Most authentic lager yeast strain for Bohemian-type Pilsner

[Jaffy]

So for a VERY long time, I have been brewing lagers as they are my favorite type of beer and have developed an affinity for certain strands, particularly w/34-70 and other varients of the Weihenstephaner strain. And while I do love that strain, it is an extremely forgiving strain and one I would not consider to be tradtional or native to the Zatec type lagers of the Czech republic. So, what would the closest commercial strain be closest to those type of lagers?

 

[jdauria]

White Labs 800 and Wyeast 2001 are both the Pilsner Urquell "H" strain. S-23 dry yeast and Imperial L28 Urkel are not exact strain but very similar. Wyeast 2278 is Pilsner Urquell "D" strain. Wyeast 2000 is Budvar strain, White Labs 802 is similar but not the exact Budvar strain.

 

[monkeymath]

I'd be interested to hear some experiences with the various yeast strains. Czech lagers have a somewhat elusive quality to them, and I'm not sure if it has to do with the yeast.

 

[Miraculix]

800 is a nice strain. Very forgiving and floculates well. I used it in a warm fermented lager at room temperature and it turned out very lager like, just a SLIGHT hint of fruitiness. I think in recent genome sequencing, it has been shown to be actually an ale strain, nevertheless, it is my favourite lager stain so far.

 

[friarsmith]

For CZ Premium Pales (PU-ish beers), I prefer the “H” strains over the “D” strains. For lack of a better reason, the H has just made a better PU clone for me. Both are fine strains though.

For my lighter CZ Pale, I really like WLP802 as it (to me) lends a great dry/crisp quality to the style. It is great for American adjunct light lagers too.

 

[Broothru]

800 is a nice strain. Very forgiving and floculates well. I used it in a warm fermented lager at room temperature and it turned out very lager like, just a SLIGHT hint of fruitiness. I think in recent genome sequencing, it has been shown to be actually an ale strain, nevertheless, it is my favourite lager stain so far.

I didn't realize that WLP800 was sequenced to show it as cerevisiae instead of pastorainus. I'd heard that WLP838 looked to be ale instead of lager yeast, genetically speaking. It seems quite possible though since pastorainus is thought to be a mutation of bayanus crossed with cerevisiae along the Silk Road trade route in the vicinity of Pilsen. It does produce very nice lagers, though I've never tried it at ale fermentation temperatures.

 

[McMullan]

WLP800 fermented warm under 15psi has worked best for me in a Pilsner recipe. I wouldn't express any reluctance using it for fermenting lagers just because it's been claimed to be 'pure' cerevisiae, whatever that's supposed to be. I'm not sure how valid the sequencing was or whether it's been confirmed independently. It might just be down to mislabeling samples in the lab Regardless, it's clearly been selected for fermenting lagers and that's much more important biologically than its one-dimensional genome sequence. Behaviour - the endgame of biology. The important bit. DNA to a living organism is a little bit like paint is to an artist. Important, but, by itself, not that important.

 

[Broothru]

WLP800 fermented warm under 15psi has worked best for me in a Pilsner recipe. I wouldn't express any reluctance using it for fermenting lagers just because it's been claimed to be 'pure' cerevisiae, whatever that's supposed to be. I'm not sure how valid the sequencing was or whether it's been confirmed independently. It might just be down to mislabeling samples in the lab Regardless, it's clearly been selected for fermenting lagers and that's much more important biologically than its one-dimensional genome sequence. Behaviour - the endgame of biology. The important bit. DNA to a living organism is a little bit like paint is to an artist. Important, but, by itself, not that important.

Interesting analogy. Very well put!

 

[Miraculix]

WLP800 fermented warm under 15psi has worked best for me in a Pilsner recipe. I wouldn't express any reluctance using it for fermenting lagers just because it's been claimed to be 'pure' cerevisiae, whatever that's supposed to be. I'm not sure how valid the sequencing was or whether it's been confirmed independently. It might just be down to mislabeling samples in the lab Regardless, it's clearly been selected for fermenting lagers and that's much more important biologically than its one-dimensional genome sequence. Behaviour - the endgame of biology. The important bit. DNA to a living organism is a little bit like paint is to an artist. Important, but, by itself, not that important.

I agree, I don't care at all about the genetics when choosing a lager strain, except that one group usually deals much better with warmer temperatures than the other, but I don't remember which one was which

I'd happily ferment my lagers at 30c with kveik and call them lagers if they would taste like one (which they unfortunately don't).

We have saison strains within the English ale yeasts, so why not ferment lagers with ale yeasts, what is actually an ale yeast? Where is the exact border between lager and ale yeast? What's with hybrids? To me, the endproduct counts. If the result tastes like a lager, it is a lager to me and probably to 99.999999% of the beer drinkers on this planet.

 

[McMullan]

Where is the exact border between lager and ale yeast?

Well, as Saccharomyces species and hybrids, they're a lot more similar than they are different.

 

[monkeymath]

WLP800 fermented warm under 15psi has worked best for me in a Pilsner recipe. I wouldn't express any reluctance using it for fermenting lagers just because it's been claimed to be 'pure' cerevisiae, whatever that's supposed to be. I'm not sure how valid the sequencing was or whether it's been confirmed independently. It might just be down to mislabeling samples in the lab Regardless, it's clearly been selected for fermenting lagers and that's much more important biologically than its one-dimensional genome sequence. Behaviour - the endgame of biology. The important bit. DNA to a living organism is a little bit like paint is to an artist. Important, but, by itself, not that important.

I feel the same way. There are various concepts and attributions when it comes to yeast strains, and the meanings often differ decidedly.

There's "top fermenting" vs "bottom fermenting", "cerevisiae" vs "pastorianus" and "ale" vs "lager". These separations are often used almost synonymously, although really they mean quite different things:

- "top/bottom fermenting" is a description of the fermentation behaviour. From what I gathered, it's not always easy to place a yeast in either category. You might also wonder "why is it important where my yeast hangs out?".

- "cerevisiae/pastorianus" is a genetic distinction of the species to which a yeast strain belongs. Similar genetics often imply a similar phenotype, but not always. Pastorianus yeasts, possibly all originating from a single hybridisation event, display rather limited genetic diversity in comparison with cerevisiae, so labelling something as "pastorianus" tells us more about the yeast and the beer it produces than saying it was "cerevisiae".

- "ale/lager" actually refers to categories of beer styles styles and only indirectly to the yeasts used to make them. Note that the term "Lager" actually describes a maturation process, not the fermentation.

If the yeast used by a traditional Altbier brewery turned out to be pastorianus, does that mean they have in fact unknowingly been brewing lager all this time? What do you get when you use a bottom-fermenting kveik strain and lager the beer?

 

[Broothru]

I feel the same way. There are various concepts and attributions when it comes to yeast strains, and the meanings often differ decidedly.

There's "top fermenting" vs "bottom fermenting", "cerevisiae" vs "pastorianus" and "ale" vs "lager". These separations are often used almost synonymously, although really they mean quite different things:

- "top/bottom fermenting" is a description of the fermentation behaviour. From what I gathered, it's not always easy to place a yeast in either category. You might also wonder "why is it important where my yeast hangs out?".

- "cerevisiae/pastorianus" is a genetic distinction of the species to which a yeast strain belongs. Similar genetics often imply a similar phenotype, but not always. Pastorianus yeasts, possibly all originating from a single hybridisation event, display rather limited genetic diversity in comparison with cerevisiae, so labelling something as "pastorianus" tells us more about the yeast and the beer it produces than saying it was "cerevisiae".

- "ale/lager" actually refers to categories of beer styles styles and only indirectly to the yeasts used to make them. Note that the term "Lager" actually describes a maturation process, not the fermentation.

If the yeast used by a traditional Altbier brewery turned out to be pastorianus, does that mean they have in fact unknowingly been brewing lager all this time? What do you get when you use a bottom-fermenting kveik strain and lager the beer?

Excellent summation, sir!

 

[AzOr]

I feel the same way. There are various concepts and attributions when it comes to yeast strains, and the meanings often differ decidedly.

There's "top fermenting" vs "bottom fermenting", "cerevisiae" vs "pastorianus" and "ale" vs "lager". These separations are often used almost synonymously, although really they mean quite different things:

- "top/bottom fermenting" is a description of the fermentation behaviour. From what I gathered, it's not always easy to place a yeast in either category. You might also wonder "why is it important where my yeast hangs out?".

- "cerevisiae/pastorianus" is a genetic distinction of the species to which a yeast strain belongs. Similar genetics often imply a similar phenotype, but not always. Pastorianus yeasts, possibly all originating from a single hybridisation event, display rather limited genetic diversity in comparison with cerevisiae, so labelling something as "pastorianus" tells us more about the yeast and the beer it produces than saying it was "cerevisiae".

- "ale/lager" actually refers to categories of beer styles styles and only indirectly to the yeasts used to make them. Note that the term "Lager" actually describes a maturation process, not the fermentation.

If the yeast used by a traditional Altbier brewery turned out to be pastorianus, does that mean they have in fact unknowingly been brewing lager all this time? What do you get when you use a bottom-fermenting kveik strain and lager the beer?

This should be required reading, not only for beginner brewers, but also craft beer aficionados.
To quote my favorite line of this summation, “why do I care where my yeast hangs out”.

 

[JAReeves]

I just made my first lager and it's dry, crisp, clean and not fruity at all-none of the unpleasant characteristics in lager yeast that I normally dislike. WLP800 at 50F for two weeks, free-rise to 70F for 3 days, then cold-crashed to 40F and dry-hopped for a week. Closed-transfer to a keg, lager for 4 weeks (it's a 4%), and I'm getting nothing but good reviews from everyone. If this is what real Czech beer is supposed to taste like, I need to convince my wife we need a vacation!

 

[duncan_disorderly]

So for a VERY long time, I have been brewing lagers as they are my favorite type of beer and have developed an affinity for certain strands, particularly w/34-70 and other varients of the Weihenstephaner strain. And while I do love that strain, it is an extremely forgiving strain and one I would not consider to be tradtional or native to the Zatec type lagers of the Czech republic. So, what would the closest commercial strain be closest to those type of lagers?

Reply #178 on this thread from the AHA forum suggests that S-23 is a good option for a Bohemian lager. I read it a while ago and it struck me as the old timer home brewing poster has denigrated dry yeast for years as inferior to liquid.

https://www.homebrewersassociation.org/forum/index.php?topic=37410.165

 

[renstyle]

Trying out 2001 in a pressure fermentation right now for a BoPils @ 12 PSI.

Three days to go from 1.040 to 1.008 with a free rise from 18C/64.4F to 21.1C/70F. Not too shabby!