Natural carbination in Corny

[robertbartsch]

My kegerator holds only two cornies and I have been using forced carbination with the CO2 tank.

Recently, I purchased a few extra kegs and I want to use them for beer storage and conditioning. Since I only have room for two cold kegs, I was planning to use the newly acquired extra kegs to carbonate the beers I have already fermented but, for which I do not have room in the fridge.

Are there any special considerations for carbing in a corny keg?


* I was planning to boil some water, add the priming sugar and dump it in the tank
* Then add the fermented beer and seal the keg with some C02.
* Store the beer keg in the basement at room temp - about 68-72F for 2-3 weeks.

After the second fermenting is complete and the beer has some age, I can put it in the fridge and drink it; right?

Thx...

 

[DustinHickey]

I have exact same problem and set up. There are a few I can think of.

The biggest issue is how much sugar to add. Some people say use half the amount you would normally use. Some people say use the same amount. I could not decide which one to try so I went with half and figured I would wrather be under then over. It turned out a bit under carbed so next time I am going to try to use 75% of what I would normally use.

Also, when your going to store your kegs you should pressurize them and purge the oxygen out of the head space with the releif valve, then leave enough co2 pressure in there to make sure you have a good seal.

Aside from that the only other item is that you may get some yeast in the first few pints but I havent had any problems there yet and if I do it just means I have to drink the first few before getting to the clear stuff.

 

[Yooper]

I use 1/2 the "normal" amount. It works great.

I've done exactly what you're proposing, and it is a great way to keep beer in the pipeline and ready to tap! I like to move it to the kegerator and let it chill and sit for 24 hours before tapping, so that the yeast sediment can fall out again after being moved and it gets cold. Then, I just pull off about 3 ounces and dump it (yeast sludge) and the rest is all carbonated, cold beer!

 

[robertbartsch]

Thx.

How do I purge the non C02 gas out of the headspace in the keg? There is a releif valve in the removable top for each keg but I thought that these were for safety.

 

[Shooter]

Thx.

How do I purge the non C02 gas out of the headspace in the keg? There is a releif valve in the removable top for each keg but I thought that these were for safety.

Use the relief valve.

 

[Shooter]

I also use 1/2 the amount of sugar. I always pull the first pint and dump to clear some of the yeast. There will still be a little bit of yeast for a couple more pints. It can sometimes lend a slight flavor to the beer, but it's nothing to worry about and it clears after three or four pints normally.

That being said, I have a keg of mild, more of an imperial mild due to some issues, that has a sulfury quality to it. I used to get this problem with beers that fermented too warm. Since I've had temp control it hasn't been an issue. The beer tasted fine going into the keg. However, the first few pints of this beer had this taste/smell. It has cleared a little as I've cleared the yeast through drinking a couple of pints, but I'm not convinced it isn't a result of the fermentation that happened during carbonation. It was pretty hot in my place when this was carbing, didn't even think about this being a problem for carbonation purposes, but, I'm going to try to avoid carb temps that are too high in the future.

 

[Walker]

Use the relief valve.

It depends on what kind of valve it is. Some of them don't have a manual way to release the pressure and look like this. These are emergency release valves only.

For those kinds, you have to disconnect the GAS line and press the center of the poppet down with something to vent the gas.

MAKE SURE YOU USE THE GAS POST. If you use the liquid one, you and everything near by will be taking a shower in beer.

 

[Shooter]

It depends on what kind of valve it is. Some of them don't have a manual way to release the pressure and look like this. These are emergency release valves only.

For those kinds, you have to disconnect the GAS line and press the center of the poppet down with something to vent the gas.

MAKE SURE YOU USE THE GAS POST. If you use the liquid one, you and everything near by will be taking a shower in beer.

Good point, if you have that kind use the gas post, as Walker states, do NOT use the liquid post...trust me.

 

[Yooper]

Good point, if you have that kind use the gas post, as Walker states, do NOT use the liquid post...trust me.

Yes.

And for us slow learners, who learn by doing, let me just mention that beer under pressure can shoot farther than you can even imagine possible. Sticky floors are bad enough, but sticky ceilings are even worse. A real kegger has mopped his/her ceiling at least once.

 

[Mateo]

Reading your post I was curious why you don't use speise to prime?

What do you do with the hot break material in the bottom of your kettle?

I take the spent hops and hot break material and strain it through a fine cotton cloth into a smaller pot and reboil it after I am done brewing then I can it and boil it again real quick. I use 1 quart to a keg.

If you end up with nothing then just add a little extra to your recipe. Not questioning your methods, just curious. To me it seems expensive to buy extra sugar to prime.

 

[Yooper]

Reading your post I was curious why you don't use speise to prime?

What do you do with the hot break material in the bottom of your kettle?

I take the spent hops and hot break material and strain it through a fine cotton cloth into a smaller pot and reboil it after I am done brewing then I can it and boil it again real quick. I use 1 quart to a keg.

If you end up with nothing then just add a little extra to your recipe. Not questioning your methods, just curious. To me it seems expensive to buy extra sugar to prime.

Corn sugar is about $.99/pound, and you need 2.5 ounces to carbonate a keg. Definitely not expensive, and far less of a PITA than to do krausening or using speise. With speise, you may not be 100% sure of the amount of fermentables in that "quart", but with 2.5 ounces of corn sugar, you know exactly how much fermentables you're adding.

 

[Mateo]

Good points, do you throw out your hot break with the wort?

m.

 

[Yooper]

Good points, do you throw out your hot break with the wort?

m.

In my case, much of the hot break makes it through my CFC so some of it goes into the fermenter with the cold break, too. Hops debis and some hot break is stopped by the whirlpool, but certainly not all of it. I have very little wort left after my transfer to the fermenter- maybe a few ounces. I have some hop debris, hot break, and a tiny bit of wort in the kettle when I'm done. I'm sure others do it differently, though.

 

[rcrabb22]

I have just started conditioning in cornies, 3 so far and didn't know to use 1/2 the amount of corn sugar. The first keg I have tapped and seems ok, not over or under carbed.

Why 1/2 the amount if conditioning in a keg?

 

[Yooper]

I have just started conditioning in cornies, 3 so far and didn't know to use 1/2 the amount of corn sugar. The first keg I have tapped and seems ok, not over or under carbed.

Why 1/2 the amount if conditioning in a keg?

Oh, no science! It just has to do with the amount of beer and headspace. There is more beer with less headspace, or some such reason, as compared to bottles.

More won't hurt, but it could be a little overcarbed. That's easily fixed, just by purging the keg if it is overcarbed.

 

[Walker]

Oh, no science! It just has to do with the amount of beer and headspace. There is more beer with less headspace, or some such reason, as compared to bottles.

Right.

What happens when you prime beer and bottle it is that the yeast starts to ferment the new sugar you added. This causes more CO2 to be produced and the pressure in the head space of the bottle starts to increase.

The system reaches an equilibrium point where the pressure in the head space causes further CO2 being produced to stay in solution in the beer.

A 12 oz bottle of beer will have about 1 oz worth of headspace. So, 1/13th of the volume of the container is head space.

A 5 gallon cornie will have... what?.... 16 to 32 oz of headspace? (just guessing) At anyrate... the headspace makes up a MUCH smaller proportion of the full container. Because f this, it doesn't take as much CO2 to get that smaller headspace pressurized to the point where additional CO2 stays in the beer.

 

[DustinHickey]

Reading your post I was curious why you don't use speise to prime?

What do you do with the hot break material in the bottom of your kettle?

I take the spent hops and hot break material and strain it through a fine cotton cloth into a smaller pot and reboil it after I am done brewing then I can it and boil it again real quick. I use 1 quart to a keg.

If you end up with nothing then just add a little extra to your recipe. Not questioning your methods, just curious. To me it seems expensive to buy extra sugar to prime.

To me it sounds like a lot of work described above just to prime. You can buy corn or dextrin sugar for cheap in the supermarket. Don't get me wrong, to each his own, I just cant imagine doing all that unless it benefits the taste of the beer.

 

[Mateo]

I do it for a few reasons. The foremost is using the speise to cultivate yeast. I know that seems like a lot of work too. I only buy yeast if I want a new strain. I need the speise to culture up starters so I always have some around from previous batches. Why not use it.

 

[DustinHickey]

Right.

What happens when you prime beer and bottle it is that the yeast starts to ferment the new sugar you added. This causes more CO2 to be produced and the pressure in the head space of the bottle starts to increase.

The system reaches an equilibrium point where the pressure in the head space causes further CO2 being produced to stay in solution in the beer.

A 12 oz bottle of beer will have about 1 oz worth of headspace. So, 1/13th of the volume of the container is head space.

A 5 gallon cornie will have... what?.... 16 to 32 oz of headspace? (just guessing) At anyrate... the headspace makes up a MUCH smaller proportion of the full container. Because f this, it doesn't take as much CO2 to get that smaller headspace pressurized to the point where additional CO2 stays in the beer.

See this is something I don't understand. I used the 1/2 method and ended up undercarbed. Other people say it works for them.. Still a mystery because there has yet to be a formula developed that works.

I also don't agree because pressure is pressure... Is it not? If you seal your keg with 5 PSI, the amount of headspace in the keg no longer matters because you technically just filled it with pressure.... The only thing that matters from here on out is how much CO2 is generated by the yeast to increase the already established 5PSI. The only variable here at this point is the amount of sugar present in the beer that the yeast have to eat.

That being said, the volume of the beer, the headspace, ect.. do not effect the co2 level anymore. Its just the amount of sugar. Atleast thats the only logical way Ive been able to think of it. I can be wrong and If I am I would love to know why.

The only reason I can think to use a little bit less sugar than in a bottle is because you are starting with a container under 5 pounds of pressure as opposed to a bottle at atmospheric pressure.

So, the only way I can see to do this is to figure out how much sugar it takes to create 5 PSI in the headspace of a 12 oz beer bottle from atmospheric pressure, multiply that amount by 53.3 bottles (or 5 gallons). and subtract that amount of sugar from the sugar normally required for a normal 5 gallon batch of beer in bottles for a desired co2 level.

Am I right? Whose going to start the experiment by trying to produce exactly 5 PSI in a bottle of beer?

-Dustin Hickey

 

[Shooter]

Am I right? Whose going to start the experiment by trying to produce exactly 5 PSI in a bottle of beer?

-Dustin Hickey

I nominate Dustin Hickey.

 

[DustinHickey]

I do it for a few reasons. The foremost is using the speise to cultivate yeast. I know that seems like a lot of work too. I only buy yeast if I want a new strain. I need the speise to culture up starters so I always have some around from previous batches. Why not use it.

Thats another story. I have to admit I'm the lazy type. I buy new WL yeast whenever I brew.

 

[Yooper]

See this is something I don't understand. I used the 1/2 method and ended up undercarbed. Other people say it works for them.. Still a mystery because there has yet to be a formula developed that works.

I also don't agree because pressure is pressure... Is it not? If you seal your keg with 5 PSI, the amount of headspace in the keg no longer matters because you technically just filled it with pressure.... The only thing that matters from here on out is how much CO2 is generated by the yeast to increase the already established 5PSI. The only variable here at this point is the amount of sugar present in the beer that the yeast have to eat.

That being said, the volume of the beer, the headspace, ect.. do not effect the co2 level anymore. Its just the amount of sugar. Atleast thats the only logical way Ive been able to think of it. I can be wrong and If I am I would love to know why.

The only reason I can think to use a little bit less sugar than in a bottle is because you are starting with a container under 5 pounds of pressure as opposed to a bottle at atmospheric pressure.

So, the only way I can see to do this is to figure out how much sugar it takes to create 5 PSI in the headspace of a 12 oz beer bottle from atmospheric pressure, multiply that amount by 53.3 bottles (or 5 gallons). and subtract that amount of sugar from the sugar normally required for a normal 5 gallon batch of beer in bottles for a desired co2 level.

Am I right? Whose going to start the experiment by trying to produce exactly 5 PSI in a bottle of beer?

-Dustin Hickey

It doesn't have anything to do with whether you seat the lid with 0 co2, or 30 psi of co2. It has to do with amount of headspace. Once the headspace is "full", it'll start to dissolve in the beer. It's just the laws of physics.

If your beer was undercarbed, maybe you had a leak? Or maybe you didn't wait 3 weeks at 70 degrees + ?

 

[DustinHickey]

It doesn't have anything to do with whether you seat the lid with 0 co2, or 30 psi of co2. It has to do with amount of headspace. Once the headspace is "full", it'll start to dissolve in the beer. It's just the laws of physics.

If your beer was undercarbed, maybe you had a leak? Or maybe you didn't wait 3 weeks at 70 degrees + ?

Yes but what determines Full?

Full = Maximum PSI at a certain temp. If you have 30 PSI as opposed to 5 in the keg, the same amount of sugar added will produce different results because the 30 PSI keg will "fill up" first and you will end up with more co2 desolved in the beer.

The proper calculation should be as follows:

Amount of sugar for keggins = Standard sugar used to create desired PSI - (Amount of sugar required to produce 5 PSI in a 12 oz bottle x 53.3)

That is of course if you are sealing your keg with 5 PSI

 

[Walker]

It doesn't have anything to do with whether you seat the lid with 0 co2, or 30 psi of co2. It has to do with amount of headspace. Once the headspace is "full", it'll start to dissolve in the beer. It's just the laws of physics.

No.. it absolutely has to do with the pressure in the head space, and that might be why no formula has worked, because people aren't saying how many PSI they seal the keg with.

It's high pressure in the headspace that prevents CO2 from escaping the beer. If you seal a bottle, there is just atmospheric pressure. CO2 will escape, causing that presure to increase and then CO2 will be kept in solution.

Kegs have less head space to start with, so even if you seal the keg with 0psi, you need less sugar.

If you seal with 10 psi, you will need even less sugar.

If you seal with 30 psi, you will need even less sugar.

The carb tables show that a "typical" beer at room temp needs 30psi to get the desired level of CO2 in the beer. So, just think about it that way.

Bottles need to build up 30psi in the head to get the rest of the CO2 to stay in solution in the beer.

Kegs sealed at 10 psi will need to build up to 30 psi to get the beer carbed.

Kegs sealed at 30 psi will not need to build up pressure to get the beer carbed.

Then again, when you pressurize a keg to seal it, CO2 does start to get forced into the beer, so there is some error to account for.


I'm rambling, but I use 3 oz of corn sugar and 20 psi to seal. works for me.

 

[SumnerH]

I do it for a few reasons. The foremost is using the speise to cultivate yeast. I know that seems like a lot of work too. I only buy yeast if I want a new strain. I need the speise to culture up starters so I always have some around from previous batches. Why not use it.

Lots of us wash the yeast cake from the primary to reuse yeast. If you want to compare approaches, https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f163/yeast-washing-illustrated-41768/ has a common one, and for those who want long-term frozen yeast banks there's https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f13/guide-making-frozen-yeast-bank-35891/

 

[DustinHickey]

No.. it absolutely has to do with the pressure in the head space, and that might be why no formula has worked, because people aren't saying how many PSI they seal the keg with.

It's high pressure in the headspace that prevents CO2 from escaping the beer. If you seal a bottle, there is just atmospheric pressure. CO2 will escape, causing that presure to increase and then CO2 will be kept in solution.

Kegs have less head space to start with, so even if you seal the keg with 0psi, you need less sugar.

If you seal with 10 psi, you will need even less sugar.

If you seal with 30 psi, you will need even less sugar.

The carb tables show that a "typical" beer at room temp needs 30psi to get the desired level of CO2 in the beer. So, just think about it that way.

Bottles need to build up 30psi in the head to get the rest of the CO2 to stay in solution in the beer.

Kegs sealed at 10 psi will need to build up to 30 psi to get the beer carbed.

Kegs sealed at 30 psi will not need to build up pressure to get the beer carbed.

Then again, when you pressurize a keg to seal it, CO2 does start to get forced into the beer, so there is some error to account for.


I'm rambling, but I use 3 oz of corn sugar and 20 psi to seal. works for me.

I agree except for that fact that using 1/2 the aount of sugar would mean that it has 1/2 the amount of headspace and that once you seal the keg with pressure, as most people do, then the headspace no longer matters. I think I have this figured out.

In other words the calculation should be as follows for 5 gallons of beer in a keg:

S = priming sugar amount based on desired Volumes in keg.
B = priming sugar amount normally used for desired volumes in bottles
V = Amount of sugar used to produce the pressure you seal your keg with in a 12 oz bottle of beer.

S = B - ( V x 53.3 )

The main problem is figuring out what value to use for V.... For me v would be the amount of sugar to create 5 PSI.

 

[Walker]

I agree except for that fact that using 1/2 the aount of sugar would mean that it has 1/2 the amount of headspace and that once you seal the keg with pressure, as most people do, then the headspace no longer matters. I think I have this figured out.

Well... back of the envelop calculation:

1/13th of a beer bottle is head space. That's 7.6% of the total volume of the container.

Guestimating that there is 32oz of head space in a 5 gallon keg means that 4.7% of the keg is head space.

So, compared to a bottle, a keg has about 40% less headspace by volume. Assuming my 32oz out-of-my-butt number is accurate.

If the amount is closer to 16oz, then the keg has 2.4% head space... 70% less than a bottle.

So... 50% seems reasonable to assume for the headspace difference.

And, if you seal the keg with less than 30psi, then you still need pressure to build up to get your beer to keep CO2 in solution.

I didn't catch where your "5psi" number is coming from, so I don't follow that part of your comment.

 

[DustinHickey]

Well... back of the envelop calculation:

1/13th of a beer bottle is head space. That's 7.6% of the total volume of the container.

Guestimating that there is 32oz of head space in a 5 gallon keg means that 4.7% of the keg is head space.

So, compared to a bottle, a keg has about 40% less headspace by volume. Assuming my 32oz out-of-my-butt number is accurate.

If the amount is closer to 16oz, then the keg has 2.4% head space... 70% less than a bottle.

So... 50% seems reasonable to assume for the headspace difference.

And, if you seal the keg with less than 30psi, then you still need pressure to build up to get your beer to keep CO2 in solution.

I didn't catch where your "5psi" number is coming from, so I don't follow that part of your comment.

I agree that a batch of bottles has double the percent of headspace but that doesnt mean it has double the volume of headspace. the volume would have to be solved for the whole 5 gallons. For example you would have to figure that in a keg you have 4% of head space and in a 5 gallon batch you have 8% of head space. There is almost no difference in the two.

The 5 PSI number is what I use to seal my 5 gallon cornys.

 

[Walker]

I agree that a batch of bottles has double the percent of headspace but that doesnt mean it has double the volume of headspace. the volume would have to be solved for the whole 5 gallons.

????

5 gallons, divided into in 53 12 oz bottles each with 1 oz of headspace, will see 53 ounces of head space in total.

5 gallons, in one keg, will see about half of this in headspace in total.

So.... I don't understand what you mean by that part in bold.

 

[DustinHickey]

Your right, its half the amount of head space. What I meant to say is it isnt reletaive because the calculation is based on 5 gallons. When you do it based on 5 gallons the head space in the keg is only 4% of the 5 gallons less than it is in the bottles.

You have to calculate for the co2 that gets absorbed into the 5 gallons of beer too. Using half the amount of sugar is only calculating for the volume of the headspace.

For example,

In a keg you have to accomodate for 4% headspace

In 5 gallons of beer you have to accomodate for 8% headspace.

This is a minor difference. Not 50 % different. It is double the volume but only 4% different from the headspace in the keg per 5 gallons.

 

[Walker]

Well.. I believe you are thinking about it wrong, but I am not going to try and convince you.

brew-on. I'm sure you'll get it sorted out.

 

[DustinHickey]

Ok man, just friendly conversation. No hard feelings. I'm at work with nothing to do so I was just enjoying the debate.

Have a good one man.

 

[Walker]

Ok man, just friendly conversation. No hard feelings. I'm at work with nothing to do so I was just enjoying the debate.

Have a good one man.

No, no....

no hard feelings at all. I was just getting a little tired of the debate, to be honest.

Look! Here's some vulgar bananas!

 

[billc68]

I have force carbbed and natural carbbed (using the full amount of sugar) both worked great both had some sediment (natural had a little more of course) but yes, a great way to carb if there is no room in your fridge, plus you can tap that keg almost immediately after placing it in the fridge, as soon as it is cool. I suppose you could tap it warm but yu would get too much fizz.

 

[DustinHickey]

It took me 6 and a half hours of being bored at work for me to enjoy debating about carbonation in a keg for an hour so I get what your saying.

Cheers.