My theory and experience with Biotransformation of dry hops in a NEIPA.

[beervoid]

Hello everyone,

Allow me to share some thoughts and speculations for you to consider and hopefully add to my hypothesis.

I've been mainly brewing New England style IPA's this year and have been testing out all kinds of factors.

I've done both dry hopping during active fermentation and after but for now have settled on dry hopping mostly after fermentation is done as I didn't notice much difference.

As a brulosophy experiment seems to show there is indeed a "small" flavor difference in beers dry hopped during active fermentation.
I'm of the opinion this is probably due to that we loose some "fresh" hop flavors through whatever co2 is being blown away.

Now I have been extensively researching NEIPA's and I would argue there is probably ample evidence that pro and home brewers alike are still dry hopping during active fermentation.
So if it doesn't really make a difference flavor wise and is actually counter productive in trying to preserve as many hop oils as possible, what else is there?

I've noticed some people claim to dry hop at ridiculous high amounts. Up to 1lbs in 5 gallons.
I've also read that commercial breweries use in between 12 to 16oz for 5 gallons in their "Double Dry Hopped" beers.
Notice the term DOUBLE.. which might point to dry hopping during active fermentation?

Now i've pushed my NEIPA's to 12oz on 5 gallons and this beer was completely undrinkable. Very harsh flavors which where still there even 4 weeks after cold crashing.
I might attribute this to the particular batch of Galaxy pellet hops but it got me thinking...
Aside from the fact that pro brewers can use a centrifuge to filter their beers with precision we home brewers can't achieve...
What if dry hopping during active fermentation has something to do with it?

Scott Janish wrote an article about polyphenols and how wheats and oats can help drop them out.
I'm wondering that since most NEIPA's have some form of extra protein additives like wheat and oats in the recipe, could it be that with the ridiculous dry hopping rates (16oz in 5 gallons) this first dry hop amount during active fermentation actually drops out some or most unwanted particles, polyphenols and gives room for another later dry hop charge.

In other words does "biotransformation" not make the hops more juicy but is it just a way to get more hops into the beer without over extracting unwanted flavors?

I've settled myself for now on 8oz-10oz of dry hopping (mostly cryo hops) and
have yet to put this idea to the test and was hoping on some feedback and experiences of other.

EDIT. with 8-10oz dry hops I take into account cryo counts double so would put about 2-4oz pellets and 2-4oz cryo

Cheers!

 

[Jtvann]

Had two recipes exactly the same .One was delicious, one was a dumper .The one and only difference was cold crashing after complete fermentation. Controlling O2 ingress during cold crashing is a must. Every NEIPA that I've made and successfully cold crashed has been delicious on the very first pour after carbonation. I usually cold crash at 34 degrees for 2-3 days and then keg. I've got one right now on day 8 of fermentation that i will cold crash tomorrow.

My opinion is that the harsh bitterness is directly from hop particulate still suspended in the beer.

 

[beervoid]

Had two recipes exactly the same .One was delicious, one was a dumper .The one and only difference was cold crashing after complete fermentation. Controlling O2 ingress during cold crashing is a must. Every NEIPA that I've made and successfully cold crashed has been delicious on the very first pour after carbonation. I usually cold crash at 34 degrees for 2-3 days and then keg. I've got one right now on day 8 of fermentation that i will cold crash tomorrow.

My opinion is that the harsh bitterness is directly from hop particulate still suspended in the beer.

There seems to be a point where harsh bitterness isn't dropping out anymore by cold crashing when using higher amounts (10oz+)in my experience. As given in the example above I had to wait 4 weeks to notice a little difference.
Hence my theory on dry hopping during active fermentation for higher dry hopping amounts.
How much dry hops are you using?

 

[Jtvann]

My recipe calls for 6 ounces of dry hops. I usually throw in 3 ounces 24-36 hrs after pitching and the other 3 at 5 days in, or 10 pts before final gravity.

 

[cooper]

Is this 12 oz in the dry hop alone or the entire batch? I’ve added 6oz at whirlpool and another 6oz on day 3 and had pretty harsh beer as a result

 

[Ozarks Mountain Brewery]

ibu or hop harshness is all related to the hardness in the water, if you add enough acid to drop the ph to the 5.4 range from 8 then nothing will taste harsh because it eliminates the hardness in the water so it's all relative and cannot be measured by one person

 

[cooper]

ibu or hop harshness is all related to the hardness in the water, if you add enough acid to drop the ph to the 5.4 range from 8 then nothing will taste harsh because it eliminates the hardness in the water so it's all relative and cannot be measured by one person

I agree this could definitely be a cause of harshness but I don’t think it’s always the case. In my experience I always use RO water and I’ll treat the entire amount with phosphoric acid to a ph of 5.5 before I mash in. I always add a tsp of CaCl2 and/or gypsum to the mash depending on what I’m brewing and I’ll also take a ph reading about 20-30 mins into the mash where I typically get anywhere between 5.1-5.4 at room temp depending on the recipe.

For instance the last NEIPA I did came in at a ph of 5.1 and it was super harsh with the ‘hop burn’ and it never diminished. I used 6grams at 60 mins in the boil and 6oz in a 20 minute whirlpool at 180F. Then I used another 6oz on day three of fermentation. It looked beautiful but tasted pretty harsh.

 

[beervoid]

Is this 12 oz in the dry hop alone or the entire batch? I’ve added 6oz at whirlpool and another 6oz on day 3 and had pretty harsh beer as a result

Dry hop only, I use about 4-6oz in whirlpool mostly.

 

[beervoid]

ibu or hop harshness is all related to the hardness in the water, if you add enough acid to drop the ph to the 5.4 range from 8 then nothing will taste harsh because it eliminates the hardness in the water so it's all relative and cannot be measured by one person

I always meassure my PH and keep it on the lower side of the range. Def sub 5.4 probaly around 5.2, 5.3 most of the time.
I haven't experienced any of this harsh bitterness you are describing on lower dry hopping amounts and usage of cryo.
Usually 60%+ of my hops are cryo so perhaps it may have something to do with it

 

[beervoid]

I agree this could definitely be a cause of harshness but I don’t think it’s always the case. In my experience I always use RO water and I’ll treat the entire amount with phosphoric acid to a ph of 5.5 before I mash in. I always add a tsp of CaCl2 and/or gypsum to the mash depending on what I’m brewing and I’ll also take a ph reading about 20-30 mins into the mash where I typically get anywhere between 5.1-5.4 at room temp depending on the recipe.

For instance the last NEIPA I did came in at a ph of 5.1 and it was super harsh with the ‘hop burn’ and it never diminished. I used 6grams at 60 mins in the boil and 6oz in a 20 minute whirlpool at 180F. Then I used another 6oz on day three of fermentation. It looked beautiful but tasted pretty harsh.

View attachment 591449

With 6oz I have experienced harshness but it would fade after about 1 week or so.

 

[b_oh_bee]

Had two recipes exactly the same .One was delicious, one was a dumper .The one and only difference was cold crashing after complete fermentation. Controlling O2 ingress during cold crashing is a must. Every NEIPA that I've made and successfully cold crashed has been delicious on the very first pour after carbonation. I usually cold crash at 34 degrees for 2-3 days and then keg. I've got one right now on day 8 of fermentation that i will cold crash tomorrow.

My opinion is that the harsh bitterness is directly from hop particulate still suspended in the beer.

curious how you go about mitigating 02 ingress during crashing. trying like hell to make a decent hazy pale/ipa, have wanted to add crashing as a step but have also been very afraid and taking care to not introduce additional oxygen

 

[beervoid]

I would like to hear from people that go on the higher side of dry hopping (10oz+) and would be curious to know if they do dry hop during active fermentation? and if they have dry hopped only after active fermentation if they noticed a difference?

 

[beervoid]

curious how you go about mitigating 02 ingress during crashing. trying like hell to make a decent hazy pale/ipa, have wanted to add crashing as a step but have also been very afraid and taking care to not introduce additional oxygen

I ferment under pressure in a keg and naturally carbonate my beers.

 

[cooper]

curious how you go about mitigating 02 ingress during crashing. trying like hell to make a decent hazy pale/ipa, have wanted to add crashing as a step but have also been very afraid and taking care to not introduce additional oxygen

This is how I cold crash and it works really well. Got this pic off the internet; not my setup as I’m not currently cold crashing anything.

 

[b_oh_bee]

This is how I cold crash and it works really well. Got this pic off the internet; not my setup as I’m not currently cold crashing anything.

View attachment 591528

and you fill the baloon with CO2 I assume?

 

[cooper]

and you fill the baloon with CO2 I assume?

Yup. Just take the connector off the hose and turn on the gas and it’ll fill quickly

 

[beervoid]

I agree this could definitely be a cause of harshness but I don’t think it’s always the case. In my experience I always use RO water and I’ll treat the entire amount with phosphoric acid to a ph of 5.5 before I mash in. I always add a tsp of CaCl2 and/or gypsum to the mash depending on what I’m brewing and I’ll also take a ph reading about 20-30 mins into the mash where I typically get anywhere between 5.1-5.4 at room temp depending on the recipe.

For instance the last NEIPA I did came in at a ph of 5.1 and it was super harsh with the ‘hop burn’ and it never diminished. I used 6grams at 60 mins in the boil and 6oz in a 20 minute whirlpool at 180F. Then I used another 6oz on day three of fermentation. It looked beautiful but tasted pretty harsh.

View attachment 591449

Which hops did you use?
And how long did the harshness stay?
How much wheat/oats where in it?

 

[cooper]

Which hops did you use?
And how long did the harshness stay?
How much wheat/oats where in it?

The harshness never went away on this one. The one I did previously with pretty much the same grain bill but with C/G/M hops lost the harshness after about a week and was delicious. I don’t think I cold crashed this one first though.

5# Pils
3.5# Golden Promise
3.5# Malted Wheat
1# Flaked Barley
1# Flaked Oats

Hops are below. Dry hops went in on day three. So they were in the fermenter for about 12 days.

 

[day_trippr]

Whirlpooling 6 ounces at 180°F is likely the issue wrt an unexpectedly bitter product. Try 170°F next time...

Cheers!

 

[Smellyglove]

Whirlpooling 6 ounces at 180°F is likely the issue wrt an unexpectedly bitter product. Try 170°F next time...

Cheers!

Still will pull some bitterness and evaporate the goods. Try 55-60C is my tip. Been doing this for years. But add bittering hops to target IBU.

 

[SanPancho]

First- the scoop from the hop suppliers is that cryo is 2:1 vs regular pellets. So your 6-8oz is the equivalent of 12-16oz pellets. Sounds like you are applying a quasi similar rate.

As for ph, remember that dry hops elevate the ph of wort. Mash ph doesn’t necessarily have any relationship to final beer ph and harshness. You can, and should imho, adjust your ph to deal with this. Either at start of boil, or before knockout. Personally i do knockout to be sure im where i want to be when yeast start working.

 

[cooper]

First- the scoop from the hop suppliers is that cryo is 2:1 vs regular pellets. So your 6-8oz is the equivalent of 12-16oz pellets. Sounds like you are applying a quasi similar rate.

As for ph, remember that dry hops elevate the ph of wort. Mash ph doesn’t necessarily have any relationship to final beer ph and harshness. You can, and should imho, adjust your ph to deal with this. Either at start of boil, or before knockout. Personally i do knockout to be sure im where i want to be when yeast start working.

This is what I’ll be doing for the next batch. Along with whirlpooling at a lower temp.

 

[beervoid]

The harshness never went away on this one. The one I did previously with pretty much the same grain bill but with C/G/M hops lost the harshness after about a week and was delicious. I don’t think I cold crashed this one first though.

5# Pils
3.5# Golden Promise
3.5# Malted Wheat
1# Flaked Barley
1# Flaked Oats

Hops are below. Dry hops went in on day three. So they were in the fermenter for about 12 days.

View attachment 591553

What exactly do you mean by, "I don’t think I cold crashed this one first though."

Cold crashing should act as filtration and filter any harshness away, but it seems that when you use higher amounts of hops this becomes trickier... Your recipe had only 7oz pellet hops though, i've used up to 10oz with sucess but that was with more then half cryo so less polyphenols..
The highest pellets I dry hopped with was probably 6oz and that took about 2 weeks to get nice and juicy without dry hopping during fermentation

citra denali and el dorado all great dry hops... are you sure they where fresh?
I did have a batch go bad on me because I used a bunch of old CTZ in the whirlpool... it harshness overpowerd everything and never went away..
I typically throw all my hops in at flameout and begin cooling right away... I didn't ever experience any benefit from longer steeping times.

 

[beervoid]

First- the scoop from the hop suppliers is that cryo is 2:1 vs regular pellets. So your 6-8oz is the equivalent of 12-16oz pellets. Sounds like you are applying a quasi similar rate.

As for ph, remember that dry hops elevate the ph of wort. Mash ph doesn’t necessarily have any relationship to final beer ph and harshness. You can, and should imho, adjust your ph to deal with this. Either at start of boil, or before knockout. Personally i do knockout to be sure im where i want to be when yeast start working.

I'm not sure if you where replying to a post of mine but I do take into account that cryo counts as double the pellet hops so when I say I hopped with pellet and cryo with 10oz for instance... I would dry hop with something like 3oz pellets and 3.5oz cryo

Where would you want to be PH wise on knockout?
Which minerals do you use?

I've been meaning to experiment with mineral additions in the boil...

 

[cooper]

What exactly do you mean by, "I don’t think I cold crashed this one first though."

Cold crashing should act as filtration and filter any harshness away, but it seems that when you use higher amounts of hops this becomes trickier... Your recipe had only 7oz pellet hops though, i've used up to 10oz with sucess but that was with more then half cryo so less polyphenols..
The highest pellets I dry hopped with was probably 6oz and that took about 2 weeks to get nice and juicy without dry hopping during fermentation

citra denali and el dorado all great dry hops... are you sure they where fresh?
I did have a batch go bad on me because I used a bunch of old CTZ in the whirlpool... it harshness overpowerd everything and never went away..
I typically throw all my hops in at flameout and begin cooling right away... I didn't ever experience any benefit from longer steeping times.

Not sure as to the freshness but they were bought by the pound from YVH and they seemed fresh when I opened them. I don’t think I cold crashed this NEIPA. I think I did cold crash the previous one. You’re also saying you typically wait to dryhop till after fermentation?

 

[SanPancho]

I'm not sure if you where replying to a post of mine but I do take into account that cryo counts as double the pellet hops so when I say I hopped with pellet and cryo with 10oz for instance... I would dry hop with something like 3oz pellets and 3.5oz cryo

Where would you want to be PH wise on knockout?
Which minerals do you use?

I've been meaning to experiment with mineral additions in the boil...

Ah, got it.

Final ph is generally best from 4 to 4.5. Start measuring final ph before carbing and then if you get a beer where you think the hops dont pop as much as you like try adjusting ph down a bit. It can make a very noticeable difference in character of the beer. I generally use acid (phosphoric is considered flavor neutral) and not minerals to adjust.

Each yeast has its own sweet spot of where it ends up in ph so every beer will be bit different.

 

[GPP33]

Ah, got it.

Final ph is generally best from 4 to 4.5. Start measuring final ph before carbing and then if you get a beer where you think the hops dont pop as much as you like try adjusting ph down a bit. It can make a very noticeable difference in character of the beer. I generally use acid (phosphoric is considered flavor neutral) and not minerals to adjust.

Each yeast has its own sweet spot of where it ends up in ph so every beer will be bit different.

Do you only lower the pH? How would you go about raising it?

 

[schematix]

brulosophy is a joke.

carry on.

 

[patchedboard]

At CBC they were talking about ~10g/L being the optimal dry hopping amount and 12g/L being the terminal limit for perception.

 

[patchedboard]

Also for a “greener/resinous” character 3-5 days dry hopping, for a juicier character 10-14 days.

 

[SanPancho]

Do you only lower the pH? How would you go about raising it?

Ive only ever lowered it. Not sure why youd want to raise it, but in theory it be chalk, or baking soda if you can add sodium.

And i should point out that 4 to 4.5 is a general range, with 4.5 being the upper limit for commercial packaged beer for microbial stability. If your batch is 4.6 or 7, and it tastes fine, so be it.

 

[couchsending]

On the recent CB&B podcast Aslin also noted that they don’t dry hop during fermentation, same with Monkish among others. It’s literally wasting hops.

After negative for diacetyl drop to 50/55/60 (depending on you yeast) with head pressure. Let sit for a day or two. Pull as much yeast as possible. Let climb back up to 60 and dry hop for 3 days between 60 and 65. Add all at once or split it up. Rouse once or twice with Co2. Crash or gradually cool as low as you can. Let sit for a few days. Transfer and carbonate.

Aussie hops are especially high in polyphenol content. The harsh bitterness and chalky taste comes from polyphenols. They generally need more time at lower temps to settle out and your beer will be much much more enjoyable. You can also use a smaller dose of biofine and don’t worry you won’t lose haze.

I add equal amounts of hops to the kettle as I do in the WP and my beers are in no way bitter. Bitterness is perceived at the front of your palate. If you are perceiving harshness at the end of the palate that’s from water/tannins/polyphenols/yeast not from IBUs.

Most of the best commercial examples are dry hopped at rates around 4lbs per barrel. I’ve seen Monkish do a 9lb per barrel DH as well. Some would say over 2lbs per bbl is a waste. I definitely notice a difference between 2 and 4. My 6 gallon batches usually get 10-12 ounces always after fermentation. Less yeast in your beer more aromatics you’ll get. And don’t worry if you use juicy hops you’ll still get juicy flavors even if you don’t add them during fermentation.

 

[thehaze]

I don't dry hop during fermentation, but I will dry hop at the tail or end of fermentation. Dry hop amounts vary from 5 to 10 oz hops, depending on the rcipe. I whirlpool at 158F and under with amounts between 5 and 8 oz hops.

I have yet to experience harshness due to amount of hops. I have experienced harshness due to water treatment.

 

[specharka]

On the recent CB&B podcast Aslin also noted that they don’t dry hop during fermentation, same with Monkish among others. It’s literally wasting hops.

After negative for diacetyl drop to 50/55/60 (depending on you yeast) with head pressure. Let sit for a day or two. Pull as much yeast as possible. Let climb back up to 60 and dry hop for 3 days between 60 and 65. Add all at once or split it up. Rouse once or twice with Co2. Crash or gradually cool as low as you can. Let sit for a few days. Transfer and carbonate.

Aussie hops are especially high in polyphenol content. The harsh bitterness and chalky taste comes from polyphenols. They generally need more time at lower temps to settle out and your beer will be much much more enjoyable. You can also use a smaller dose of biofine and don’t worry you won’t lose haze.

I add equal amounts of hops to the kettle as I do in the WP and my beers are in no way bitter. Bitterness is perceived at the front of your pallet. If you are perceiving harshness at the end of the pallet that’s from water/tannins/polyphenols/yeast not from IBUs.

Most of the best commercial examples are dry hopped at rates around 4lbs per barrel. I’ve seen Monkish do a 9lb per barrel DH as well. Some would say over 2lbs per bbl is a waste. I definitely notice a difference between 2 and 4. My 6 gallon batches usually get 10-12 ounces always after fermentation. Less yeast in your beer more aromatics you’ll get. And don’t worry if you use juicy hops you’ll still get juicy flavors even if you don’t add them during fermentation.

Hmm, the only thing I really don’t understand is why raise the temperature to dry hop? I know Alchemist and others soft crash, harvest yeast & dry hop just outside fermentation temperatures (55-58F) to avoid diacetyl production and hop creep. Seems like raising it thereafter would only exacerbate chances for hop creep.

I believe the argument isn’t “there’s no perceived difference” it’s “there’s massively diminishing returns” going from 2-4 lb/bbl. What’s fascinating to me is some of the “hoppiest” commercial beers are actually more modest in terms of hopping rates (Heady & Julius are under 2 lb/bbl).

 

[couchsending]

Hmm, the only thing I really don’t understand is why raise the temperature to dry hop? I know Alchemist and others soft crash, harvest yeast & dry hop just outside fermentation temperatures (55-58F) to avoid diacetyl production and hop creep. Seems like raising it thereafter would only exacerbate chances for hop creep.

I believe the argument isn’t “there’s no perceived difference” it’s “there’s massively diminishing returns” going from 2-4 lb/bbl. What’s fascinating to me is some of the “hoppiest” commercial beers are actually more modest in terms of hopping rates (Heady & Julius are under 2 lb/bbl).

I think it all depends on hop and yeast variety. There are benefits to dry hopping slightly warmer (low 60s vs 40s-50s). In the research I've seen only certain varieties are known to cause hop creep.

I wouldn't call Julius a "hoppy" beer nowadays. Most of the aroma in that beer is yeast driven. Their new versions of the core beers with all the extra letters have much higher hopping loads and more hop character along the lines of what a lot of other breweries are doing in that "style" now.

 

[SanPancho]

At CBC they were talking about ~10g/L being the optimal dry hopping amount and 12g/L being the terminal limit for perception.

Thats roughly 2 to 3.5 lbs per bbl. seems totally reasonable.

 

[beervoid]

Not sure as to the freshness but they were bought by the pound from YVH and they seemed fresh when I opened them. I don’t think I cold crashed this NEIPA. I think I did cold crash the previous one. You’re also saying you typically wait to dryhop till after fermentation?

Yes cause I think its just a waste of hops to do the "biotransformation" hopping. I have not noticed any different flavours yet from this.

 

[beervoid]

Ah, got it.

Final ph is generally best from 4 to 4.5. Start measuring final ph before carbing and then if you get a beer where you think the hops dont pop as much as you like try adjusting ph down a bit. It can make a very noticeable difference in character of the beer. I generally use acid (phosphoric is considered flavor neutral) and not minerals to adjust.

Each yeast has its own sweet spot of where it ends up in ph so every beer will be bit different.

So you are talking adjusting the PH post fermentation?
I understand that yeast has the tendency to stabilize the PH during fermentation so it doesn't really matter much what your PH is pre fermentation. The only benefit of getting the right PH before fermentation is making it easyer for the yeast to get to the right PH level for that particular yeast.

 

[beervoid]

At CBC they were talking about ~10g/L being the optimal dry hopping amount and 12g/L being the terminal limit for perception.

I'm of the opinion and a brulosophy experiment showed this as well that higher dry hopping rates help with preserving the flavor for longer.
I've had some Trillium and Other Half DDH beers that where 3+ months old and they tasted fantastic.

Also for a “greener/resinous” character 3-5 days dry hopping, for a juicier character 10-14 days.

Research i've read showed that we don't need more dry hop contact time then 24h even less if agitated. Longer then that and more unwanted polyphenols are extracted.

 

[beervoid]

Hmm, the only thing I really don’t understand is why raise the temperature to dry hop? I know Alchemist and others soft crash, harvest yeast & dry hop just outside fermentation temperatures (55-58F) to avoid diacetyl production and hop creep. Seems like raising it thereafter would only exacerbate chances for hop creep.

That same report I mentioned above also showed that dry hopping at lower temperatures extract more grassy flavors.
Btw I think most of the researches I've mentioned are nicely summed up on Scott Janish his website, big props to him btw!