My theory and experience with Biotransformation of dry hops in a NEIPA.

[beervoid]

I don't dry hop during fermentation, but I will dry hop at the tail or end of fermentation. Dry hop amounts vary from 5 to 10 oz hops, depending on the rcipe. I whirlpool at 158F and under with amounts between 5 and 8 oz hops.

I have yet to experience harshness due to amount of hops. I have experienced harshness due to water treatment.

Might I ask what kind of water treatment would cause this harshness?

 

[beervoid]

On the recent CB&B podcast Aslin also noted that they don’t dry hop during fermentation, same with Monkish among others. It’s literally wasting hops.

After negative for diacetyl drop to 50/55/60 (depending on you yeast) with head pressure. Let sit for a day or two. Pull as much yeast as possible. Let climb back up to 60 and dry hop for 3 days between 60 and 65. Add all at once or split it up. Rouse once or twice with Co2. Crash or gradually cool as low as you can. Let sit for a few days. Transfer and carbonate.

Aussie hops are especially high in polyphenol content. The harsh bitterness and chalky taste comes from polyphenols. They generally need more time at lower temps to settle out and your beer will be much much more enjoyable. You can also use a smaller dose of biofine and don’t worry you won’t lose haze.

I add equal amounts of hops to the kettle as I do in the WP and my beers are in no way bitter. Bitterness is perceived at the front of your palate. If you are perceiving harshness at the end of the palate that’s from water/tannins/polyphenols/yeast not from IBUs.

Most of the best commercial examples are dry hopped at rates around 4lbs per barrel. I’ve seen Monkish do a 9lb per barrel DH as well. Some would say over 2lbs per bbl is a waste. I definitely notice a difference between 2 and 4. My 6 gallon batches usually get 10-12 ounces always after fermentation. Less yeast in your beer more aromatics you’ll get. And don’t worry if you use juicy hops you’ll still get juicy flavors even if you don’t add them during fermentation.

I'm inclined to believe the galaxy hops indeed need some more time, all my galaxy beers have always needed more time to settle down.

When you say your 6 gallon batches get 10-12ounces of dry hops, how much is pellet and or cryo?

As you said you put equal dose in the whirlpool do you also add 10-12oz to the whirlpool?
Don't you think adding that much hops in the whirlpool is wasting hops as well?
Wouldn't that be worse then dry hopping during active fermentation?

Cheers!

 

[thehaze]

I've noticed increased harshness when Ca levels were high, along with high levels of Cl. This only happened in beers with increased Cl, but of course was very subjective to my way of adjusting water. At that time, I only used CaCl2 and Epsom. Then I included Gypsum and tried a higher sulfate ratio, which worked better, but the beers were not really hitting that NE feeling.

I asked some brewers how they do it and one was kind enough to reply, saying they too noticed harshness with high Ca levels. They suggested 60-70 ppm Ca, 30 ppm Mg, 50 ppm K, 150-200 Cl, with the sulfate not very far behind, somewhere around 90-100 ppm.

So next time I will try using CaCls, Gypsum, Epsom, NaCl and KCl. I'll see how it goes.

 

[beervoid]

I've noticed increased harshness when Ca levels were high, along with high levels of Cl. This only happened in beers with increased Cl, but of course was very subjective to my way of adjusting water. At that time, I only used CaCl2 and Epsom. Then I included Gypsum and tried a higher sulfate ratio, which worked better, but the beers were not really hitting that NE feeling.

I asked some brewers how they do it and one was kind enough to reply, saying they too noticed harshness with high Ca levels. They suggested 60-70 ppm Ca, 30 ppm Mg, 50 ppm K, 150-200 Cl, with the sulfate not very far behind, somewhere around 90-100 ppm.

So next time I will try using CaCls, Gypsum, Epsom, NaCl and KCl. I'll see how it goes.

Interesting information, thank you for sharing that!
I currently am at 200ppm Chloride and 100ppm Sulfate. I do my additions with calcium chloride and gypsum so my calcium levels are around 150ppm. I've been meaning to replace some calcium chloride with salt to keep the calcium down but have been putting it off since calcium helps to get the PH in the mash down.

 

[thehaze]

To get your pH in range, it's better to use an acid, which I believe is more reliable and relatively, easily predictable. Salts added to the mash can lower pH, but with light coloured beers, salts do not suffice, especially when dropping the pH to 5.2-5.35.

I recently got KCl ( pure ) and will use it to raise Cl, without adding Ca. It will also add some K, and hopefully will not throw unpleasent flavours. My next attempt will be something like 55 ppm Ca, 10 ppm Mg, 35 ppm Na, 80 ppm Sulfate, 140 ppm Cl and whatever K levels there will be after adding KCl.

The brewery I got the reply from, said the Mg and K can add extra body...

 

[Pkrd]

brulosophy is a joke.

Identical twins and their brother walk into a bar...

 

[beervoid]

I've noticed increased harshness when Ca levels were high, along with high levels of Cl. This only happened in beers with increased Cl, but of course was very subjective to my way of adjusting water. At that time, I only used CaCl2 and Epsom. Then I included Gypsum and tried a higher sulfate ratio, which worked better, but the beers were not really hitting that NE feeling.

I asked some brewers how they do it and one was kind enough to reply, saying they too noticed harshness with high Ca levels. They suggested 60-70 ppm Ca, 30 ppm Mg, 50 ppm K, 150-200 Cl, with the sulfate not very far behind, somewhere around 90-100 ppm.

So next time I will try using CaCls, Gypsum, Epsom, NaCl and KCl. I'll see how it goes.

I looked into my notes and did some research it seems higher calcium is favorable for good flocculation and protein break. at least 100ppm in the boil. Take into account alot of calcium gets filtered out during the mash.

I've also found that Monkish answered (in podcast) in regards to their water profile to be most interested in high Calcium.

 

[stz]

Biotransformation is a thing, but if it is beneficial is subjective. My opinion is that it is a waste of dry hops adding them at the start of fermentation under the assumption that biotransformation brings greater benefit than the dry hops would have had they been added later, though if you are in keg within 10-14 days I cannot reliably AB the difference so I try not to let it bother me too much!

I know brewers collecting straight onto their dry hop, using aggressive yeasts at 21-23C for what might as well be a 2 day primary ferment, but allowing 3 days to indicate stable gravity and 'clean up' allowing the tank to build pressure, rousing as much as you dare, dumping the hops and yeast throughout and then chilling and dumping for 3-5 days while force carbing and then package straight off the same tank inside of 10-14 days. For their equipment and process this is probably the best way they can make beer. I can tell the difference if that beer sits in tank for weeks though and for me it isn't a positive one compared to a beer where this was done off of the yeast. Mainly my opinion is because people aim for it, but don't know if the yeast they are using can do it, or really understand what they are trying to achieve and that always annoys me.

There are benefits to hopping during active fermentation, convection mixes them around, warmth helps solubility, fermentation will reduce oxygen pickup, but when I do this I do this as close to the tail end of fermentation as possible to reduce the losses to co2 and limit nucleation. They've got to go in sometime if this is your process! There are benefits to hopping in secondary as well, but if you don't have the tank space and time, ability to control oxygen pickup etc then a secondary is a worse choice.

What I do know is that primary fermentation evolves a lot of co2 and the brewery smells wonderful and that isn't in the beer any more. You can always use more hops though right? I do know that hop oils stick to yeast and that yeast is going down the drain or settling out at the bottom of a keg. I do know I hate yeast bite and consider it a flaw when I encounter it so it has to go down the drain for me. I do know that it seems a waste to dry hop a tank that is going to have 10% run off the bottom later so I try and get that out of the way. I do know that using a lot of dry hops shoots pH up to the point where I can reliably predict final beer pH depending on rate and that good breweries correct for this before package so I try and control for this when 12g/L brings it up to 4.7. I do know hop rockets and cannons exist for a reason, why dissolved oxygen matters for small pack, that cyrohops/oils/extracts exist. Pretty much everything can be deduced from looking at what commercial breweries produce. Think about how you can keep the beer fresh, how you can decrease tank time, remove a processes or get a better result with equipment. Then run it through marketing wonk and consider how the brewers sold the idea to the sales office or owner who then sold it to the retailer who sold it to the customer.

"a small amount of dextrose to lighten the body and allow the hops to really shine!" ( my mash tun is not big enough/I missed my target gravity and needed table sugar) "a limited edition beer featuring fresh fruit in the cask!" (this batch went REALLY wrong and we need to get rid of it) "double dry hopped for an intense hop aroma!" (we dry hop on pitch in primary and later again before transfer or package, or in secondary (we are rich and have lots of tanks), or run it through a hop rocket on the way to conditioning tank (we are REALLY rich)) "drink fresh!" (our oxygen pickup was higher than anticipated) "Bittered with hop extract to reduce vegetative notes then late hopped with massive amounts of citra" (our kettle wasn't built to do hops and we have a separate whirlpool/hop back system and thus our brewery is quite new and we have quite a lot of money)

I'm not a cynic, honestly. One of the joys of home brewing is you can make exactly what you want and your system is relatively cheap and configurable to try out new things and you usually can have the best beer as a goal not the best beer with what I'm using. One of the joys of commercial brewing is commercial pressure, time and the system is expensive and difficult to configure to try new things so you start thinking how can I get more for less, more out of what I've got.

Like I'd love a tank for a 7 day primary fermentation and yeast cropping, 3 day cold crash, a second tank and pressure transfer for dry hopping off the yeast for 5 days with regular rousing, 5 day cold crash, with 2 days of running off and then a third tank for 5 days conditioning, acid treatment and carbonation before packaging. What is that? 3 tanks and 27 days?

Instead it is more like you can do a DDHDIPA you've got two weeks and two tanks.

 

[beervoid]

Biotransformation is a thing, but if it is beneficial is subjective. My opinion is that it is a waste of dry hops adding them at the start of fermentation under the assumption that biotransformation brings greater benefit than the dry hops would have had they been added later, though if you are in keg within 10-14 days I cannot reliably AB the difference so I try not to let it bother me too much!

I know brewers collecting straight onto their dry hop, using aggressive yeasts at 21-23C for what might as well be a 2 day primary ferment, but allowing 3 days to indicate stable gravity and 'clean up' allowing the tank to build pressure, rousing as much as you dare, dumping the hops and yeast throughout and then chilling and dumping for 3-5 days while force carbing and then package straight off the same tank inside of 10-14 days. For their equipment and process this is probably the best way they can make beer. I can tell the difference if that beer sits in tank for weeks though and for me it isn't a positive one compared to a beer where this was done off of the yeast. Mainly my opinion is because people aim for it, but don't know if the yeast they are using can do it, or really understand what they are trying to achieve and that always annoys me.

There are benefits to hopping during active fermentation, convection mixes them around, warmth helps solubility, fermentation will reduce oxygen pickup, but when I do this I do this as close to the tail end of fermentation as possible to reduce the losses to co2 and limit nucleation. They've got to go in sometime if this is your process! There are benefits to hopping in secondary as well, but if you don't have the tank space and time, ability to control oxygen pickup etc then a secondary is a worse choice.

What I do know is that primary fermentation evolves a lot of co2 and the brewery smells wonderful and that isn't in the beer any more. You can always use more hops though right? I do know that hop oils stick to yeast and that yeast is going down the drain or settling out at the bottom of a keg. I do know I hate yeast bite and consider it a flaw when I encounter it so it has to go down the drain for me. I do know that it seems a waste to dry hop a tank that is going to have 10% run off the bottom later so I try and get that out of the way. I do know that using a lot of dry hops shoots pH up to the point where I can reliably predict final beer pH depending on rate and that good breweries correct for this before package so I try and control for this when 12g/L brings it up to 4.7. I do know hop rockets and cannons exist for a reason, why dissolved oxygen matters for small pack, that cyrohops/oils/extracts exist. Pretty much everything can be deduced from looking at what commercial breweries produce. Think about how you can keep the beer fresh, how you can decrease tank time, remove a processes or get a better result with equipment. Then run it through marketing wonk and consider how the brewers sold the idea to the sales office or owner who then sold it to the retailer who sold it to the customer.

"a small amount of dextrose to lighten the body and allow the hops to really shine!" ( my mash tun is not big enough/I missed my target gravity and needed table sugar) "a limited edition beer featuring fresh fruit in the cask!" (this batch went REALLY wrong and we need to get rid of it) "double dry hopped for an intense hop aroma!" (we dry hop on pitch in primary and later again before transfer or package, or in secondary (we are rich and have lots of tanks), or run it through a hop rocket on the way to conditioning tank (we are REALLY rich)) "drink fresh!" (our oxygen pickup was higher than anticipated) "Bittered with hop extract to reduce vegetative notes then late hopped with massive amounts of citra" (our kettle wasn't built to do hops and we have a separate whirlpool/hop back system and thus our brewery is quite new and we have quite a lot of money)

I'm not a cynic, honestly. One of the joys of home brewing is you can make exactly what you want and your system is relatively cheap and configurable to try out new things and you usually can have the best beer as a goal not the best beer with what I'm using. One of the joys of commercial brewing is commercial pressure, time and the system is expensive and difficult to configure to try new things so you start thinking how can I get more for less, more out of what I've got.

Like I'd love a tank for a 7 day primary fermentation and yeast cropping, 3 day cold crash, a second tank and pressure transfer for dry hopping off the yeast for 5 days with regular rousing, 5 day cold crash, with 2 days of running off and then a third tank for 5 days conditioning, acid treatment and carbonation before packaging. What is that? 3 tanks and 27 days?

Instead it is more like you can do a DDHDIPA you've got two weeks and two tanks.

Great story, lots of things to ponder about. Thank you for contributing.
I'm still not convinced to continue experimenting with the bio transformation thing except that there where studies published that showed that geraniol turns into citronell when introduced during fermentation.
I'm hoping to experiment with a chinook dry hopped during and after fermentation beer for this at some point.

May I ask what PH you are shooting for post fermentation before bottling?

 

[stz]

... geraniol turns into citronell when introduced during fermentation.
I'm hoping to experiment ... May I ask what PH you are shooting for post fermentation before bottling?

See if you can get hold of a glycosidic enzyme and take it to an extreme? If you like your beer and believe that you are producing the best beer you can using a process that suits you then there isn't anything to really mess around with, but it is cool to always try to do better if you feel you can so it is worth experimenting if you do the same thing often.

Too many variables for me to say which ones are important? Am I gaining more aroma with biotransformation, but losing more to co2 and oils sticking to the yeast? Am I transforming unstable compounds into more stable ones which mean I have a greater stability over time, but a lower overall intensity for the first few weeks? Am I tasting a preference for slightly staler beer? Am I just accelerating certain oxidative pathways? Allowing yeast to consume oxygen during fermentation after dry hopping rather than introducing oxygen dry hopping post fermentation?

Like I said I can't always tell the difference when the beers are very fresh between different methods and I can't say which one is best. Dry hopping on pitch and fermenting under pressure and packaging with no oxygen ingress still makes hoppy beer. I've tried a glycosidic enzyme a few times and couldn't tell a difference either, you can even try that on packaged beer to be very objective about the supposed positive goals of biotransformation.

I just dry hop when it is most convenient for my process now and let the beer guide further changes. I'm likely to just use more hops rather than chase biotransformation. I seal and ferment under pressure from that point onwards so that is usually 6 points from FG having ditched the trub with the additional benefit of allowing fermentation to hopefully consume any oxygen introduced at that point. 6 points is a good margin in case I miss it overnight. These beers read >30ppb (usually >20ppb) dissolved oxygen on pack if they've been moved. If they are in the same tank it is unreadable.

If I need to harvest yeast things are different. I chill to 16C to crash yeast out. Run it off and then dry hop and rouse over 3 days at 16C then crash. These beers usually have slightly higher oxygen levels. The trick is to purge the head space after opening the vessel as it is usually evolving co2 (especially when the hops hit!) and interaction with the beer is quite slow at lower temperatures. 16C is a compromise between as cold as possible and warm enough to still get good solubility over 3 days. I go colder to drop more yeast and reduce oxygen pick up if I've got more time. These beers read >60ppb on pack on a good day, but have had some shockers 80-110ppb which is why hop cannons exist.

Before I knew what I was doing it was common to find beers at 1,400ppb? Ones with big dry hop regimes that meant they sat around and ones that were moved around a lot were the worst. Fermenting open top traditional cask beer strangely enough only results in about 30-80ppb. The trick there is the beer ferments over 3 days, is sent across still fermenting to a sealed conditioning tank and packaged still evolving protective co2.

Before package. Ideally below 4.4 for stability. Between 3.9-4.1 for a lot of bright hop forward beers. I find a slightly lower pH lifts the flavour. Correct pH aids flocculation (hate yeast in suspension and yeast bite). You won't get the pH that low when doing big dry hops without doing something about it. Also cohumulone is less soluble at lower pH, there will be some precipitation of bittering alpha acids. The beer tastes a lot softer which you build in.

I've had IPA's from others which are flabby oxidised messes full of yeast tasting like they are 105IBU's described as soft juicy NEIPA's. Under a microscope they have 30m+ cells/ml in suspension and test at a pH of 4.9-5.1. Don't do that. You'll also notice that a lot of them move away from large amounts of oat? There a lot of issues with oxidisation and fatty acids, don't want to use more oats that is necessary.

 

[couchsending]

Great story, lots of things to ponder about. Thank you for contributing.
I'm still not convinced to continue experimenting with the bio transformation thing except that there where studies published that showed that geraniol turns into citronell when introduced during fermentation.
I'm hoping to experiment with a chinook dry hopped during and after fermentation beer for this at some point.

May I ask what PH you are shooting for post fermentation before bottling?

Keep in mind those studies are done using lager yeast. There are only cetain yeasts that are capable of it. Also those studies indicated that the biggest transformation happened from oils introduced on the hot side.

 

[couchsending]

I'm inclined to believe the galaxy hops indeed need some more time, all my galaxy beers have always needed more time to settle down.

When you say your 6 gallon batches get 10-12ounces of dry hops, how much is pellet and or cryo?

As you said you put equal dose in the whirlpool do you also add 10-12oz to the whirlpool?
Don't you think adding that much hops in the whirlpool is wasting hops as well?
Wouldn't that be worse then dry hopping during active fermentation?

Cheers!

Yes beers with high quantities of Aussie hops (Vic secret, Galaxy, Enigma, Topaz) either need more time or colder conditioning temps, or some level of fining. They have a much higher polyphenol content than US and NZ hops. Polyphenols = Burn

The statement I made about Whirlpool hops was referring to adding nearly the same amount of hops to the kettle as the whirlpool not whirlpool to DH. In my small 6g batches it’s usually only say 3oz in WP for beers with say 10oz DH addition.

I’m not a big fan of beers with just big WP additions. I think they lack depth and complexity. I’m usually doing a decent 60/20/5 additions as well. Adjusting pH to minimize bittering from the 20/5 additions.

 

[beervoid]

See if you can get hold of a glycosidic enzyme and take it to an extreme? If you like your beer and believe that you are producing the best beer you can using a process that suits you then there isn't anything to really mess around with, but it is cool to always try to do better if you feel you can so it is worth experimenting if you do the same thing often.

Too many variables for me to say which ones are important? Am I gaining more aroma with biotransformation, but losing more to co2 and oils sticking to the yeast? Am I transforming unstable compounds into more stable ones which mean I have a greater stability over time, but a lower overall intensity for the first few weeks? Am I tasting a preference for slightly staler beer? Am I just accelerating certain oxidative pathways? Allowing yeast to consume oxygen during fermentation after dry hopping rather than introducing oxygen dry hopping post fermentation?

Like I said I can't always tell the difference when the beers are very fresh between different methods and I can't say which one is best. Dry hopping on pitch and fermenting under pressure and packaging with no oxygen ingress still makes hoppy beer. I've tried a glycosidic enzyme a few times and couldn't tell a difference either, you can even try that on packaged beer to be very objective about the supposed positive goals of biotransformation.

I just dry hop when it is most convenient for my process now and let the beer guide further changes. I'm likely to just use more hops rather than chase biotransformation. I seal and ferment under pressure from that point onwards so that is usually 6 points from FG having ditched the trub with the additional benefit of allowing fermentation to hopefully consume any oxygen introduced at that point. 6 points is a good margin in case I miss it overnight. These beers read >30ppb (usually >20ppb) dissolved oxygen on pack if they've been moved. If they are in the same tank it is unreadable.

If I need to harvest yeast things are different. I chill to 16C to crash yeast out. Run it off and then dry hop and rouse over 3 days at 16C then crash. These beers usually have slightly higher oxygen levels. The trick is to purge the head space after opening the vessel as it is usually evolving co2 (especially when the hops hit!) and interaction with the beer is quite slow at lower temperatures. 16C is a compromise between as cold as possible and warm enough to still get good solubility over 3 days. I go colder to drop more yeast and reduce oxygen pick up if I've got more time. These beers read >60ppb on pack on a good day, but have had some shockers 80-110ppb which is why hop cannons exist.

Before I knew what I was doing it was common to find beers at 1,400ppb? Ones with big dry hop regimes that meant they sat around and ones that were moved around a lot were the worst. Fermenting open top traditional cask beer strangely enough only results in about 30-80ppb. The trick there is the beer ferments over 3 days, is sent across still fermenting to a sealed conditioning tank and packaged still evolving protective co2.

Before package. Ideally below 4.4 for stability. Between 3.9-4.1 for a lot of bright hop forward beers. I find a slightly lower pH lifts the flavour. Correct pH aids flocculation (hate yeast in suspension and yeast bite). You won't get the pH that low when doing big dry hops without doing something about it. Also cohumulone is less soluble at lower pH, there will be some precipitation of bittering alpha acids. The beer tastes a lot softer which you build in.

I've had IPA's from others which are flabby oxidised messes full of yeast tasting like they are 105IBU's described as soft juicy NEIPA's. Under a microscope they have 30m+ cells/ml in suspension and test at a pH of 4.9-5.1. Don't do that. You'll also notice that a lot of them move away from large amounts of oat? There a lot of issues with oxidisation and fatty acids, don't want to use more oats that is necessary.

Thank you very much for sharing this, my next focus will be on getting the PH right at mash/boil and post fermentation...
I've currently only focused on mash PH.
Could I ask you what kind of PH you aim for in the mash?
I've read the boil will bring PH down by 0.1-0.2 so a mash PH of 5.4 seems about right.

 

[beervoid]

Yes beers with high quantities of Aussie hops (Vic secret, Galaxy, Enigma, Topaz) either need more time or colder conditioning temps, or some level of fining. They have a much higher polyphenol content than US and NZ hops. Polyphenols = Burn

The statement I made about Whirlpool hops was referring to adding nearly the same amount of hops to the kettle as the whirlpool not whirlpool to DH. In my small 6g batches it’s usually only say 3oz in WP for beers with say 10oz DH addition.

I’m not a big fan of beers with just big WP additions. I think they lack depth and complexity. I’m usually doing a decent 60/20/5 additions as well. Adjusting pH to minimize bittering from the 20/5 additions.

I've read that the lower the PH the less hop utilization in terms of bitterness... Ideally you want to be in between 5.2 and 5.4
Are you aiming for lower then 5.2 ?
How would you account for the IBU's in for instance Beersmith? Do the IBU's really drop or is it just a more different perceived bitterness?

How much IBU's do you like in your NEIPA's? I do all my additions after cooling my whirlpool to sub 180c and i'm still getting a nice amount of bitterness.
I can't imagine adding 20 and 5 minutes additions without getting more bitterness then I wanted especially with a 60min addition as well

In the podcast with Monkish they said they aim for a post boil PH of 5 for their NEIPA's. If I remember correctly this was mostly to protect against bacterial growth.

 

[stz]

Could I ask you what kind of PH you aim for in the mash?
I've read the boil will bring PH down by 0.1-0.2 so a mash PH of 5.4 seems about right.

5.2-5.5 is fine in the mash, but as close to 5.2 as I can get it really. Lower is better than higher for me throughout. The sparge will bring it back up again and thus preboil is usually 5.4-5.5. Again I prefer lower values. Drop post boil is usually 0.2-0.4, but it is variable depending on grist/salts. Post boil I am usually staring at 5.0-5.3. I typically want to be staring at 4.9-5.0.

Use acid to remove close to all of the residual alkalinity from your water. Salts alone won't usually get you there in super pale beer. If you find the mash pH is good, but the post boil drop is not aggressive enough you can bring a portion of the salts across to the boil to mitigate any solubility problems. I theorise that when I see a good mash pH, but get a weaker than expected post boil drop that I've excess salts in the mash. Phosphate is fully reacted in the mash, excess calcium precipitates out and isn't carried across into the boil. Obviously you still need sufficient salts in the mash, but moving a third to the boil at first is not a bad trial.

Why do I want to run pH so low? Because 10g/L of dry hop regularly brings final beer pH from 4.3 to 4.9. Sticking beer in can at 4.9 .. I can't sleep at night!

 

[beervoid]

5.2-5.5 is fine in the mash, but as close to 5.2 as I can get it really. Lower is better than higher for me throughout. The sparge will bring it back up again and thus preboil is usually 5.4-5.5. Again I prefer lower values. Drop post boil is usually 0.2-0.4, but it is variable depending on grist/salts. Post boil I am usually staring at 5.0-5.3. I typically want to be staring at 4.9-5.0.

Use acid to remove close to all of the residual alkalinity from your water. Salts alone won't usually get you there in super pale beer. If you find the mash pH is good, but the post boil drop is not aggressive enough you can bring a portion of the salts across to the boil to mitigate any solubility problems. I theorise that when I see a good mash pH, but get a weaker than expected post boil drop that I've excess salts in the mash. Phosphate is fully reacted in the mash, excess calcium precipitates out and isn't carried across into the boil. Obviously you still need sufficient salts in the mash, but moving a third to the boil at first is not a bad trial.

Why do I want to run pH so low? Because 10g/L of dry hop regularly brings final beer pH from 4.3 to 4.9. Sticking beer in can at 4.9 .. I can't sleep at night!

Great information.
May I ask if you have a way to calculate any acid additions you use post boil and post fermentation?

 

[specharka]

5.2-5.5 is fine in the mash, but as close to 5.2 as I can get it really. Lower is better than higher for me throughout. The sparge will bring it back up again and thus preboil is usually 5.4-5.5. Again I prefer lower values. Drop post boil is usually 0.2-0.4, but it is variable depending on grist/salts. Post boil I am usually staring at 5.0-5.3. I typically want to be staring at 4.9-5.0.

Use acid to remove close to all of the residual alkalinity from your water. Salts alone won't usually get you there in super pale beer. If you find the mash pH is good, but the post boil drop is not aggressive enough you can bring a portion of the salts across to the boil to mitigate any solubility problems. I theorise that when I see a good mash pH, but get a weaker than expected post boil drop that I've excess salts in the mash. Phosphate is fully reacted in the mash, excess calcium precipitates out and isn't carried across into the boil. Obviously you still need sufficient salts in the mash, but moving a third to the boil at first is not a bad trial.

Why do I want to run pH so low? Because 10g/L of dry hop regularly brings final beer pH from 4.3 to 4.9. Sticking beer in can at 4.9 .. I can't sleep at night!

Hmm...I wonder. Does this have anything to do with USDA laws regarding pasteurization of food and beverage over 4.6 pH?

Not saying I disagree with any of it...I’ve had a fair amount of muddy IPAs with high pH myself.

 

[stz]

calculate any acid additions you use post boil and post fermentation?

I wish there was a simple way to calculate it, but it is just easier to scale it from a sample. 100ml in a vial, add acid drop by drop while swirling until pH is reached, do the math to scale it up. You do need to know volume to be treated.

 

[beervoid]

I wish there was a simple way to calculate it, but it is just easier to scale it from a sample. 100ml in a vial, add acid drop by drop while swirling until pH is reached, do the math to scale it up. You do need to know volume to be treated.

I see that's a good strategy.
I would like to be able to calculate stuff so I've been looking into calculations but it's way over my head. There is a topic in the science part here that deals with boil PH additions and how to calculate it. I'm assuming the same formula can be used for post fermentation.
https://www.homebrewtalk.com/forum/threads/calculating-acid-when-adjusting-boil-ph.571500/

I currently don't have any PH meter so i'm trying my best to get in the ballpark to test out the effects. How much would you use of what acid on avarage for a 5 gal batch?

 

[beervoid]

Just found an interesting read here: https://www.homebrewersassociation.org/forum/index.php?topic=4875.15
Seems PH is indeed very hard to calculate and to adjust.

But even more interesting is the remark that a mash PH of 5.7 and a boil ph of 5.2 resulted in the lowest PH post fermentation in one experiment.
Wonder if this goes for all yeasts

Quoted from post in above link by Kai

"Narziss/Back show some interesting data on the comparison between mash, wort and combined mash/wort acidification:

No acidification: mash pH = 5.75, cast out wort pH = 5.65, beer pH = 4.61
mash acidification: mash pH = 5.52, cast out wort pH = 5.47, beer pH = 4.55
wort acidification: mash pH = 5.74, cast out wort pH = 5.20, beer pH = 4.36
combined mash/wort acidification: mash pH = 5.52, cast out wort pH = 5.20, beer pH = 4.43"

 

[stickyfinger]

Regarding biotransformation: I have been under the impression that any time we dry hop in the primary we are getting some biotransformation. The reason for this belief is that I have added hops to a cold, carbonated keg of IPA before, and I found the hop character to be completely different from a beer in which hops have been added at any point in fermentation (prior to packaging.) The beers with hops added to the cold, carbonated beer have a VERY strong flowery, perfumey character - I think geraniol is a major player here, as I feel like I am smelling a geranium plant when I drink beers that I have had hops added after packaging.

I did do a 24 dry hop one time and cold-crashed right after. That beer had an intense character that I wasn't used to. Maybe it was a combo of biotransformation and some non-biotransformed compounds in the beer.

I'm very interested in how The Alchemist gets their hop flavor. It is known that they partially crash to 50s and dry hop there? I had heard that they dry hop on the cool side.

 

[beervoid]

Regarding biotransformation: I have been under the impression that any time we dry hop in the primary we are getting some biotransformation. The reason for this belief is that I have added hops to a cold, carbonated keg of IPA before, and I found the hop character to be completely different from a beer in which hops have been added at any point in fermentation (prior to packaging.) The beers with hops added to the cold, carbonated beer have a VERY strong flowery, perfumey character - I think geraniol is a major player here, as I feel like I am smelling a geranium plant when I drink beers that I have had hops added after packaging.

I did do a 24 dry hop one time and cold-crashed right after. That beer had an intense character that I wasn't used to. Maybe it was a combo of biotransformation and some non-biotransformed compounds in the beer.

I'm very interested in how The Alchemist gets their hop flavor. It is known that they partially crash to 50s and dry hop there? I had heard that they dry hop on the cool side.

What you are describing sounds more like the effect of dry hopping on different temperatures.
There is research out there that shows different temps extract different flavours.
Warmer is more fruity, colder is more earthy grassy.
I just dry hopped a kveik ipa with a biotransformation hop experiment at 36c. It smelled like rotten fruits.

 

[couchsending]

Regarding biotransformation: I have been under the impression that any time we dry hop in the primary we are getting some biotransformation. The reason for this belief is that I have added hops to a cold, carbonated keg of IPA before, and I found the hop character to be completely different from a beer in which hops have been added at any point in fermentation (prior to packaging.) The beers with hops added to the cold, carbonated beer have a VERY strong flowery, perfumey character - I think geraniol is a major player here, as I feel like I am smelling a geranium plant when I drink beers that I have had hops added after packaging.

I did do a 24 dry hop one time and cold-crashed right after. That beer had an intense character that I wasn't used to. Maybe it was a combo of biotransformation and some non-biotransformed compounds in the beer.

I'm very interested in how The Alchemist gets their hop flavor. It is known that they partially crash to 50s and dry hop there? I had heard that they dry hop on the cool side.

Yeah I believe what you’re describing is more temperature related than anything else.

As far as the Alchemist process goes we know a few things. Their beers are only dry hoped once with a relatively small amount of hops compared to today’s “standard”. Based on info in the IPA book and what I’ve seen on their Instagram page and other experiences at the brewery, they’re cooling to a rather low temp after fermentation to get Conan to flocc then after pulling yeast adding pellets in a large bag in a Grundy of some sort and recirculating for a period of time. No idea if they’re letting the temp rise over those few days or not.

We know he’s said 4-5 days for contact time. Their hoppy beers are always a blend of 3-4 different tanks into one bright... or at least Heady brewed in Waterbury is.

 

[Cevan65]

I would like to hear from people that go on the higher side of dry hopping (10oz+) and would be curious to know if they do dry hop during active fermentation? and if they have dry hopped only after active fermentation if they noticed a difference?

I brewed two 3 gallon batches using the same grain bill. Only difference was one was DH'd during fermentation and the other after fermentation. Each had 4 oz towards the end of the boil thru 170 degrees and 4 oz DH. Neither had any harshness. The one DH'd during fermentation had more hop aroma and taste. I've stopped DDH for now as I feel it isn't worth the risk of infection (and TH doesn't do it ;-).

 

[wepeeler]

For my neipas, I get a sweet/extra juicy flavor from biotransformation hopping. I believe the idea behind the biotransformation is that the yeast interacts with the hops and help produce flavors that hops alone can't impart. Dry hopping during fermentation not only produces these flavors, but also helps drive out the O2 introduced by the act of dry hopping. Personally, my beers have never lacked aroma, so I don't fully buy into the idea that the fermentation is driving off hop aroma. I've dry hopped anywhere from day 1 up to the day before kegging (everything goes into keg within 14 days), and I've settled on 1st dry hop on day 2 (I brew Thursday evening, dry hop on Saturday), then another dry hop 3 days before keg. 6 gallon batches, 2 x 3 oz dry hops. I've tried all 6 oz dry hops at once, and I'm not as happy with the results. Flavor is there, but aroma is lacking. I do find that if I include Galaxy, there is a bit of burn, although I'm not convinced it's all the hops. Yeast can give a burn as well. I find the beer mellows and tastes best after being in the keg for 2 weeks. So, 2 weeks primary, keg, then 2 weeks after it begins to peak. Never had one go longer than 6 weeks in the keg, so I can't vouch for anything beyond that. I will say though, my last neipa was an all Mosaic, and I really couldn't stand it the day after I kegged it (of course I have to sample it!). By the last pour, I was pissed that I gave so much of it away so early, because it was FANTASTIC after sitting in the keg for 4 weeks. You live, you learn...

 

[eugles]

On the recent CB&B podcast Aslin also noted that they don’t dry hop during fermentation, same with Monkish among others. It’s literally wasting hops.

After negative for diacetyl drop to 50/55/60 (depending on you yeast) with head pressure. Let sit for a day or two. Pull as much yeast as possible. Let climb back up to 60 and dry hop for 3 days between 60 and 65. Add all at once or split it up. Rouse once or twice with Co2. Crash or gradually cool as low as you can. Let sit for a few days. Transfer and carbonate.

Aussie hops are especially high in polyphenol content. The harsh bitterness and chalky taste comes from polyphenols. They generally need more time at lower temps to settle out and your beer will be much much more enjoyable. You can also use a smaller dose of biofine and don’t worry you won’t lose haze.

I add equal amounts of hops to the kettle as I do in the WP and my beers are in no way bitter. Bitterness is perceived at the front of your palate. If you are perceiving harshness at the end of the palate that’s from water/tannins/polyphenols/yeast not from IBUs.

Most of the best commercial examples are dry hopped at rates around 4lbs per barrel. I’ve seen Monkish do a 9lb per barrel DH as well. Some would say over 2lbs per bbl is a waste. I definitely notice a difference between 2 and 4. My 6 gallon batches usually get 10-12 ounces always after fermentation. Less yeast in your beer more aromatics you’ll get. And don’t worry if you use juicy hops you’ll still get juicy flavors even if you don’t add them during fermentation.

I'm following the exact same practice on my current brew after listening to the same podcast. Wondering what would rousing look like in my dry hop corny keg? Should I shake it up, or actually push some co2 through the liquid post?

 

[couchsending]

I’d just push some Co2 through the liquid out a couple times.

Just re-listened to a great MBAA podcast with Ben Edmunds from Breakside. He talked about their dry hopping procedure and how they had tried everything from recirculation to torpedos etc. and had gone back to the old fashioned way of adding them through the top while sending Co2 through the CIP arm. They also rouse with Co2 but he said they couldn’t tell the difference between one roused only once and one roused 4 times.

 

[eugles]

I’d just push some Co2 through the liquid out a couple times.

Just re-listened to a great MBAA podcast with Ben Edmunds from Breakside. He talked about their dry hopping procedure and how they had tried everything from recirculation to torpedos etc. and had gone back to the old fashioned way of adding them through the top while sending Co2 through the CIP arm. They also rouse with Co2 but he said they couldn’t tell the difference between one roused only once and one roused 4 times.

Awesome thanks! I'll check out that podcast as well. I'm on a mission to recreate Reciprocal from Bissell Brothers after trying it this summer in Maine. I feel i have the mouthfeel and taste down pretty well, but super lacking in the aroma dept.