Newbie already made a mistake?

[Lastbrewstanding]

Dude, yes - especially in the Beginners Beer Brewing Forum.

Makers of dry/liquid malt extract (professionally) make a wort, then vacuum evaporate it - taking just the water out.

So a "best practice" when brewing with dry/liquid malt extract is to add just the water (no minerals or a known limited amount of minerals /2/) back.

Palmer, in How to Brew, 4e, chapter 1 appears to have put a lot of thought into "poka-yoking" /1/ a brew day process. Water that is known to have "no" or "low" mineral content is part of that process.

If the water does not have a known mineral content ("spring water" is not water with a known mineral content), @Clint Yeastwood offers sound advice.

---

/1/ Poka-yoke is a Japanese term that means "mistake-proofing" or "error prevention".

/2/ there may be an interesting discussion regarding minerals and ppm: for Na, S04, and Cl, what is the threshold that matters? Can one detect a 10 ppm difference? 50? 500?

Dude, yes - especially in the Beginners Beer Brewing Forum.

Makers of dry/liquid malt extract (professionally) make a wort, then vacuum evaporate it - taking just the water out.

So a "best practice" when brewing with dry/liquid malt extract is to add just the water (no minerals or a known limited amount of minerals /2/) back.

Palmer, in How to Brew, 4e, chapter 1 appears to have put a lot of thought into "poka-yoking" /1/ a brew day process. Water that is known to have "no" or "low" mineral content is part of that process.

If the water does not have a known mineral content ("spring water" is not water with a known mineral content), @Clint Yeastwood offers sound advice.

---

/1/ Poka-yoke is a Japanese term that means "mistake-proofing" or "error prevention".

/2/ there may be an interesting discussion regarding minerals and ppm: for Na, S04, and Cl, what is the threshold that matters? Can one detect a 10 ppm difference? 50? 500?

Dude, yes exactly. I always tell begginer brewers before they brew to get a complete water analysis so they can adjust the water chemisty to the style Ca/Cl ratio etc. water is the foundation so it is basic so every beginner should also have a PH meter and a good carbon filter. (I wont tell them about camdem tabs or distilled water till they are a bit more advanced) but i do recommend every new brewer pick up a GrainFather G20 for their first brew.
-Cheers

 

[Bagarge]

Good points guys thankyou.

I will go for dissolving the sugar with the clear beer in a seperate bucket. Not ideal but it is what it is. Individual measurements in each bottle sounds lame and long!

 

[Rish]

^^This is kinda what I do and have never had a problem.

I would dissolve the sugar in a cup of water, boil for 5 minutes, cool and add to the bottom of your bottling bucket. Transfer your beer with the hose on the bottom of bucket so you get a swirling motion that helps mix the sugar solution while filling. Don't allow any splashing. Once beer is transferred, swirl with a large spoon or other stirrer to better incorporate priming solution, again with no splashing, then bottle.

I always store my bottled beers in a bin with a lid than will contain any bottle bombs while they are conditioning but it's never happened. Better safe than sorry. Good luck!.

 

[Bagarge]

^^This is kinda what I do and have never had a problem.

I would dissolve the sugar in a cup of water, boil for 5 minutes, cool and add to the bottom of your bottling bucket. Transfer your beer with the hose on the bottom of bucket so you get a swirling motion that helps mix the sugar solution while filling. Don't allow any splashing. Once beer is transferred, swirl with a large spoon or other stirrer to better incorporate priming solution, again with no splashing, then bottle.

I always store my bottled beers in a bin with a lid than will contain any bottle bombs while they are conditioning but it's never happened. Better safe than sorry. Good luck!.

Roger that! Today is the day, have all my equipment soaking in a sterilising solution. Will check one last gravity reading but there has been no bubbling for a day or two now. Should be good to go.

Just bought a 30l vessel in the form of a gerry can to minimise oxygen exposure. Good idea on containing the bottles in case of explosions

Wish me luck (ah you did! Thanks)
P.s will adding water to the sugar solution not dilute my beer?

 

[Bagarge]

So the gravity has dropped to 1.010… ever so slightly above. Am i ok to bottle? Fermentation is complete no?

Do i need to sterilise the bottle caps also?

 

[mac_1103]

P.s will adding water to the sugar solution not dilute my beer?

Well, yeah, but it's a cup in five gallons so it's not enough to matter and you're going to get a bit more alcohol from fermenting the added sugar anyway.

Do i need to sterilise the bottle caps also?

Yes. A quick dip in starsan just before they go on the bottles will do it.

 

[Action Jackson]

I have seen this but this doesnt give any measurements for adding individually to half litre bottles.
The priming sugar comes with the pack so the amount is right.

I would rather mix it in to the beer rather than each bottle with a spoon. My question is will this expose to too much oxygen transfering the beer to another vessel and mixing the sugar before racking off into bottles

I always transfer my brew from the secondary fermenter into a bottling bucket and add the priming sugar solution to the brew. Then lightly stir the wort to make sure the priming liquid is dissipated throughout. You will not have an oxygen issue if you bottle immediately thereafter, and especially if you use oxygen absorbing caps.

 

[hotbeer]

How much oxygen those caps actually absorb came into question somewhere here on HBT awhile back. Don't know that anything definitive was shown. But information that I found on the web at that time that seemed more trustworthy seemed to indicate they don't absorb very much.

And all the crown caps I've seen sold by homebrew suppliers seem to claim oxygen scavenging. So it's not like you have to look hard for them.

So probably it's better to not leave much headspace at all. The only two downsides to that for a 12 ounce bottle, you'll be putting over 13 ounces of beer and won't get as many bottles of beer to pass around. And it takes about a 1½ inches of headspace to get that lovely pfft sound when you open a bottle. less than that and you'll imagine that your beer is flat when you open them. At least till you get use to not having any sound at all.

 

[Bagarge]

It is done. 20 litres into 40 bottles. Looks great, smells even better and tastes like a damn good apa!
Couldnt help but try a bottle

Cant wait to see how she clears in a few weeks!

Thanks for all the support and great advice guys! Truely a great forum here!

I will report back in a couple of weeks and post some shots
Big up yourselves guys thanks alot

 

[OakIslandBrewery]

It is done. 20 litres into 40 bottles. Looks great, smells even better and tastes like a damn good apa!
Couldnt help but try a bottle

Cant wait to see how she clears in a few weeks!

Thanks for all the support and great advice guys! Truely a great forum here!

I will report back in a couple of weeks and post some shots
Big up yourselves guys thanks alot

Congratulations!

I know you felt confused and overwhelmed at times but like I mentioned, we have all been in that same spot. Your next batch should go a little easier and when you clock in fifty batches you can look back and say why did I worry so much. It'll all fall into place on your brewing journey!

Again, congratulations and good luck on your second batch!

 

[hotbeer]

One thing that leads to confusion is that there are so many ways to go about brewing beer. So when you read something here on BF or elsewhere, you have to consider if those thoughts are a consideration for beer making or a consideration for the particular method that person is using to brew their beer.

Of course we all brew our beer by the perfect method [for ourself]. And since many of us are doing a different perfect method than the other person, that's why we sometimes get in heated argument.

 

[Bagarge]

Thanks guys! Loved the whole journey but its nice to get er bottled!

Ordered my beer equipment today so waiting on that to arrive so i will jump into all grain brewing

Got a harvest bitter kit here but the malt extract is a couple years out of date….. will probly open it up and give it a go while i wait on my new setup hahaha

 

[mac_1103]

the malt extract is a couple years out of date

Liquid or dry?

 

[Bagarge]

Liquid or dry?

Liquid. Its sealed in a can

 

[mac_1103]

Liquid. Its sealed in a can

Good chance it's stale, depending on how it's been stored (including before you got it). Apparently the color of the wort it makes can be a pretty good indicator of LME staling (darker than expected = bad).

 

[IslandLizard]

Got a harvest bitter kit here but the malt extract is a couple years out of date….. will probly open it up and give it a go while i wait on my new setup hahaha

Liquid. Its sealed in a can

That's one beer style to which you can easily add some spices, covering many flaws, such as stale-ish liquid extract.
Go for it!

 

[Bagarge]

Yeah i will go for it, im waiting on my new equipment so might as well.
i was thinking of adding some sort of spice to it do you have any ideas?

Also im now wondering if the headspace i left in the bottles is sufficient. Most have about 3cm. Bottle bombs or no? I guess whats done is done anyway now so i will wait and see

 

[mac_1103]

Bottle bombs result from over-carbonating the beer, not from too little headspace. But 3 cm is plenty of headspace in any case. Keep the bottles in a sturdy container until they're done conditioning just in case.

 

[BrewnWKopperKat]

Apparently the color of the wort it makes can be a pretty good indicator of LME staling (darker than expected = bad).

The test for extra light / light extracts is here. For "Amber" extracts, amber is good, brown is bad.

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/threads/advanced-extract-brewing.426031/page-11#post-10251369

---

Anticipated off flavors from stale extract can be categorized into

• homebrew taste
• extract taste, or
• extract twang.

 

[Bagarge]

Bottle bombs result from over-carbonating the beer, not from too little headspace. But 3 cm is plenty of headspace in any case. Keep the bottles in a sturdy container until they're done conditioning just in case.

Perfect. Yeah they are well away from anything and everyone.
I mixed the priming sugar in boiling water, allowed it to cool and mixed with the wort so should be fine. Its been well over the kit specified time to ferment and the sg was at 1.011 so it should be fine

 

[IslandLizard]

i was thinking of adding some sort of spice to it do you have any ideas?

Earthy spices work well in darker beers, even in Amber ales.

Cinnamon and ginger are probably the most popular in spiced beer. For inspiration, Great Lakes brewery (Cleveland, Ohio) brews a Christmas Ale that's very nice and drinkable, and not just for colder nights by the fireplace or fire pit:
https://www.greatlakesbrewing.com/christmas-ale

(A little) allspice, nutmeg, orange peel, etc. can be used as well.

 

[Bagarge]

Earthy spices work well in darker beers, even in Amber ales.

Cinnamon and ginger are probably the most popular in spiced beer. For inspiration, Great Lakes brewery (Cleveland, Ohio) brews a Christmas Ale that's very nice and drinkable, and not just for colder nights by the fireplace or fire pit:
https://www.greatlakesbrewing.com/christmas-ale

(A little) allspice, nutmeg, orange peel, etc. can be used as well.

Nice i was thinking of orange and cinnamon. Got about 80 orange trees here so i can dry the peel myself

 

[IslandLizard]

Got about 80 orange trees here so i can dry the peel myself

No need to dry them, you can use fresh peel too. Best is to use the zest (the top, colored part of the skin), leaving the pith (the white part) out of the beer, because it's bitter.

 

[Bagarge]

No need to dry them, you can use fresh peel too. Best is to use the zest (the top, colored part of the skin), leaving the pith (the white part) out of the beer, because it's bitter.

Even better! Ill grate some tangerine skins into the brew, a couple of cinnamon sticks and see what happens

 

[BrewnWKopperKat]

Even better! Ill grate some tangerine skins into the brew, a couple of cinnamon sticks and see what happens

And consider "reporting back".

If the liquid extract doesn't throw "metallic" / "ball point pen" flavors, stronger spices (are you considering using tinctures with a "season to taste" approach at bottling time? rather or adding them to to the boil?) may work.

 

[Rish]

When I use spices, peels, etc., I make a tincture by soaking them seperately in vodka for a week or so, shaking daily, then add the liquid to the bottling bucket. That way I can add a little, taste, add more if needed until I get the taste I want with less risk of getting too much. This also keeps the solids out of the fv.

 

[Bagarge]

And consider "reporting back".

If the liquid extract doesn't throw "metallic" / "ball point pen" flavors, stronger spices (are you considering using tinctures with a "season to taste" approach at bottling time? rather or adding them to to the boil?) may work.

I can use tinctures!? After brewing? Now that sounds fancy if so.
My other half makes tinctures of all things on the farm… im very much looking forward to these experiments

 

[Bagarge]

When I use spices, peels, etc., I make a tincture by soaking them seperately in vodka for a week or so, shaking daily, then add the liquid to the bottling bucket. That way I can add a little, taste, add more if needed until I get the taste I want with less risk of getting too much. This also keeps the solids out of the fv.

That is really good to know. This has opened many doors. I make some special flower tinctures that i think would go great with these beers
I am loving the possibilities available brewing beer, i never knew

 

[BrewnWKopperKat]

I can use tinctures!? After brewing?

Consider starting a fresh topic on tinctures.

And apparently "malt cocktails" are becoming a thing. Over the weekend, I was at a tap room of a regional brewery where they had four of them, and one APA, one (very clear) WC IPA, and one hazy (18 taps total).

 

[Bagarge]

Consider starting a fresh topic on tinctures.

And apparently "malt cocktails" are becoming a thing. Over the weekend, I was at a tap room of a regional brewery where they had four of them, and one APA, one (very clear) WC IPA, and one hazy (18 taps total).

I might do so when i have tried it. I will use this old tin of bitter i have as an experiment and report the results. I will try a sort of winter orange and cinnamon bitter i think.

That sounds really cool. I suspect the market is huge if you could plug in to that sort of thing.

I mean if i can make a beer that tastes of a blueberry lager then i know some people who would be converted instantly hahaha!

 

[Bagarge]

Can i get an opinion on these kegs that have just come up for sale. I have no idea about kegs but i dont recall seeing taps on them

 

[NSMikeD]

Can i get an opinion on these kegs that have just come up for sale. I have no idea about kegs but i dont recall seeing taps on them

as this is a beginner forum I'l try to limit my reply to the basics. Kegging is great and I keg and hate bottling. That being said there are basically 2 types of kegs, sanka and corny. Basically sanka kegs are what you see in bars and college parties. The CO2 in and Beer out are combined into a single connection. Those kegs lok like standard 1/2 barrels that are 15.5 gallons

Homebrewers usually use corny kegs with separate connections for CO2 in and beer out. Likely, because homebrewers initially recycled used soda kegs (corny style). Those soda kegs are 5-gallon size

I suspect the 5-gallon batch standard for homebrewing was partly due to the size of those soda kegs. But today, homebrew suppliers have responded to the various needs and wants of a more diversified homebrew market, and kegs are readily available in different sizes.

I suggest spending time perfecting your homebrewing method so you rely more on memory and instinct and less on instruction sheets (like a chef who will have a recipe, but can execute it without looking) and take note of your consumption habits, which may include giving away more or less of your brews after those initial batches

I recommend matching the keg size to your personal needs and wants. For example, I now brew 2.5 gallon batches. I found that 5 gallons of beer was not for me. Why 2.5 gallons? Well, that's about 20 pints, which often will last me about a month. I like to try commercial craft beer due to the seemingly endless varieties now available in the States. Let's say I want to brew a Vienna lager. I can pick up a dozen different commercial beers of that style, experience the differences, and come up with a recipe I think I'd like. Since I like to brew different styles of beers, 2.5-gallon batches free me up to sample more commercial beers and tweak the recipes after evaluating how the first batch came out. Another plus is that if a family member gives me a beer kit, I can simply divide the kit in half to fit my equipment.

As you can see, my experience learning my needs and wants enabled me to forego the standard 5-gallon keg route and opt for 2,5-gallon kegs. I assume I was not alone, as that keg size was available at a reasonable price from the homebrewer suppliers.

Lastly, I love kegging; I would focus on temperature control before I added kegging to my equipment. Fermentation temperature can have a discernable impact on the taste of your beer. While I don't think it's needed for a beginner brewer, IMO it is a logical variable to address into intermediate brewing.

 

[Bagarge]

as this is a beginner forum I'l try to limit my reply to the basics. Kegging is great and I keg and hate bottling. That being said there are basically 2 types of kegs, sanka and corny. Basically sanka kegs are what you see in bars and college parties. The CO2 in and Beer out are combined into a single connection. Those kegs lok like standard 1/2 barrels that are 15.5 gallons

Homebrewers usually use corny kegs with separate connections for CO2 in and beer out. Likely, because homebrewers initially recycled used soda kegs (corny style). Those soda kegs are 5-gallon size

I suspect the 5-gallon batch standard for homebrewing was partly due to the size of those soda kegs. But today, homebrew suppliers have responded to the various needs and wants of a more diversified homebrew market, and kegs are readily available in different sizes.

I suggest spending time perfecting your homebrewing method so you rely more on memory and instinct and less on instruction sheets (like a chef who will have a recipe, but can execute it without looking) and take note of your consumption habits, which may include giving away more or less of your brews after those initial batches

I recommend matching the keg size to your personal needs and wants. For example, I now brew 2.5 gallon batches. I found that 5 gallons of beer was not for me. Why 2.5 gallons? Well, that's about 20 pints, which often will last me about a month. I like to try commercial craft beer due to the seemingly endless varieties now available in the States. Let's say I want to brew a Vienna lager. I can pick up a dozen different commercial beers of that style, experience the differences, and come up with a recipe I think I'd like. Since I like to brew different styles of beers, 2.5-gallon batches free me up to sample more commercial beers and tweak the recipes after evaluating how the first batch came out. Another plus is that if a family member gives me a beer kit, I can simply divide the kit in half to fit my equipment.

As you can see, my experience learning my needs and wants enabled me to forego the standard 5-gallon keg route and opt for 2,5-gallon kegs. I assume I was not alone, as that keg size was available at a reasonable price from the homebrewer suppliers.

Lastly, I love kegging; I would focus on temperature control before I added kegging to my equipment. Fermentation temperature can have a discernable impact on the taste of your beer. While I don't think it's needed for a beginner brewer, IMO it is a logical variable to address into intermediate brewing.

Thanks for the detailed response my friend!

Basically i want to sell alot of my beer so size is what i am after. Where i live everybody sells their home produced wine but there is nobody doing beer.

My initial question was about the taps on the kegs in the picture. They are beer kegs for sure but i have never seen a tap on the barrel. They just came up for sale in the area and the person selling them was using them for aguadente ( a distillation of the wine pulp produced here ).

What i would like to know is can i store and age my beer in these kegs and connect co2 lines in? I would much prefer kegging larger quantities than bottling as i have to obviously source the bottles.

I just cant remember ever seeing taps on the bottom of a keg…

Edit: they are going dirt cheap at €50 for a 50 litre keg but i dont want to buy them if that tap will be an issue

 

[NSMikeD]

Thanks for the detailed response my friend!

Basically i want to sell alot of my beer so size is what i am after. Where i live everybody sells their home produced wine but there is nobody doing beer.

My initial question was about the taps on the kegs in the picture. They are beer kegs for sure but i have never seen a tap on the barrel. They just came up for sale in the area and the person selling them was using them for aguadente ( a distillation of the wine pulp produced here ).

What i would like to know is can i store and age my beer in these kegs and connect co2 lines in? I would much prefer kegging larger quantities than bottling as i have to obviously source the bottles.

I just cant remember ever seeing taps on the bottom of a keg…

This is for US sankey kegs. The coupler has a connection for the line in for the CO2. It then has a line out for the beer to a serving tap. Beer will most certainly condition in a keg


fwiw, even the most famous commerical craft brewers in the states will brew small batches on their old homebrew kits before deciding on a recipe they can scale up for sale.


how would your customers get your beer - would you serve from the taps to consume on premise like a bar or would they take home in some sort of container like bottles, cans or growlers.

Cartainly you can bottle, can or serve in a growler from a keg. There are kits that use a second CO2 line to a bottle filler to transfer beer from a keg to a bottle to keep the O2 out of the bottle. This is common for filling bottles to send to beer competitions.

Canning seems to be the preferred method for micro brewers to get their beer to the public. There are canning kits for the home brewer, again to transfer from a keg after the beer has carbonated and conditioned in the keg. A canning seamer (the device that put the lid on the can) does have a bigger start up cost but aluminum cans cost a little less than US$1 per can.

Growlers are just large bottles, usually with a ceramic flip top or a screw on plastic top and come on 1/2, full and 2 liters. In the States, you either rent (with a deposit) or buy your own growler and bring it to the brewery to fill and bring back home.

 

[mac_1103]

The spigots on those keg look like a DIY modification to me. I think you should ask the seller what the modified kegs were used for.

I also think you might get more/better responses if you post new questions to new threads. But I could be wrong about that.

 

[Bagarge]

This is for US sankey kegs. The coupler has a connection for the line in for the CO2. It then has a line out for the beer to a serving tap. Beer will most certainly condition in a keg


fwiw, even the most famous commerical craft brewers in the states will brew small batches on their old homebrew kits before deciding on a recipe they can scale up for sale.


how would your customers get your beer - would you serve from the taps to consume on premise like a bar or would they take home in some sort of container like bottles, cans or growlers.

Cartainly you can bottle, can or serve in a growler from a keg. There are kits that use a second CO2 line to a bottle filler to transfer beer from a keg to a bottle to keep the O2 out of the bottle. This is common for filling bottles to send to beer competitions.

Canning seems to be the preferred method for micro brewers to get their beer to the public. There are canning kits for the home brewer, again to transfer from a keg after the beer has carbonated and conditioned in the keg. A canning seamer (the device that put the lid on the can) does have a bigger start up cost but aluminum cans cost a little less than US$1 per can.

Growlers are just large bottles, usually with a ceramic flip top or a screw on plastic top and come on 1/2, full and 2 liters. In the States, you either rent (with a deposit) or buy your own growler and bring it to the brewery to fill and bring back home.



View attachment 842386

I would most likely be transferring to bottles or containers that people would bring to be filled. Or, bottle them from the keg. Im just looking at maturing beer on larger quantities in a singular keg rather than bottles everywhere. Plus i like the idea of force carbonating.

What is the use of the tap at tje bottom of the pic i sent? Im trying to work out wether they are worth buying

 

[Bagarge]

The spigots on those keg look like a DIY modification to me. I think you should ask the seller what the modified kegs were used for.

I also think you might get more/better responses if you post new questions to new threads. But I could be wrong about that.

That is what i was thinking. They look to be modified. The person selling them was using them to store hard liquor in them… if the spigots are a modification will i have problems ageing my beer in there with a co2 hook up?

 

[mac_1103]

The person selling them was using them to store hard liquor in them… if the spigots are a modification will i have problems ageing my beer in there with a co2 hook up?

I would be worried about how much pressure the spigots and the seals around them can handle.

 

[Bagarge]

I would be worried about how much pressure the spigots and the seals around them can handle.

Would that also be the case if i were to add priming sugar to the keg and mature without CO2? I will have to go and look at them i suppose…

 

[Rish]

Agree with mac, I don't think I'd trust those with co2. You could age the beer in those then transfer to kegs or bottles to carbonate when it is where you want it.