New England Esque IPA

[GuzzleMcBrew]

Considering the amounts of minerals I'd be a bit careful with the acid malts. From experience it's easy to end up with a mash pH slightly lower than ideal, and this coming from someone with very soft water. Still, better to end up slightly lower than slightly higher.

Elaborating further on your great observation here, I should mention that balancing salts and acidulated malts is key to end up with the right mineral content and PH (both mash and final). The salts I mentioned are based on an elaborate calculation for my water supply, quantity of water used, typical mash thickness, etc, etc. Feel free to PM me if anyone wants to talk about actually spring boarding off the skeleton above, as it is definitely not one size fits all.

 

[coldcrash1]

Come to think about it, cold break from rapid cooling after whirlpool is important, too. Big thing for keeping proteins in suspension that will hold onto the tasty hop oils. So many interrelated factors!

This sounds counterintuitive to me. A good cold break is going to drop protein out of suspension and leave it at the bottom of your kettle. Desirable for many beers but not for a beer like this. If you want that haze I'd think you would want to chill more slowly to avoid cold break, no?

 

[GuzzleMcBrew]

This sounds counterintuitive to me. A good cold break is going to drop protein out of suspension and leave it at the bottom of your kettle. Desirable for many beers but not for a beer like this. If you want that haze I'd think you would want to chill more slowly to avoid cold break, no?

Good point, and one I have considered many times (also, very appropriate given your TB handle!).
Edit: feel free to take or leave this post-I'm happy with my results but I am far from a scientist.


Seems counter-intuitive, yes, but some very experienced homebrewers as well as people in the industry have explained it to me like this; when you do flame out and whirlpool additions, you are releasing a huge number of volatile oils into suspension. Since the hop oils do not go through isomerization, rapid chilling is important to lock the hop oils into the beer since they wont naturally bond. Sure, some hop oils probably lock onto the coagulated proteins that drop out, but plenty lock on to stuff that sticks around in the beer, too. My beers end up hazy as all hell, despite the efforts I put into cooling (I made a rib cage double chiller that I pump ice water through in a closed circuit). I was told by a professional that I really respect that using a heat-exchanger or something of the like to get temps down as quickly as possible after a nice whirlpool is important to lock in flavor.

Also, I am using oats, flaked wheat, Marris Otter and Carapils. There is plenty of sticky and rich stuff in there where I am not too worried about losing some haze.

 

[coldcrash1]

Good point, and one I have considered many times (also, very appropriate given your TB handle!).
Edit: feel free to take or leave this post-I'm happy with my results but I am far from a scientist.


Seems counter-intuitive, yes, but some very experienced homebrewers as well as people in the industry have explained it to me like this; when you do flame out and whirlpool additions, you are releasing a huge number of volatile oils into suspension. Since the hop oils do not go through isomerization, rapid chilling is important to lock the hop oils into the beer since they wont naturally bond. Sure, some hop oils probably lock onto the coagulated proteins that drop out, but plenty lock on to stuff that sticks around in the beer, too. My beers end up hazy as all hell, despite the efforts I put into cooling (I made a rib cage double chiller that I pump ice water through in a closed circuit). I was told by a professional that I really respect that using a heat-exchanger or something of the like to get temps down as quickly as possible after a nice whirlpool is important to lock in flavor.

Also, I am using oats, flaked wheat, Marris Otter and Carapils. There is plenty of sticky and rich stuff in there where I am not too worried about losing some haze.

I'm going to assume you are somebody's hobby account and that I foolishly took your bait earlier.

 

[JCastle1]

Here's what mine looks like. Very cloudy:

 

[GuzzleMcBrew]

I'm going to assume you are somebody's hobby account and that I foolishly took your bait earlier.

¯\_(ツ)_/¯
I did actually go back and look at my post before and as stated it was very confusing. I revised it below. Sorry about that.

Come to think about it, [cold break from rapid cooling after whirlpool is important, too. Big thing for keeping proteins in suspension that will hold onto the tasty hop oils.Big thing for locking in tasty hop oils that do not isomerize. So many interrelated factors!

Take it or leave it, I am definitely not an expert. I have, however, made the beer depicted above and others with similar complexions that went through rapid cooling. Cheers.

 

[JulianB1]

Brewing an IPA of this sort on Wednesday, great thread with lots of info!

GuzzleMcBrew or anyone else who has had success with this style: do you deliberately lower your kettle ph to some target number, specifically one that's lower than what a "typical" beer shoots for? I've heard rumors of some brewers doing this, most notably Shaun Hill.

I'm working on my recipe now, I'll post it when complete for thoughts/criticism.

 

[GuzzleMcBrew]

Brewing an IPA of this sort on Wednesday, great thread with lots of info!

GuzzleMcBrew or anyone else who has had success with this style: do you deliberately lower your kettle ph to some target number, specifically one that's lower than what a "typical" beer shoots for? I've heard rumors of some brewers doing this, most notably Shaun Hill.

I'm working on my recipe now, I'll post it when complete for thoughts/criticism.

I shoot for 5.15-5.3 pH hoping to finish the product at around 4.4. i balance the mash contents and thickness with acidulated malt and minerals in my process to try and achieve this. I know way less about malt and the extraction process than the next guy, but it's gotten better with each tweak I have done to try and get this down. I recommend looking up some of th wardlabs analysis that are out there on HF and other hoppy beers.

No idea what Shaun does, but I would guess he has a sweet spot he targets for his hoppy stuff. I wonder if he adjusts acidity beyond just scaling it up or down for different beers; i.e. preferring one specific recipe be more acidic than another within a style for some effect.

 

[user 307594]

Brewing an IPA of this sort on Wednesday, great thread with lots of info!

GuzzleMcBrew or anyone else who has had success with this style: do you deliberately lower your kettle ph to some target number, specifically one that's lower than what a "typical" beer shoots for? I've heard rumors of some brewers doing this, most notably Shaun Hill.

I'm working on my recipe now, I'll post it when complete for thoughts/criticism.

What's your source water look like?

 

[JulianB1]

What's your source water look like?

According to the city (in ppm):

Ca: 2 Mg: 2 Na: 4 Cl: 4 SO4: 3 HC03: 24,

and 6.4 ph (??? this sounds low to me for some reason, but it's what my friends who own a brewery got in the water report they paid for - my cheap home ph meter reads it at closer to 7.0...). Based on some reading and discussions, I'm aiming for something like Ca: 110 Mg: 5 Na: 10 Cl: 125 S04: 125. Happy to take advice/be told why that's a bad idea.

 

[user 307594]

According to the city (in ppm):

Ca: 2 Mg: 2 Na: 4 Cl: 4 SO4: 3 HC03: 24,

and 6.4 ph (??? this sounds low to me for some reason, but it's what my friends who own a brewery got in the water report they paid for - my cheap home ph meter reads it at closer to 7.0...). Based on some reading and discussions, I'm aiming for something like Ca: 110 Mg: 5 Na: 10 Cl: 125 S04: 125. Happy to take advice/be told why that's a bad idea.

That's killer water, super low hardness and alkalinity. I use a pretty similar water profile. One key, imo, is acidifying the sparge water.

 

[GuzzleMcBrew]

natejohnson do you hit the strike and sparge water with acidity then? Just sparge? I am interested in this- I just use minerals in my strike water and then sparing acidulated malt in the mash.

Love your beers. Really enjoyed Bantam last time I stopped in.

 

[JulianB1]

That's killer water, super low hardness and alkalinity. I use a pretty similar water profile. One key, imo, is acidifying the sparge water.

Thanks a bunch! And I echo GuzzleMcBrew, I love your beers. Last time I was up there we had a great lunch at Pro Pig and a bunch of pours. Pro Pig IPA was a huge juice bomb and definitely the kind of thing I'm aiming for. Also really enjoyed Back To The Grind and Vanilla Bean Porter.

 

[user 307594]

Thanks guys; appreciate it. I do hit the strike with a touch of lactic, with such low alkalinity water there isn't a big need for major pH adjustments, as well as a touch in the sparge water.

 

[JulianB1]

Here's what I think I'm going to try. May still make some tweaks.

11lbs 2-Row
1lb Carapils
1lb White Wheat
1lb Flaked Oats

60 min mash @ 154F

4 gal H20 mash, 6 gal H20 sparge with water profile as above (Ca: 110 Mg: 5 Na: 10 Cl: 125 S04: 125). Target mash ph 5.25.

60 min boil

45 min 0.5oz Citra
15 min 0.5oz Citra 0.5oz Galaxy
5min 0.5oz Galaxy 0.5oz Mosaic
0min 1oz Citra 1oz Galaxy 10z Mosaic

Dry-Hop (~5 days) 1oz Citra 1oz Galaxy
Dry-Hop (~12 days) 1oz Citra 1oz Galaxy 0.5oz Mosaic

Yeast Bay Vermont ale yeast - 1.5L starter

Expecting something like 67% efficiency and 80% attenuation: OG 1070, FG 1010, 7.5% ABV, 6 SRM.

I'll report back on how it turned out.

 

[GuzzleMcBrew]

Sounds tight-Treat that yeast right and you will prosper. Maybe try allowing free rise to 68 or so after the vigorous part of primary slows to let the yeast express itself a little bit and do your first dry hop then.

 

[Vogt52]

According to the city (in ppm):

Ca: 2 Mg: 2 Na: 4 Cl: 4 SO4: 3 HC03: 24,

and 6.4 ph (??? this sounds low to me for some reason, but it's what my friends who own a brewery got in the water report they paid for - my cheap home ph meter reads it at closer to 7.0...). Based on some reading and discussions, I'm aiming for something like Ca: 110 Mg: 5 Na: 10 Cl: 125 S04: 125. Happy to take advice/be told why that's a bad idea.

That's a pretty balanced SO4:Cl ratio for an IPA. What's the reasoning? I'm still fairly new to water chemistry.

 

[More Betterness]

That's a pretty balanced SO4:Cl ratio for an IPA. What's the reasoning? I'm still fairly new to water chemistry.

Higher levels of Cl than the typical "West Coast" water profile are thought to be one of the factors that give this style of IPA such a full/airy mouthfeel. I've seen people go as high as 2:1 Cl to SO4 with good results.

 

[FTowne1]

Here's what I think I'm going to try. May still make some tweaks.

11lbs 2-Row
1lb Carapils
1lb White Wheat
1lb Flaked Oats

60 min mash @ 154F

4 gal H20 mash, 6 gal H20 sparge with water profile as above (Ca: 110 Mg: 5 Na: 10 Cl: 125 S04: 125). Target mash ph 5.25.

60 min boil

45 min 0.5oz Citra
15 min 0.5oz Citra 0.5oz Galaxy
5min 0.5oz Galaxy 0.5oz Mosaic
0min 1oz Citra 1oz Galaxy 10z Mosaic

Dry-Hop (~5 days) 1oz Citra 1oz Galaxy
Dry-Hop (~12 days) 1oz Citra 1oz Galaxy 0.5oz Mosaic

Yeast Bay Vermont ale yeast - 1.5L starter

Expecting something like 67% efficiency and 80% attenuation: OG 1070, FG 1010, 7.5% ABV, 6 SRM.

I'll report back on how it turned out.

I've had bad results from dry hopping any longer than 7 days. I get the cooked/rotting vegetable flavor after a while.

 

[JulianB1]

I've had bad results from dry hopping any longer than 7 days. I get the cooked/rotting vegetable flavor after a while.

I was kind of following what GuzzleMcBrew posted about dry-hopping after primary (that's the 5 days) and then after racking (that's the 12 days). Then kegging a few days after that. Although often I just do a single big dry-hop a little under a week before I plan to keg it.

 

[GuzzleMcBrew]

I've had bad results from dry hopping any longer than 7 days. I get the cooked/rotting vegetable flavor after a while.

I do one treatment for about 4-5 days with the yeast also scrubbing the hops/interacting with them at the end of primary. I then pull the beer off it and do another treatment for 2 more days or less on the fresh hops under pressure. Max time in both cases; Never more, for your reason.


Edit: It should be noted that my process has worked smoothly to date, but if primary stalled and my points didn't get down as quickly as usual, I suppose I would have to either rack over to a purged vessel or leave the beer on the hops a little longer. I would probably do the prior or just rack to keg early and expect a little more trub inevitably at the bottom of the serving vessel.

 

[FTowne1]

I was kind of following what GuzzleMcBrew posted about dry-hopping after primary (that's the 5 days) and then after racking (that's the 12 days). Then kegging a few days after that. Although often I just do a single big dry-hop a little under a week before I plan to keg it.

I do one treatment for about 4-5 days with the yeast also scrubbing the hops/interacting with them at the end of primary. I then pull the beer off it and do another treatment for 2 more days or less on the fresh hops under pressure. Max time in both cases; Never more, for your reason.

My bad. I misread what you guys were doing.

Carry on....

 

[Vogt52]

Higher levels of Cl than the typical "West Coast" water profile are thought to be one of the factors that give this style of IPA such a full/airy mouthfeel. I've seen people go as high as 2:1 Cl to SO4 with good results.

That's what I was alluding to. Typically you'll see a SO4:Cl ratio of 1.5 - 2 to accentuate hop bitterness. I guess the balance is what gives the silky mouthfeel?

 

[SirDickButts]

That's what I was alluding to. Typically you'll see a SO4:Cl ratio of 1.5 - 2 to accentuate hop bitterness. I guess the balance is what gives the silky mouthfeel?

A ratio of SO4<Cl gives it sweeter/maltier balance/taste. SO4>Cl accentuates hop bitterness. The silky mouthfeel comes from adding flaked oats to the grain bill.

 

[SirDickButts]

I've had bad results from dry hopping any longer than 7 days. I get the cooked/rotting vegetable flavor after a while.

I dry hop in the keg while it's cold crashing/carbing (3 weeks until empty). I've never experience the vegetal taste. I'm also sure that's why my dry hopped beers are not super dank. It's more on the fruity aromatic side, which I dig.

 

[Vogt52]

A ratio of SO4<Cl gives it sweeter/maltier balance/taste. SO4>Cl accentuates hop bitterness. The silky mouthfeel comes from adding flaked oats to the grain bill.

So back to my original question, why the balanced SO4 : Cl ratio?

 

[SirDickButts]

So back to my original question, why the balanced SO4 : Cl ratio?

are you referring to JulianB water profile? if so...the ppm for sulfate is actually 9.
when your water report reads sulfate as SO4, you multiply by 3 to get the PPM.

as far as a balanced sulfate:chloride for preference, its just that. a balanced bitter/sweet profile.
so for a New England style IPA, i would definitely consider a balanced sulfate:chloride (maybe closer to a 1:1.5-1.75),
because its more on the fruitier side of the IPA realm.

 

[GuzzleMcBrew]

To anyone getting into the water stuff like this, I highly recommend reading through the thread I posted way back (I think on page one) that is focused on the wardlabs Heady Topper analysis. It's enlightening.

 

[More Betterness]

http://scottjanish.com/chasing-mouthfeel-softness/

Good summary of most thoughts regarding this style floating around out there.

 

[Vogt52]

http://scottjanish.com/chasing-mouthfeel-softness/

Good summary of most thoughts regarding this style floating around out there.

Awesome read! Thanks!