transit or cooked in your mailbox.

Do you have a local homebrew shop or source? That would be preferable for the liquid yeast. For dry yeast none of that matter all that much, it's much more resilient.

https://www.whitelabs.com/yeast-bank/wlp590-french-saison-ale-yeast
everything i buy will be from a local homebrew store when i can. will get this one kit to try out first though from online but no yest so thats fine, just that price seems pretty unbeatable.

as for yeasts i thank you for your recommendation as thats why i posted here before ever even ordering anything. to learn, get opinions, feedback, recommendations etc.
i am looking for that more peppery, almost barnyard funk saison characteristic. i think that would mesh well with rye as well as the balance from the Limes/lime juice and honey.

 

[CthulhuBrew33]

Pilsen Light DME is fine. Don't use Maris Otter DME in a Saison, it's way too malty.
You could use half Pilsen Light DME and half Wheat DME. Wheat gives it a good Saisony flavor, it belongs in Saisons.

No, you can't steep Rye. Neither malt nor (raw) flaked. They need to be properly mashed.

But you could use Rye LME (Liquid Malt Extract), if you can source it, it's not that common.
http://www.brewingwithbriess.com/Products/Extracts.htm#RyeIt contains 20% rye, which is probably plenty in a Saison recipe. If you want 20% rye content you'd need 2 cans. No wheat.

i was thinking about trying to get rye LME for the rye content actually. just made the most sense to me right away. what if i get LME for both the rye and pilsen light? or would doing LME rye and DME light pilsen be fine?

 

[IslandLizard]

i was thinking about trying to get rye LME for the rye content actually. just made the most sense to me right away. what if i get LME for both the rye and pilsen light? or would doing LME rye and DME light pilsen be fine?

Yes, that would be fine. That's what many do, mix and match.

[EDITS]
The link I posted earlier shows 3.3 pound plastic cans of LME. There are many varieties. That's what you usually get from the store, in kits, or mail order.

==> Make sure not to buy pre-hopped malt extracts! They're packaged in the same plastic cans, but are a whole different thing, for a different kind of brewing that doesn't involve a boil.

For many, more commonly used LME varieties, such as Pilsen Light, Golden Light, Sparkling Amber, etc. the store may have large vats from which it fills their own containers, or thick, heavy duty food quality plastic bags.

You can use either DME or LME, and interchange one with the other freely, using this calculator:
https://www.brewersfriend.com/lme-dme-conversion-calculator/
Many extract and partial mash brewers prefer to use DME over LME, as it tends to keep better, years even when stored dry, in well (re-)sealed original bags, without affecting flavor and freshness. It may clump, even when never opened, it's still A-OK. It only takes longer to dissolve when clumped, give it some time, and keep stirring. But the selection/variety of DME is more limited than that of LME.

Then use LME where a DME variety is not available. For example, that Rye LME mentioned before is only available in 3.3 pound cans. There is no dry (DME) variety of that.

Why not always use LME?
LME is like honey, it gets darker with time but also develops a weird old, stale-ish flavor. As long as you can get LME that's known to be fresh (check dates) it should be generally fine. You still don't know how it was stored since manufacturing. Could have been in a hot warehouse for most of its life, until it reached your brew store shelf. Know your store, your supplier.
Any leftovers can be stored refrigerated in the original container closed with the lid it came with. You could cover the surface of the extract with a piece of tripled up plastic wrap or mylar film to further shield it from air (O2) contact. It should be used up within a few weeks, ideally. Perhaps even up to 2-3 months?

 

[CthulhuBrew33]

@CthulhuBrew33

I am definitely enjoying it and appreciate the simplicity of the extract kits as I learn more about the craft. BTW I have heard great things about Brewers Best Blood Orange Saison I have attached the link to the instruction so you can see the ingredients and instructions.

looking at this and this feels almost exactly how i imagine my first one will go. may try using the ratios of this one and just sub LME Rye for the Extra Light, and use DME Light or Extra light instead of the amber. and the honey instead of the candi syrup perhaps? maybe substitute Mandarina Bavaria for the Chinook.

Anyone know if Honey can be subbed for Candi Syrup evenly or what?

 

[VikeMan]

Anyone know if Honey can be subbed for Candi Syrup evenly or what?

In what respect? Honey will (typically) contribute more gravity than Candi Syrup, about 35 PPG vs 32 PPG. Flavorwise, I don't find any of the Candi Syrup colors (from Candi Syrup Inc.) to taste very much like any honey I've had.

 

[CthulhuBrew33]

https://omegayeast.com/yeast/hybrids/saisonsteins-monsteranyone ever use this? its what NB recommends for the second kit im going to order with the Lemondrop Saison and i can get it at my local HBS

In what respect? Honey will (typically) contribute more gravity than Candi Syrup, about 35 PPG vs 32 PPG. Flavorwise, I don't find any of the Candi Syrup colors (from Candi Syrup Inc.) to taste very much like any honey I've had.

yeah i just would prefer to not use Candi Syrup in the brew and im already trying to add in honey so i figured id see if i could add it even exchange or at what ratio i could just sub it in for.

 

[fourfarthing]

https://omegayeast.com/yeast/hybrids/saisonsteins-monsteranyone ever use this? its what NB recommends for the second kit im going to order with the Lemondrop Saison and i can get it at my local HBS

yeah i just would prefer to not use Candi Syrup in the brew and im already trying to add in honey so i figured id see if i could add it even exchange or at what ratio i could just sub it in for.

I used Saisonstein. Its supposed to be the same strain as 3711 (or one of them is). Ferments great, very dry

 

[seatazzz]

i got a bag of chocolate rye...probably could steep it...

@CthulhuBrew33 someone else could chime in on this thought....soak the rye malt, until it's saturated, then drain it, and throw it into a low oven until the kernels are at 150f....turn the oven off, let it sit for 30 minutes...then crank the oven to something like 225-250f, for a couple hours....homemade rye light crystal, i've seen a thread on it....i think @seatazzz (did you add a z?) does it, when i make crystal it's just sprouts....


lol, but that's probably harder then a partial mash....(but it would be fun for future rye saisons to dial in the rye flavor!)

I do make my own crystal but I use already malted two-row to do it. It's really easy, just have to watch the oven temperature during the roasting phase so it doesn't burn (ask me how I know). Stir frequently, keep it not too thick (a nice shallow baking sheet works well) and take it out before it looks too dark; it will continue to darken as it cools, so take it out of the oven when it's a nice brown with no burned bits. The burned bits will more than likely stick to the pan (line with aluminum foil!) and are quite tasty to nibble on once you get the "good" crystal out. Leave in a brown paper bag for a week or so and it's good. @Schlenkerla has a nice writeup on making your own crystal malt, that's where I got my process for it.

 

[bracconiere]

I do make my own crystal but I use already malted two-row to do it. It's really easy, just have to watch the oven temperature during the roasting phase so it doesn't burn (ask me how I know). Stir frequently, keep it not too thick (a nice shallow baking sheet works well) and take it out before it looks too dark; it will continue to darken as it cools, so take it out of the oven when it's a nice brown with no burned bits. The burned bits will more than likely stick to the pan (line with aluminum foil!) and are quite tasty to nibble on once you get the "good" crystal out. Leave in a brown paper bag for a week or so and it's good. @Schlenkerla has a nice writeup on making your own crystal malt, that's where I got my process for it.

hmmm... my understanding, would be, that's more like a dark munich? if you don't mash in the kernel, then there's no carmelized sugar.....(not that munich doesn't make a great beer! but it'd still need at least a partial mash to convert)

been a while since i read your adventures in roasting, i thought you upgraded to an air fryer?


edit: not to totally hijack, but i only subconsiously noticed that phenomenon before....thanks for bringing it to the surface as an actual consious thought!

(i wish there was a way to insert a quote in a edit)

 

[fourfarthing]

Let’s not get too far off topic here guys. I could write paragraphs on how you need wheat to make a Grisette a Grisette but its not the point. OP wants to brew a saison as a newbie. Let’s focus there.

 

[bracconiere]

it will continue to darken as it cools,

@fourfarthing LOL, it was a RYE saison, with a lime...and i saw he wanted to know if he had to mash or steep the rye....i was giving an option for a steeping method that would be 10 times more time consuming then a partial mash in a grain bag....just to throw it out there.....IslandLizard said it couldn't be done!

at least that's the way i remember it.....

you're right though, as sherlock would say "back to the topic at hand!"

 

[fourfarthing]

@fourfarthing LOL, it was a RYE saison, with a lime...and i saw he wanted to know if he had to mash or steep the rye....i was giving an option for a steeping method that would be 10 times more time consuming then a partial mash in a grain bag....just to throw it out there.....IslandLizard said it couldn't be done!

at least that's the way i remember it.....

you're right though, as sherlock would say "back to the topic at hand!"

As long as we avoid home malting we are in better shape

 

[CthulhuBrew33]

As long as we avoid home malting we are in better shape

wait so rye can or cant be steeped? i dont think i will have to, i think ill get as much rye as i need from the LME

 

[VikeMan]

wait so rye can or cant be steeped?

Flaked Rye needs to be mashed along with a diastatic base malt. Rye Malt also needs to be mashed, but has the enzymes to convert itself.

 

[Brewbuzzard]

I brew a nice Saison and have won a few awards. I keep it simple. I'm an AG brewer but you can get the same results with DME. I use pilsner malt with a touch of Munich for some color and to bump the flavor. I don't add any herbs or spices. I like WY3711 but there are several great yeasts that give different flavor characteristics. Find one or more that you like. I stay in the middle of the temperature range for fermentation. As for water the brewer that made the DME already put everything in it and it has been condensed like everything else so RO water should be good. Ensure fermentation is complete before bottle conditioning. Also, you can use sugar to carbonate or DME to influence body one way or the other. When I bottle condition I put the bottles in a box and set them in a spare bathtub just to be safe. Have fun.

 

[IslandLizard]

looking at this and this feels almost exactly how i imagine my first one will go. may try using the ratios of this one and just sub LME Rye for the Extra Light, and use DME Light or Extra light instead of the amber. and the honey instead of the candi syrup perhaps? maybe substitute Mandarina Bavaria for the Chinook.

You got to understand beer styles, recipe building, and "pre-visualize" outcome before trying to tweak existing recipes or substitute ingredients at will. The combination of all ingredients makes every beer unique, which is compounded by process variations.

Anyone know if Honey can be subbed for Candi Syrup evenly or what?

Candi syrups comes in different colors, from nearly clear to dark toffee syrup. Candi syrup and honey taste very differently. Except for the lightest candi syrups, there's really no comparison aside from both being sweet and fermenting out almost completely. That's why it's so difficult to retain honey flavor/character in beer, most of what makes honey taste like honey ferments out. Some residual sweetness and certain malts help accentuating that subtle flavor.

Putting "Honey" in the beer's name or description has probably more effect than adding a pound or 2 of it. You only need to add a tablespoon of honey to call it that.

Some brewers just add (plain) table sugar instead of light Candi syrups, at 1/10 of the cost. Instead of honey, the same, plus some Honey malt and light crystal.