New England Esque IPA

[user 307594]

According to the city (in ppm):

Ca: 2 Mg: 2 Na: 4 Cl: 4 SO4: 3 HC03: 24,

and 6.4 ph (??? this sounds low to me for some reason, but it's what my friends who own a brewery got in the water report they paid for - my cheap home ph meter reads it at closer to 7.0...). Based on some reading and discussions, I'm aiming for something like Ca: 110 Mg: 5 Na: 10 Cl: 125 S04: 125. Happy to take advice/be told why that's a bad idea.

That's killer water, super low hardness and alkalinity. I use a pretty similar water profile. One key, imo, is acidifying the sparge water.

 

[GuzzleMcBrew]

natejohnson do you hit the strike and sparge water with acidity then? Just sparge? I am interested in this- I just use minerals in my strike water and then sparing acidulated malt in the mash.

Love your beers. Really enjoyed Bantam last time I stopped in.

 

[JulianB1]

That's killer water, super low hardness and alkalinity. I use a pretty similar water profile. One key, imo, is acidifying the sparge water.

Thanks a bunch! And I echo GuzzleMcBrew, I love your beers. Last time I was up there we had a great lunch at Pro Pig and a bunch of pours. Pro Pig IPA was a huge juice bomb and definitely the kind of thing I'm aiming for. Also really enjoyed Back To The Grind and Vanilla Bean Porter.

 

[user 307594]

Thanks guys; appreciate it. I do hit the strike with a touch of lactic, with such low alkalinity water there isn't a big need for major pH adjustments, as well as a touch in the sparge water.

 

[JulianB1]

Here's what I think I'm going to try. May still make some tweaks.

11lbs 2-Row
1lb Carapils
1lb White Wheat
1lb Flaked Oats

60 min mash @ 154F

4 gal H20 mash, 6 gal H20 sparge with water profile as above (Ca: 110 Mg: 5 Na: 10 Cl: 125 S04: 125). Target mash ph 5.25.

60 min boil

45 min 0.5oz Citra
15 min 0.5oz Citra 0.5oz Galaxy
5min 0.5oz Galaxy 0.5oz Mosaic
0min 1oz Citra 1oz Galaxy 10z Mosaic

Dry-Hop (~5 days) 1oz Citra 1oz Galaxy
Dry-Hop (~12 days) 1oz Citra 1oz Galaxy 0.5oz Mosaic

Yeast Bay Vermont ale yeast - 1.5L starter

Expecting something like 67% efficiency and 80% attenuation: OG 1070, FG 1010, 7.5% ABV, 6 SRM.

I'll report back on how it turned out.

 

[GuzzleMcBrew]

Sounds tight-Treat that yeast right and you will prosper. Maybe try allowing free rise to 68 or so after the vigorous part of primary slows to let the yeast express itself a little bit and do your first dry hop then.

 

[Vogt52]

According to the city (in ppm):

Ca: 2 Mg: 2 Na: 4 Cl: 4 SO4: 3 HC03: 24,

and 6.4 ph (??? this sounds low to me for some reason, but it's what my friends who own a brewery got in the water report they paid for - my cheap home ph meter reads it at closer to 7.0...). Based on some reading and discussions, I'm aiming for something like Ca: 110 Mg: 5 Na: 10 Cl: 125 S04: 125. Happy to take advice/be told why that's a bad idea.

That's a pretty balanced SO4:Cl ratio for an IPA. What's the reasoning? I'm still fairly new to water chemistry.

 

[More Betterness]

That's a pretty balanced SO4:Cl ratio for an IPA. What's the reasoning? I'm still fairly new to water chemistry.

Higher levels of Cl than the typical "West Coast" water profile are thought to be one of the factors that give this style of IPA such a full/airy mouthfeel. I've seen people go as high as 2:1 Cl to SO4 with good results.

 

[FTowne1]

Here's what I think I'm going to try. May still make some tweaks.

11lbs 2-Row
1lb Carapils
1lb White Wheat
1lb Flaked Oats

60 min mash @ 154F

4 gal H20 mash, 6 gal H20 sparge with water profile as above (Ca: 110 Mg: 5 Na: 10 Cl: 125 S04: 125). Target mash ph 5.25.

60 min boil

45 min 0.5oz Citra
15 min 0.5oz Citra 0.5oz Galaxy
5min 0.5oz Galaxy 0.5oz Mosaic
0min 1oz Citra 1oz Galaxy 10z Mosaic

Dry-Hop (~5 days) 1oz Citra 1oz Galaxy
Dry-Hop (~12 days) 1oz Citra 1oz Galaxy 0.5oz Mosaic

Yeast Bay Vermont ale yeast - 1.5L starter

Expecting something like 67% efficiency and 80% attenuation: OG 1070, FG 1010, 7.5% ABV, 6 SRM.

I'll report back on how it turned out.

I've had bad results from dry hopping any longer than 7 days. I get the cooked/rotting vegetable flavor after a while.

 

[JulianB1]

I've had bad results from dry hopping any longer than 7 days. I get the cooked/rotting vegetable flavor after a while.

I was kind of following what GuzzleMcBrew posted about dry-hopping after primary (that's the 5 days) and then after racking (that's the 12 days). Then kegging a few days after that. Although often I just do a single big dry-hop a little under a week before I plan to keg it.

 

[GuzzleMcBrew]

I've had bad results from dry hopping any longer than 7 days. I get the cooked/rotting vegetable flavor after a while.

I do one treatment for about 4-5 days with the yeast also scrubbing the hops/interacting with them at the end of primary. I then pull the beer off it and do another treatment for 2 more days or less on the fresh hops under pressure. Max time in both cases; Never more, for your reason.


Edit: It should be noted that my process has worked smoothly to date, but if primary stalled and my points didn't get down as quickly as usual, I suppose I would have to either rack over to a purged vessel or leave the beer on the hops a little longer. I would probably do the prior or just rack to keg early and expect a little more trub inevitably at the bottom of the serving vessel.

 

[FTowne1]

I was kind of following what GuzzleMcBrew posted about dry-hopping after primary (that's the 5 days) and then after racking (that's the 12 days). Then kegging a few days after that. Although often I just do a single big dry-hop a little under a week before I plan to keg it.

I do one treatment for about 4-5 days with the yeast also scrubbing the hops/interacting with them at the end of primary. I then pull the beer off it and do another treatment for 2 more days or less on the fresh hops under pressure. Max time in both cases; Never more, for your reason.

My bad. I misread what you guys were doing.

Carry on....

 

[Vogt52]

Higher levels of Cl than the typical "West Coast" water profile are thought to be one of the factors that give this style of IPA such a full/airy mouthfeel. I've seen people go as high as 2:1 Cl to SO4 with good results.

That's what I was alluding to. Typically you'll see a SO4:Cl ratio of 1.5 - 2 to accentuate hop bitterness. I guess the balance is what gives the silky mouthfeel?

 

[SirDickButts]

That's what I was alluding to. Typically you'll see a SO4:Cl ratio of 1.5 - 2 to accentuate hop bitterness. I guess the balance is what gives the silky mouthfeel?

A ratio of SO4<Cl gives it sweeter/maltier balance/taste. SO4>Cl accentuates hop bitterness. The silky mouthfeel comes from adding flaked oats to the grain bill.

 

[SirDickButts]

I've had bad results from dry hopping any longer than 7 days. I get the cooked/rotting vegetable flavor after a while.

I dry hop in the keg while it's cold crashing/carbing (3 weeks until empty). I've never experience the vegetal taste. I'm also sure that's why my dry hopped beers are not super dank. It's more on the fruity aromatic side, which I dig.

 

[Vogt52]

A ratio of SO4<Cl gives it sweeter/maltier balance/taste. SO4>Cl accentuates hop bitterness. The silky mouthfeel comes from adding flaked oats to the grain bill.

So back to my original question, why the balanced SO4 : Cl ratio?

 

[SirDickButts]

So back to my original question, why the balanced SO4 : Cl ratio?

are you referring to JulianB water profile? if so...the ppm for sulfate is actually 9.
when your water report reads sulfate as SO4, you multiply by 3 to get the PPM.

as far as a balanced sulfate:chloride for preference, its just that. a balanced bitter/sweet profile.
so for a New England style IPA, i would definitely consider a balanced sulfate:chloride (maybe closer to a 1:1.5-1.75),
because its more on the fruitier side of the IPA realm.

 

[GuzzleMcBrew]

To anyone getting into the water stuff like this, I highly recommend reading through the thread I posted way back (I think on page one) that is focused on the wardlabs Heady Topper analysis. It's enlightening.

 

[More Betterness]

http://scottjanish.com/chasing-mouthfeel-softness/

Good summary of most thoughts regarding this style floating around out there.

 

[Vogt52]

http://scottjanish.com/chasing-mouthfeel-softness/

Good summary of most thoughts regarding this style floating around out there.

Awesome read! Thanks!

 

[psnydez861]

Flaked oats/wheat is something that can be used in this style, but certainly isn't a necessity. A lot of Trillium beers don't have any flaked grains from what I hear. English yeast is the general consensus, but I know people that take stabs at the style with various strains. High Chloride to Gypsum is a big one, maybe the most important one....
And big hopping rates with high oil content hops... in particular dry hop rates....

6oz dry hop for 5 gallons of 1.055OG beer is a nice amount....say maybe 9-12 oz dry hops for beers with OG's of 1.070 and up.....

These beers certainly aren't cheap.

 

[drgarage1]

Flaked oats/wheat is something that can be used in this style, but certainly isn't a necessity. A lot of Trillium beers don't have any flaked grains from what I hear. English yeast is the general consensus, but I know people that take stabs at the style with various strains. High Chloride to Gypsum is a big one, maybe the most important one....
And big hopping rates with high oil content hops... in particular dry hop rates....

6oz dry hop for 5 gallons of 1.055OG beer is a nice amount....say maybe 9-12 oz dry hops for beers with OG's of 1.070 and up.....

These beers certainly aren't cheap.

In my experience, you need to adjust bittering somewhat, as the suspended hop oils (with London Ale III) from late kettle additions will dial up IBUs more than with typical flameout additions.

 

[psnydez861]

drgarage I have done some of these beers with just flame out additions and agree they do generate a lot of IBU's while sitting hot....I've even noticed a decent amount of bitterness being extracted when doing "cooler" whirlpool temps of 170 and below.

 

[JulianB1]

Aroma is juniper and citrus, taste is peach, juniper, and more citrus. Can't believe I brewed this. I might actually be figuring something out in this homebrewing game.

That or I just got lucky.

 

[anteater1]

Aroma is juniper and citrus, taste is peach, juniper, and more citrus. Can't believe I brewed this. I might actually be figuring something out in this homebrewing game.

That or I just got lucky.

Dude I couldn't believe it either when I brewed that recipe similar to yours. That citra mosaic galaxy combination with 1318 is magic. Keg kicked in 6 days.

 

[fiver29]

So is it really just the yeast that makes the turbid difference? I haven't checked. Guessing 1318 has a low flocculation rate? Or is there some other process producing the cloudiness? This is clearly not chill haze occurring.

 

[JCastle1]

So is it really just the yeast that makes the turbid difference? I haven't checked. Guessing 1318 has a low flocculation rate? Or is there some other process producing the cloudiness? This is clearly not chill haze occurring.

I use plain old US-05 with mine just because dry yeast is less of a pain for me. I just skip the Irish moss, gelatin, cold-crashing, etc that I usually do.

 

[masterovkhaos]

So is it really just the yeast that makes the turbid difference? I haven't checked. Guessing 1318 has a low flocculation rate? Or is there some other process producing the cloudiness? This is clearly not chill haze occurring.

Conan has always done the job for me. I now use a blend of conan/sacch trois. Absurd dry hopping rates help too. I also tend to often use flaked wheat or oats.

Of course, I do this all for flavor and because cold crashing is a waste of time to me, not for the appearance.

 

[drgarage1]

So is it really just the yeast that makes the turbid difference? I haven't checked. Guessing 1318 has a low flocculation rate? Or is there some other process producing the cloudiness? This is clearly not chill haze occurring.

1318 also behaves in interesting ways depending on dry hopping technique.

 

[fiver29]

1318 also behaves in interesting ways depending on dry hopping technique.

Please describe.

 

[axeman91821]

^ Also interested to hear more. I'm using 1318 for the first time this weekend in an IPA.

 

[Ziggy]

Aroma is juniper and citrus, taste is peach, juniper, and more citrus. Can't believe I brewed this. I might actually be figuring something out in this homebrewing game.

That or I just got lucky.

Do you use a temp controlled fermentation chamber?

 

[drgarage1]

^ Also interested to hear more. I'm using 1318 for the first time this weekend in an IPA.

GuzzleMcBrew could tell you much better than me. Key is to dry-hop in primary.

 

[GuzzleMcBrew]

Basically, with some protein in the grist from the flaked malts, 1318 leaves a lot behind when dry hopping at the end of primary. Lots of aroma left on the stuff that sticks to it.

The live resin of hops.



Edit: my original response actually referred to this thread- whoops! I'm at Pizza Port right now...
Quoted from earlier in the thread, bold for emphasis.

I'm about to rock my New England esque IPA again this weekend if all goes well. I've gotten it to where results are somewhere between HF, Trillium and TH. Can't wait, I might split this batch to do two dryhop treatments.

I have a very specific water profile I aim for to finish with crazy sulfide/chloride levels to get close to that of lab analysis of Heady Topper. Involves dechlorinated water (I usually mash with 10 gallons to collect 6.5) and adding 16 g Gypsum, 7g CaCl, 4 g Epsom salt to the mash, and using a bit of acidulated malt.

Mostly 2Row/Marris Otter Blend (I might sub a little pilsner this time, but Marris is a key part of the recipe)
Little flaked Wheat and Rolled Oats
Little Carapils
Little C10
Little Honey Malt
Little table sugar

Most importantly, 1318 YEAST

Mash 154*
75 minute boil

.4 Columbus @ 45
.3 Columbus, .5 Mosaic, .7 Citra @ 5 (I would be careful with quantity of things like Equinox or Galaxy)
.5 Mosaic, .5 Galaxy @ 0
Whirlpool 3 combined ounces of aroma hops at 190-170* for like 20 minutes (above or whatever you are going to dry hop with - Nelson, Amarillo, Equinox, whatever)

Dry hop on days 3 or 4 at the end of primary and again in the keg after racking on day 9 or so when a good amount of yeast has dropped. The amount you dry hop is dependent on the hop you use and your tolerance for garlic/green onion vegetal flavors. I stick to about 4 oz total split evenly. Let it sit at 68-70 with the hops and then pull the mesh hop bag out of the keg and force carb for a week. It'll look like juice, smell like juice and it will taste like muddafuggin juice.

 

[fiver29]

Basically, with some protein in the grist from the flaked malts, 1318 leaves a lot behind when dry hopping at the end of primary. Lots of aroma left on the stuff that sticks to it.

The live resin of hops.



Edit: my original response actually referred to this thread- whoops! I'm at Pizza Port right now...
Quoted from earlier in the thread, bold for emphasis.

At what point do you dry hop in the primary?

 

[JCastle1]

At what point do you dry hop in the primary?

I dry hop when fermentation is pretty much done (also primary, never done secondary for IPAs). Not sure how true this is but from what I've heard the bubbling can expel some of the hop aromas which would defeat the purpose.

 

[fiver29]

I dry hop when fermentation is pretty much done (also primary, never done secondary for IPAs). Not sure how true this is but from what I've heard the bubbling can expel some of the hop aromas which would defeat the purpose.

To clarify, you mean the fermentation will prevent hop aroma in the finished product? How does that happen?

 

[Five28 hz]

To clarify, you mean the fermentation will prevent hop aroma in the finished product? How does that happen?

Co2 off gassing during active fermentation will take some of the hop aroma with it

 

[GuzzleMcBrew]

I feel that the Co2 off-gassing concept is real, but since my primary dry-hop is coupled with a second dose and a preliminary whirlpool I am not too worried about it.

 

[interman1]

I've been using 1318 for many batches now, and my best results have been from dry hopping in a hop bag in a keg for about four days, and transfering to a co2 purged keg afterwards. I flip the dry hop keg a few times pr day during that time, and I've never had better hop aroma, flavor and stability. I don't miss end of primary dry hopping, cold crashing, etc.