Need to get away from the kits

[richm20]

So I just finished off a double IPA kit. Looking forward to sipping this one.
I would like to get away from kits and start buying ingredients, this way I can buy in bulk, learn what I like, change things up a bit if I wish.
Here is the problem, I'm a noob and don't have a clue. I see a DFH 60 min. clone recipe in the recipe section but dont know how I should go about picking the proper extract, hops, sugar..... You know the deal.

Thanks

 

[kev211]

Im commenting just as a way of subscribing to this post because I have the same questions. Kits are great cuz they make it less easy to screw up but I would love to have the versatility of my own all grain batch. Problem is where to start...

 

[vNmd]

That was my goal for this year, to get away from kits. Last year was my first year brewing and I did kits (lots of them) of all different types. I didn't know much so I was relying on someone else to put together the ingredients. I do BIAB so my choices of ingredients is vast. Doing kits for me was a great way to start. I kept the recipes (AHS). This year I wanted to get away from kits, so I started taking some of the recipes I had from kits, some from this site, and some from magazines and things have been working out fairly well. Since grain can have some different names depending on where you buy, I have had to ask what a particular source calls a particular grain (caravienna comes to mind). I keep a note of it so I will know next time.

The kits allow you to work on your processes. Get them down to where you feel comfortable and are ready to expand and learn more. Check the recipe section here. There is loads of great info and recipes. Then dive in! Ask questions. Your DFH example, post a question in that recipe thread. People here are more than happy to help since we were all beginners at one time and had questions to ask. If you have a HB shop near by, as them questions. I am basically a quiet person (I haven't asked for directions yet) but I will ask the people at my lhbs questions and for their opinion.

 

[Mike_kever_kombi]

If you find a recipe, it should have all that spelled out. No guess work. You should not have to decipher what hope, extract etc to use. The only problems you may encounter are, effiency, extract to all grain or vice versa, or volume.

Those are all easy variables to overcome with brewing software. If you are not in a place where you can afford brewing software, there are many free calculators and such on line. I use mybrewco.com but there are many other equally good ones.

If someone has a recipe with 75% efficiency, but you only get 60, just input ingredients listed, and "convert", and it will adjust weights automatically.

Is the recipe for 10 gallons but you only want 5, guess what, just convert

Is the recipe listed all grain, but you can only do extract? Again just convert.

And as others have said, just ask questions. Most here are willing to help, and offer really solid advice.

 

[ol-hazza]

Nice work on deciding to step it up a notch, and dont worry, I've seen into the future and this all works out relatively ok.

The way I see it from here you have some decisions to make, firstly do you want to continue to use extract or go all grain?

Either way you will want to check out some brewing software. I use brewersfriend.com which is free to trial online and I think its pretty sharp. This will allow you to check different ingredients against style for colour, IBU's and ABV.

If you continue to use extract (nothing against this method at all, I'm still trying to get my all grain up to the standard of my extract beers) I would recommend starting with Light unhopped liquid extract (purely because this is what I did so know it works) and then add your specialty grains and hops.

Hops wise I would stick with what the recipes suggest, there are just too many for a beginning brewer to get their head around.

If you want to go all grain and have complete control of your beer, I suggest Brew in a Bag (BIAB) where recipes don't need to be converted at all, however you may want to increase the grain bill to male up for lack of efficiency (which you may not even have).

Hope this makes sense, it is a bit rambling but moral of the story is familiarise yourself with some brewing software to help pick your ingredients.

 

[LLBeanJ]

As one who has never brewed a kit before, I would say that vNmd pretty much nailed it.

I would add... if you don't yet own it, drop $20 and buy a copy of Beersmith and learn how to use it. There are free software options out there that many on this forum seem to like, but BS is the Holy Grail of brewing software, hands down. Why is it better? Because it gives you the ability to fine tune just about every aspect of your brewing in ways that the others do not.

Next, if you don't already own it, buy a copy of Jamil's Brewing Classic Styles. Besides having an award winning, baseline recipe for pretty much every BJCP style, there is a wealth of brewing knowledge contained within those pages. It will help you become a better brewer.

Finally, find recipes (from BCS, this forum, BYO, the web) you think you would like to brew and input them into BS and brew them. After a short while, you will begin to get a feel for making tweaks here and there, and before long you will be putting together your own recipes.

 

[richm20]

Lets say Im not ready to build a mash ton just yet and decide to go the BIAB route. Do I simply use all grain recipes or something special?
I guess I need to look around for a DIY BIAB setup

 

[Yooper]

Lets say Im not ready to build a mash ton just yet and decide to go the BIAB route. Do I simply use all grain recipes or something special?
I guess I need to look around for a DIY BIAB setup

All grain is all grain, whether in a bag in a mashtun, so you'd want an all-grain recipe.

That said, it's super easy to convert any recipe to a BIAB all-grain, and we'd be glad to help with that.

We have a really nice recipe database here, with only proven recipes so you can feel free to choose one that looks good to you. Reading a recipe may not be intuitive at first, so if you post a question on the forum about anything that isn't clear (how long to boil, when to add certain hops, etc), someone will be quick to help out.

 

[ericbw]

All grain is all grain, whether in a bag in a mashtun, so you'd want an all-grain recipe.

That said, it's super easy to convert any recipe to a BIAB all-grain, and we'd be glad to help with that.

We have a really nice recipe database here, with only proven recipes so you can feel free to choose one that looks good to you. Reading a recipe may not be intuitive at first, so if you post a question on the forum about anything that isn't clear (how long to boil, when to add certain hops, etc), someone will be quick to help out.

And when you look in the recipe database, it helps to read through the thread. Chances are, someone already asked about scaling it down, converting to extract, alternative ingredients, etc. And many times, you'll find that the original recipe gets tweaked and re-posted. So you learn about the process others use AND you get the updated recipe in the thread. (I wouldn't read ALL of the posts, as some are pretty long!)

Also, with all grain, you need to learn your efficiency for your system, regardless of using a mash tun or using a bag. Your set up will differ slightly from others. So the first few times doing all grain might give you different results from all the variables, but if you take careful notes, you'll understand how your setup works and be able to adjust accordingly.

If you've been doing extract kits, maybe the first step is to do a recipe with extract and steeping grains where you buy all the ingredients. Then the next step is all grain in a bag. Or maybe you could try a small batch all grain - plenty of 1 gallon recipes out there. Then you get a handle on the process with small amounts (and less time).

 

[Dixon9717]

Your LHBS should have a nice selection of recipes with all the instructions. I got bored with kits after about 3 and started using their recipes. Were I shop they are very helpful and like to give advice and help you create an original. Been creating my own ever since. I've only been brewing about a year so I am far from knowing very much.

 

[richm20]

Thanks for the help. Im still a bit confused, If I find a recipe for an all grain, will I need to modify the grain amounts if I'm doing BIAB?
As far as LHBS, I have a few but they are really only good for emergency supplies, staple ingredients, and commercial type recipe kits. I believe I may have a decent shop South of me that I'll try and scope out this weekend.

 

[Darwin18]

A copy of Designing Great Beers and BeerSmith is really all you need. I still brew quite often out of Brewing Classic Styles - most, not all but most, are very good recipes. You can do a Google search for the winning NHC recipes for each year if you're looking for really top of the line recipes.

 

[BadDeacon]

Thanks for the help. Im still a bit confused, If I find a recipe for an all grain, will I need to modify the grain amounts if I'm doing BIAB?
As far as LHBS, I have a few but they are really only good for emergency supplies, staple ingredients, and commercial type recipe kits. I believe I may have a decent shop South of me that I'll try and scope out this weekend.

I do BIAB and just use the all grain values.

I also would suggest reading through recipe threads because a lot of times folks make their own tweaks and report back as a way of comparison. The first recipe posted might not be the current 'closest' recipe.

 

[richm20]

Trust me, I'm a reader.

 

[JohnSand]

Good advice from all. I also suggest buying a book on basic brewing. You can even read Palmer's How to Brew online. Study and practice.

 

[richm20]

Basic brewing isn't the issue. Kicking my brewing up a notch is the "issue"

 

[Yooper]

Basic brewing isn't the issue. Kicking my brewing up a notch is the "issue"

I don't understand what you are saying. Brewing from a kit or a recipe is pretty basic. If you want to formulate recipes, that would be a good step but you may want to use some resource material like brewing software or a book like Designing Great Beers.

Following a beer recipe is like reading a cookbook- a piece of cake. It doesn't "take it up a notch" as it's still pretty darn easy. If following a recipe is difficult at this point, keep trying. If it's easy, then go to the next step. But I still don't know what you mean by "kicking my brewing up a notch". If the beer is great, you're good. If it's not, then the basics need to be the issue.

 

[richm20]

opening a box and dumping in the contents is basic brewing, its like ramen noodles. Going all grain, buying individual ingredients, swapping ingredients, customizing the recipe, etc are all kicking it up a notch.

 

[ericbw]

opening a box and dumping in the contents is basic brewing, its like ramen noodles. Going all grain, buying individual ingredients, swapping ingredients, customizing the recipe, etc are all kicking it up a notch.

There are steps to it. One notch would be buying ingredients for an extract batch with steeping grains. That means getting certain amounts of grains and hops; steeping for a certain amount of time; boiling and following a hop schedule. Thats one notch.

What you described is kicking it up a lot of notches.

 

[Yooper]

opening a box and dumping in the contents is basic brewing, its like ramen noodles. Going all grain, buying individual ingredients, swapping ingredients, customizing the recipe, etc are all kicking it up a notch.

Ah, I see what you mean.

See, to me, "basic brewing" is learning about proper yeast pitching rates and temperature, controlling fermentation temperature, proper siphoning and packaging, etc. That's all "basics" that have to be mastered before even considering changing ingredients.

I think that is where we're not understanding where you want to go. Before advancing from extract and steeping grain kits, the basics of yeast starters and pitching rates should be mastered. Following an extract recipe should be easy, before trying to make an all-grain recipe.

"kicking it up a notch" to me means making a perfect beer using basic techniques before even considering changing up a recipe.

Some of the award winning beers in competition are extract beers. I've had some fantastic extract beers, if the brewer is a skilled brewer. I've had some horrible all-grain beers. It's not the customizing of a recipe that makes a beer good- it's 100% related to technique.

Mastering the basics means nothing about a recipe or ingredients. Technique and skill is all.

I mean aside from those crappy "cooper's kits" with the prehopped extract where you mix water and sugar and make beer. Those kits are junk, unless you don't follow the instructions and go a whole different way. But I'm talking about fresh extract and fresh grains and a good quality yeast. If you cant' make good beer (or even great beer) with that type of kit or recipe, then the basics are not mastered.

 

[Yooper]

So I just finished off a double IPA kit. Looking forward to sipping this one.
I would like to get away from kits and start buying ingredients, this way I can buy in bulk, learn what I like, change things up a bit if I wish.
Here is the problem, I'm a noob and don't have a clue. I see a DFH 60 min. clone recipe in the recipe section but dont know how I should go about picking the proper extract, hops, sugar..... You know the deal.

Thanks

Here's what I mean- you said, "I'm a noob and don't have a clue. I see a DFH 60 min. clone recipe in the recipe section but dont know how I should go about picking the proper extract, hops, sugar....."

But here is a recipe, and all of the ingredients are listed along with directions. Why do you want to change it, if you didn't even make it? It's a good solid recipe, and the instructions are simple. Why not make something like this, before trying to change the extract and hops (and sugar?)?

This is a basic recipe for a brand new brewer. It certainly can be changed, of course, but without even knowing what the ingredients are, or what they do, why would someone want to "take it up a notch"? I just don't get it.


DFH clone

Batch Size: 5.00 gal
Boil Size: 2.5 gal
Estimated OG: 1.072 SG
Estimated Color: 13.1 SRM
Estimated IBU: 49.8 IBU

Boil Time: 60 Minutes

Ingredients:

Amount Item Type % or IBU
9.5 lbs Pale Liquid Extract (8.0 SRM) Extract 90.83 %
1 lbs Caramel/Crystal Malt 40L (40.0 SRM) Grain 9.17 %

1.25 oz Warrior [15.00 %] (60 min) Hops 26.7 IBU
(Read notes!)

1.00 oz Amarillo Gold [8.50 %] (35 min) Hops 10.0 IBU
1.00 oz Simcoe [12.00 %] (30 min) Hops 13.1 IBU
(Read notes!

1.00 oz Amarillo Gold [8.50 %] (Dry Hop 7 days) Hops
0.50 oz Simcoe [12.00 %] (Dry Hop 7 days) Hops

Notes:

Pacman yeast used, but any clean well attenuating yeast can be used. Try WLP001, Nottingham, or 1056 if pacman is not available.

Hops were added as continuous first warrior for the first 25 minutes ( approximately half at 60 minutes, then a little bit at a time until 35 minutes was left in the boil). Then the rest of the hops were mixed together, and added continuously at 35 minutes.

You can use dry malt extract instead of the liquid if you=d like- use 8 pounds of DME instead.

Directions:

Steep the crystal in a grain bag in 2.5 gallons of water at 150-155 degrees for 20 minutes. Remove the grains, and discard them. Bring that tea to a boil. When it is boiling, remove it from the heat (take it OFF the burner!) And stir in the LME. Put it back on the burner, and bring it to a boil. When it is boiling, add approximately half of the warrior hops you have. Set the timer for 60 minutes. After that, continue adding a pellet or two or five, every minute or so, until there is 35 minutes left on your timer. Try to time it so you are out of warrior pellets at 35 minutes left. Mix the rest of the hops together in a bowl. When you have 35 minutes left, start adding those hops just a few at a time, trying to end with the last of them when your timer hits 0 and you turn the flame off. Chill the wort rapidly, add to your fermenter, and top up to 5 gallons with cool water. Check the temperature to ensure it is around 70 degrees, and pitch a neutral yeast like American ale yeast (1056), or dry yeast like nottingham or safale s05. Ferment until completely done, and then allow to rest. Two weeks is pretty good. Then, rack to a clean 5 gallon carboy and dry hop with the dryhopping hops. You can either just put them into the fermenter and rack onto them, or use a hops bag if you=d like. Just don=t pack them tightly, you want the beer to be in contact with the hops. Use two or three bags if you need them. After about a week, you can rack to a bottling bucket avoiding the hops chunks, and bottle. Prime as usual, with approx. 3.5- 4 ounces priming sugar for 5 gallons of beer. You may have less than 5 gallons, due to the hops sucking up some of the beer, that=s why 3.5-4 ounces is a good bet.

 

[bondra76]

I've been brewing for about a year and I think I'm in the same spot. I've never used kits though.

Whether you use the kits or some recipe that someone gave to you, it's all the same. You're just grinding your grains instead of buying them from someone else who did the same work.

I'm at the point in my beer brewing now where I hear all these people say "well, I don't like XYZ yeast, I prefer ABC yeast because of its notes".

This has led me to a unique place in my brewing education that I think you are at too. I want to experiment. I want to try different batches, different grains, different yeasts, etc.. I think I can notice now between really good beers and really bad beers, and I want to make sure I'm hitting the nail on the head with flavor every time. I also would like to actually KNOW what I was tasting, not just because it got 6 good reviews. I also want to learn the differences between the different grains and know whose products I enjoy and whose I don't (it should be noted - when I say "good beer" vs. bad it's all relative. You brew what you enjoy if you're a homebrewer. If you're hosting a party or commercial brew, you're obviously going for what the public wants but I want to brew what I LIKE most of the time, and that should be important!)

Anyways...enough rambling...here is where I am at - Since it's winter, I am buying a lot of those 1 gallon cider jars you find at the grocery store. As I am brewing I am trying to split my 5 gallon batches into smaller ones. Pitching different yeasts in different jars. Maybe only making 2-3 gallon batches at a time. Just whatever I feel like doing.

Maybe you're at the same place I am - I rushed into the hobby and skipped bottling and went straight to kegging. I have 4 taps and a considerably larger scale operation going on than my friends as far as volume of beer goes. But I am realizing I need to take a step back now and figure out (via small batches) what is going to make my beer special. Lots of experimentation to ensue!

 

[richm20]

I cant count the number of kits Ive brewed. Ive even modified kits with extracts, coffee, lactose.....with success.

First I would like to get away from using extract. Not because I feel it will make a better beer, but because I want to have more of a hand in by beer. Why have someone else do it, when I can do it myself.

I dont know where to source something like "Pale Liquid Extract (8.0 SRM) Extract 90.83 %" And thats why I turned to the forum. (I want to do all grain but its an example)

We can argue about what I meant by "take it up a notch" but the wording is irrelevant. I never said I wanted to change the recipe although you alluded to that as if I did.
Yopper, its hard to tell inflection and intent over the web so I will assume you are trying to help, not argue. That said, you quoted me where I stated that I " dont know how I should go about picking the proper extract, hops, sugar....." yet you didnt help me answer that question, you simply told me that I should follow the recipe.
I used the DFH recipe as an example, its something I would like to brew, and im just fine with brewing it as is for now although in the future I may want to change it a bit. BEFORE i can even consider following the recipe I need to know where to turn to buy the proper grains, hops, etc.

 

[Yooper]

I used the DFH recipe as an example, its something I would like to brew, and im just fine with brewing it as is for now although in the future I may want to change it a bit. BEFORE i can even consider following the recipe I need to know where to turn to buy the proper grains, hops, etc.

If you walked into any homebrew store, or contacted any online store, and said "I need to buy 9.5 pounds of pale extract LME " or or "I need 1 oz simcoe", etc- they would be able to give you exactly what you need. That is what it is called. It's not like it's called anything different in different places- those are standard terms. You can also call it by percentages, and say, "9.5 pounds of LME which is 90.83% of the grainbill" and they'd get that as well. Nothing unusual at all about those terms, and you should easily have any homebrew store or online store be able to fill that recipe. That's why it's written that way, and also with complete instructions.

I AM trying to be helpful, and I hope you can see that. You're right that it's impossible to read tone and see facial expressions on the internet, but it definitely is my intent to be helpful and encourage you to make a great beer.

 

[ericbw]

Wow, I think no one got what the original question was. You're asking where to get ingredients? Or what they mean?

There are some differences - fit instance if a recipe calls for "pale LME," and your store only has Briess... Or if your store sells cara-8 but no carapils. Or picking between different roast barley choices that are darker or lighter.

But you'll figure those things out as you go, as long as you pay attention, read things, ask questions, etc.

But it CAN be a little overwhelming to try to buy ingredients when you don't know exactly what you're looking at.

What exactly is your question, though?

 

[ericbw]

Also, Yooper, while that is a good recipe and very detailed instructions, this could be confusing for a noob:



"Hops were added as continuous first warrior for the first 25 minutes ( approximately half at 60 minutes, then a little bit at a time until 35 minutes was left in the boil)."

I read it several times before I thought I understood it. Poorly worded and poorly punctuated.

That can be a lot of info to digest.

 

[magickman03]

Not to step on any toes but what I read in the original post I thought he wanted to move from extract brewing into all grain(brew in a bag) and had used a recipe for extract that he would like to convert. I could be mistaken. If looking to convert recipes there is info at lhbs and in most programs like BeerSmith. I know there is a formula for converting but am on my iPod and haven't looked for it this morning With that said I have a chocolate cherry stout to rack into secondary today!


Sent from my iPod touch using Home Brew

 

[campbellmike]

To make it simple when you visit your home brew store the first time, print or write down the recipe and take it with you. The folks in your store will be familiar with the ingredients and the process. Based on your input as to what you are trying to accomplish they can offer suggestions for modifications and offer alternate ingredients should they not have a specific item. After this initial purchase you will be more comfortable with all of it.

I take a little sticky note with a few scribbles on it with me. I hand it to guy at the counter and a few minutes later he magically hands me a big bag of crushed grain and when needed, some hops and a dry yeast packet. Which, by the way, eventually turns in to tasty nectar.

 

[PackerfaninSanDiego]

So I just finished off a double IPA kit. Looking forward to sipping this one.
I would like to get away from kits and start buying ingredients, this way I can buy in bulk, learn what I like, change things up a bit if I wish.
Here is the problem, I'm a noob and don't have a clue. I see a DFH 60 min. clone recipe in the recipe section but dont know how I should go about picking the proper extract, hops, sugar..... You know the deal.

Thanks

print out the recipe yooper posted for you. Now do the same for the following directions for BIAB.

This is by no means a definitive guide, but its a start. This is not my info, but gleened from the interwebs.



Steps for BIAB

1. Prepare equipment
2. Heat water
3. Mash-in
4. Mash-out
5. Lift, drain, squeeze grains
6. Measure results (pre-boil) using hydrometer or refractometer
7. Boil
8. Cool
9. Measure results (post-boil) using hydrometer or refractometer
10. Transfer, aerate, pitch yeast, ferment


STEP 1: Prepare equipment

• Check valves on brew kettle, are they closed? Are all bits and pieces in place and watertight?

• Add False Bottom (a stainless spaghetti strainer upside down works)

STEP 2: Heat water

Mash temperature is usually somewhere around 152-degrees F.

Strike temperature is somewhere around 160-degrees F.

• Add 7.5 gallons of water to boil kettle (depending on grain bill and boil time this amount might need to change) and heat to the required strike temperature

• While heating the water, lower mesh bag into the water

STEP 3: Mash-in

• Once you have reached your target strike temperature, turn off the heat and slowly add your grains while stirring the mash. If possible have someone help with this so one can pour grains while the other stirs. Stir well so there are no grain balls or clumps.

• Once all the grain has been added and stirred, you should be at or near the required mash temperature.

• If your mash temperature is too high, add cold water to lower the temperature. If it's too low, add hot water or heat to raise the temperature. It may take some practice to hit your mash temperature and hold it. This can change based on many factors such as the weather, your equipment, etc.

• The long stemmed thermometer will allow you to monitor the temperature inside the mash. Short stemmed thermometers will only give you a temperature reading for the top of the grain bed and this could cause problems since the top can be much cooler than the bottom or center of the mash.

• Cover the kettle and monitor with your thermometer and maintain the required mash temperature.

• Once the mash is completed remove cover and stir gently.

STEP 4: Mash-out

The mash-out step is important when doing no-sparge BIAB since it will help improve brewhouse efficiency and it also makes the grain bed more fluid which helps when draining the grains in the following steps.

• Fire up the burner and stir the mash while bringing the temperature up to the required mash-out temperature of 170-degrees F.

• Once mash reaches 170-degrees, cut the heat again and let sit at 170-degrees for 10-minutes.

• After 10-minutes at 170-degrees, mash-out is complete.

STEP 5: Lift, Drain, Squeeze Grains

• Tie a knot in the top of the grain bag. Attach your rope to the grain bag and slowly lift the grain bag from the kettle and secure rope so that it allows the bag to hang directly above the kettle while draining.

• Twist the grain bag a squeeze out as much wort as possible.

STEP 6: Measure results

Taking a gravity reading at this point will allow you to determine your brewhouse efficiency.

• Take a pre-boil specific gravity measurement using a hydrometer or refractometer.

• Record how much wort you collected in your kettle.

Use this calculator to determine efficiency:

http://www.brewersfriend.com/brewhouse-efficiency/

STEP 7: Boil

• Now you continue on with the boiling process just as you would for an extract or all-grain batch.

• Use the rope again to hang a small mesh bag to hold any hops or spices. Placing these ingredients inside a mesh bag helps keep it out of your fermentor at the end of the boil.

STEP 8: Cool

• Use an immersion chiller to quickly lower the temperature of the wort to yeast pitching temperature.

STEP 9: Measure results

• Take a post-boil hydrometer reading to determine your original gravity (OG) for this batch.

STEP 10: Transfer, Aerate, Pitch, Ferment

• Transfer wort to fermentor.

• Aerate wort. gently rock the fermentor to splash wort for a few minutes.

• Pitch yeast and ferment.

 

[richm20]

So, I came up with a recipe for a breakfast stout. I'm out of room so I can't make it just yet (got 25 gallons in various stages and only 20 gallons of keg space) Where could I post something like this for forum members to pick apart and offer help?