I am brewing a large OG brew ... 1.108. I am referencing a pitching rate table in my john palmer book and looks like I will need 350-400+ billion cells to pitch. I was looking to do a 2L starter using a smackpack, but looks like the max output would be only 225 billion cells? How do I get up to the 350-400 range? Do I need to get a 5L flask to make starters for these very high OG brews? I want to make sure I do not underpitch and want to hit my FG.
Need 350+ Million Cells - Help!
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sandyeggoxj
Well-Known Member
I'm assuming you actually mean billion and not million.
Anyway, You can do multiple steps. So do a 2l starter, crash, decant and fill it up with 2l more wort and ferment that out. Some of the pitching rate calculators can help you do multiple steps. 350 should be attainable.
For a beer that big I would pitch at 1.25 mil cells/ml/ºP. Aerate well at pitch and then again 12-24 hours later. Good luck!
Anyway, You can do multiple steps. So do a 2l starter, crash, decant and fill it up with 2l more wort and ferment that out. Some of the pitching rate calculators can help you do multiple steps. 350 should be attainable.
For a beer that big I would pitch at 1.25 mil cells/ml/ºP. Aerate well at pitch and then again 12-24 hours later. Good luck!
Yes -- billion -- sorry for the confusion, and thanks for the help! This is my first high OG beer, and also first attempt at a yeast starter so I want to make sure I am doing things properly, and fully understand the reasoning.
I was originally going to purchase a flask to make my starter, but may not do so for now, since I need to make a 2-Step -- seems it takes a lot of the benefit I was looking to gain (one vessel start to finish) away.
Here is what I am looking to do:
Make 2L starter in pot on stove
Cool in Ice bath and transfer to sanitized growler
Pitch smack pack of yeast, and cover with aluminum foil
After 24-36 hours, make a 1.5L starter on stove
Crash and Decant growler
Cool in Ice bath and transfer to sanitized growler which contains yeast from my first starter -- dumping new wort on top of existing yeast cake, which is cool from being stored in refrigerator since it was just crashed
Wait another 24-26 hours, crash, decant, and then pitch to my 1.108 OG brew
Does this all sound correct? Sandy -- I tried to come up with a cell count needed based on your function, and came up with 600 Billion,but the yeast calculator I used came up with 379 billion needed. How did you come up with your suggested function?
Thanks all for the help (And sorry for all the elementary questions!).
I was originally going to purchase a flask to make my starter, but may not do so for now, since I need to make a 2-Step -- seems it takes a lot of the benefit I was looking to gain (one vessel start to finish) away.
Here is what I am looking to do:
Make 2L starter in pot on stove
Cool in Ice bath and transfer to sanitized growler
Pitch smack pack of yeast, and cover with aluminum foil
After 24-36 hours, make a 1.5L starter on stove
Crash and Decant growler
Cool in Ice bath and transfer to sanitized growler which contains yeast from my first starter -- dumping new wort on top of existing yeast cake, which is cool from being stored in refrigerator since it was just crashed
Wait another 24-26 hours, crash, decant, and then pitch to my 1.108 OG brew
Does this all sound correct? Sandy -- I tried to come up with a cell count needed based on your function, and came up with 600 Billion,but the yeast calculator I used came up with 379 billion needed. How did you come up with your suggested function?
Thanks all for the help (And sorry for all the elementary questions!).
sandyeggoxj
Well-Known Member
600 bil doesn't sound wrong. Different schools of thought on pitching rates. Most ales do well with .75mil/ml/ºp up to about 1.070ish.
Do you have a stir plate? You don't need one but if you don't have one then you'll need to wait longer. Stir plates just propagate yeast faster. You will still end up with a similar cell count. Also, keep you starter warm. In the 80's is good. You are dumping the "beer" that is produced so flavor doesn't matter. The yeast will like it more and will work faster.
For cooling the hot wort I just leave it on the stove overnight and pitch in the morning. If it is covered and sealed up you'll be fine. Everything was steam sanitized so it is a good environment.
Do you have a stir plate? You don't need one but if you don't have one then you'll need to wait longer. Stir plates just propagate yeast faster. You will still end up with a similar cell count. Also, keep you starter warm. In the 80's is good. You are dumping the "beer" that is produced so flavor doesn't matter. The yeast will like it more and will work faster.
For cooling the hot wort I just leave it on the stove overnight and pitch in the morning. If it is covered and sealed up you'll be fine. Everything was steam sanitized so it is a good environment.
Just make a small batch of a lightly flavored beer (not lots of hops, etc.) then use that yeast. In essence, a huge starter- you just get to drink the results.
sandyeggoxj
Well-Known Member
This!
A great alternative. I do this with session beers and imperials. Works great. Plus I don't have to clean the fermenter again. HAHA!
I agree with Sandy, 0.75 is really a pitch rate for lower gravity ales, not for a beer this big.
I made my barleywine last year (OG 1.103) using the yeast cake off of a lightly hopped pale ale. the yeast tore through the well aerated wort in 2 weeks. It was a good barleywine within 2 months.
I made my barleywine last year (OG 1.103) using the yeast cake off of a lightly hopped pale ale. the yeast tore through the well aerated wort in 2 weeks. It was a good barleywine within 2 months.
Get a 5L flask. It will serve you well for these situations.
Money well spent IMO.
- Big ales
- Lagers
- Overbuilding starters for future yeast harvest.
- 10 gallon batches
Money well spent IMO.
This is a very good method to grow a ton of yeast and get a session beer out of it. Should be ready to rack off in a week (2 tops). You can always dry-hop that small beer later.
BTW, you are using a high gravity yeast, right? Which one?
Island ... not sure if this question was for me, but I was going to use Wyeast 1056 ... is this a high gravity yeast?
So I am going to go with a 2 step starter to get to my 6billion cell count using a 5L flask. If I boil my wort in a bot on the stove, can i pour the cooled wort from step 2 on top of the decanted yeast (in my flask) from step one? it is backwards from a typical brew -- is there any difference?
So I am going to go with a 2 step starter to get to my 6billion cell count using a 5L flask. If I boil my wort in a bot on the stove, can i pour the cooled wort from step 2 on top of the decanted yeast (in my flask) from step one? it is backwards from a typical brew -- is there any difference?
flars
Well-Known Member
That is exactly what you do. Use caution though. It is best to have the yeast, that was cold crashed to settle the yeast and then decant the spent wort, within 10°F of the cooled, step 2, wort you will be adding. Not causing thermal shock to the yeast will reduce lag time in the starter.
Or you could save yourself a lot of hassle and use S-05. It's the same yeast in dry form. Here is a good link exploring some theorized taste differences between beers made with the Chico strain in both dry and liquid form.
Just rehydrate a couple of packs of S-05 and you should have plenty of healthy yeast in your target pitch rate. Saving yourself some cash and a lot of extra unneeded work in the process.
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sandyeggoxj
Well-Known Member
Us05 might save some work but the experience you gain by building starters and targeting pitch rates is invaluable in my opinion.
I totally agree @sandyeggoxj, that making starters is a great addition to a brewer's tool box but just don't see the point when a cheaper, identical, equally effective product exists. Knowing how to make a starter is important. I believe there was a decent article on this topic recently.
I make starters for all brews in which I use liquid yeast. I generally make big ones, (a relative term I guess).
For one of my first few batches I made a starter for Wyeast 1056 and subsequently discovered it was the same as US-05. A waste of time IMO. If an identical dry equivalent exists for a strain I want to use I use it.
For the majority of brews, I use strains only available as liquid. I reckon starters in an appropriate size are a must for lots of reasons.
I make starters for all brews in which I use liquid yeast. I generally make big ones, (a relative term I guess).
For one of my first few batches I made a starter for Wyeast 1056 and subsequently discovered it was the same as US-05. A waste of time IMO. If an identical dry equivalent exists for a strain I want to use I use it.
For the majority of brews, I use strains only available as liquid. I reckon starters in an appropriate size are a must for lots of reasons.
Yes, that Q was directed to you
I agree with the others to use the similar/same dry US-05 instead. Yes, it is valuable to learn how to make starters, but starting (pun intended) with a 1.100 beer is not a good choice, given the viable alternative.
US-05 (and 1056) is alcohol tolerant to 12% perhaps a tad higher (~14%) if carefully coaxed.
There's another issue not mentioned before.
You will need to oxygenate that HG wort very well before pitching or it may never finish, stalling out prematurely. Resurrection efforts will be tasking, and chances are they may not work at all, leaving you with a very sweet beer at best, or a ruined one at worst.
Oxygenating 12-18 hours after pitching is also advocated by some with extremely big beers like this.
This is an extremely difficult beer to make well I reckon. I've never attempted anything close to this high and OG. It's big Barleywine or Russian Imperial Stout territory. It's going to take months to condition prior to drinking. I just don't have the patience for some thing this big and difficult to brew that if not done to a high standard is highly likely to end too sweet.
That is probably more a reflection on my skill set than the OP's. Hopefully they know what they are getting into.
This is an extremely difficult beer to make well I reckon. I've never attempted anything close to this high and OG. It's big Barleywine or Russian Imperial Stout territory. It's going to take months to condition prior to drinking. I just don't have the patience for some thing this big and difficult to brew that if not done to a high standard is highly likely to end too sweet.
That is probably more a reflection on my skill set than the OP's. Hopefully they know what they are getting into.
I found that if you pitch a lot of healthy yeast (such as the cake from a previous batch), the beer doesn't require a lot of aging. If you want sponge oxygenation, then aging in a bucket isn't a bad option, but a clean barleywine can be ready in 2-3 months.
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