Missing Banana Esters, what am I doing wrong?

[ArkotRamathorn]

So as I started typing this out I started reading some more about the Wyeast 3333 German Wheat and some were reporting more clove-y phenols as opposed to banana esters, I will give the 3068 a try to see how much of a difference that makes.

But, to continue with what my original post was going to be. Recently did a remake of a dunkelweizen I made last year. Wasn't dark enough, and fermented too "clean" so to speak. I used the same 3333 strain on the first itteration of this beer. Both beers ended up around 1.048. Both times I pitched a single pack of 3333. As well both fermented in similar temperatures (approximately 70F).

They were, and are, delicious beers. But, I just am not catching that distinct banana ester that I catch in some commercial examples (one of my favorites would be Ayinger). Maybe I am misunderstanding something but wasn't it underpitching yeast and allowing to ferment at higher end of the temperature range that cause the banana esters to come out?

The first time the smack pack swelled up huge when I pitched. The 2nd beer it barely swelled (I thought it was a dead pack but pitched anyway), I've heard the swelling doesn't necessarily suggest viability but the 2nd time it more or less had to be less than the 100 billion cells when I pitched. As well when I read the Mr. Malty I would've underpitched by at least 25 billion cells correct? Assuming that the pack had a true 100 billion viable cells.

Is it the strain, or am I just really missing something somewhere about how to get the banana esters to shine? Can a primary fermentation longer than 2 weeks diminish the banana esters? (Disclaimer: I *love* banana esters, its by far my favorite aroma/flavor to experience in a beer)

 

[Warthaug]

Ester production depends on a few things - too much O2 at pitching time, over pitching, too cool a fermentation temperature, and a lack of free amino nitrogen (usually from using extract) can all limit ester formation.

The easiest way to get more esters is to warm the beer a little. Underpitching also helps, but you need to do it more than you did (try being short more like 100B, rather than 25B) - but such underpitching comes at the risk of a stalled fermentation.

Bryan

 

[camparks]

I am still relatively new, however I have found most yeast strains produce their esters in the first two stages and then spend the last stage cleaning out the esters they have produced. A safe way to impart that banana flavour would be to either rack the beer a few days early or ferment beer a few degrees warmer and then lower it only a few degrees towards the end of fermentation. This will increase cell volume but slow down the yeast at cleaning up the esters.

 

[AerationStation]

From personal experience I ferment the wizen yeasts at about 62F. It's counter to most of the conventional advice but works will for me as far as ester profile goes.

 

[ArkotRamathorn]

The way I hear some discussion about underpitching I always thought it would be a much smaller margin for error in the range of 10% or more of underpitch could cause huge problems. When I remake this beer again I will just go ahead and up it to the 1.060 range to increase the underpitch. Another misconception I guess that the margin for error, anything over 65F will give you esters, is really a little more fluid I'm getting the impression now.

With those of you with experience between the 3333 and 3068, did one produce stronger esters? My local brew shop doesn't carry White Labs, when Northern Brewer ships they usually get here rather quick, maybe in 2 months or so I will retry the White Labs, don't wanna risk dead tubes (nothing against Northern Brewer or White Labs, Wisconsin/Minnesota summers are like a sauna). Any of the dry yeasts give good results in this regard?

 

[beersk]

Stick with 3068 for the banana esters, ferment it in the uppers 60s. I'm working on getting more banana esters in my hefeweizens as well. I made a really good extract hefe a couple years ago with 3068, but my all grain versions are slightly lacking, although still delicious.
I'm working on a series of hefes with WLP300 right now, which is supposedly the same strain as the 3068. But the last hefe I made with it was a lot more clove-y than banana-y. So I'm fermenting one now at around 70F, slightly underpitched the slurry from the last hefe, and only gave it about 30 seconds of O2. We'll see...

 

[ArkotRamathorn]

Stick with 3068 for the banana esters, ferment it in the uppers 60s. I'm working on getting more banana esters in my hefeweizens as well. I made a really good extract hefe a couple years ago with 3068, but my all grain versions are slightly lacking, although still delicious.
I'm working on a series of hefes with WLP300 right now, which is supposedly the same strain as the 3068. But the last hefe I made with it was a lot more clove-y than banana-y. So I'm fermenting one now at around 70F, slightly underpitched the slurry from the last hefe, and only gave it about 30 seconds of O2. We'll see...

Since I purchased a turkey fryer/propane burner combo the pot I have a has a spout. I usually position this over the bucket/carboy and open this up and let it free fall into the fermenter. Does dumping vs. free falling from a spigot have a significant effect on oxygenation? I'm too cheap to purchase a sintered stone/oxygen tank to start O2'ing my beer.

 

[beersk]

Dumping probably introduces more into the wort. You could get one of those in-line aerator dealies.
http://www.northernbrewer.com/shop/siphon-sprayer.html

 

[Smellyglove]

I'm currently "researching" this myself. I'm on the third brew on the same recipe. I'm using WLP300 though.

#1. 10PPM o2 (according to Zainasheff & White), pitched stirred starter according to Kai Troesters forulma on yeastcalculator.com. Fermented flat @ 19C

#2 Slurry from #1. Overpitch. 10PPM o2. Fermenting flat @ 17C

#3 Slurry from #1 (This and #2 got equal amount of slurry, so also overpitch). 10ppm o2. Pitched @21C, free rise to 23,5-24ish, engaged temp-control to keep stable @22C for rest of fermentation

#2 and #3 are about 5-6 days into fermentaion.

#1 was the best so far, but could have had some more banana comparing to a Paulaner
#2 has close to no banana at all
#3 has more banana than #2, but less than #1 also more sulphur/fart than #1 and #2 at this stage. It might be that the fart is masking the banana.

#2 and #3 are just halfway into fermentation, but I compared to #1 at the same stage. I'll see what happens by the end of the week. I didn't get much more banana out of #1 after this far into fermentation ( I taste once a day/ every other day)

 

[shtoive87]

Jamil claims lower fermentation temps increase the banana eaters in hefeweizen yeasts... Kind of counter-intuitive, but yeast and esters are mysterious that way.


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[beersk]

Jamil claims lower fermentation temps increase the banana eaters in hefeweizen yeasts... Kind of counter-intuitive, but yeast and esters are mysterious that way.


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Is that what he's claiming? I was assuming he preferred the clove-y hefeweizens more so he suggests the lower fermentation temps.

 

[shtoive87]

In one of his podcasts (I believe it was a recent Brew Strong) he said lower ferm temps enhance banana esters. He might mention it in his hefeweizen episode in the earlier Jamil show podcasts.


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[Smellyglove]

It's also a function of pitching rate. A lower pitching rate will produce more esters.

The last experiment I kegged was done with two overpitched fermentors at different temps. The one sitting flat at 17C had almost no banana, the one with a free rise up to 24C and kept at 22C after initial fermentation had a lot more banana, but barely more than the first brew I did which had pithcing rate according to Kai Troester at yeastcalculator.com, which sat flat at 19C.

 

[grathan]

I've never achieved bananas, but I would try lowering to 62 as Jamil suggest with 3068, but also try slightly higher one time as well 73 or greater. I would also cut back on aerating. There is a specific acid rest that helps as well I've read, but don't remember the temp.

Also I would try an Ayinger clone recipe, perhaps some of the other ingredients are supporting the flavor.

 

[milldoggy]

I also think a mash rest at 112 does something. It currents something that helps with bannana. Would have to look it up.

 

[ArkotRamathorn]

Now I am looking at a blue moon extract clone I made for my dad with WB-06.

6.6# Wheat Malt Extract in 5 gallons of water, pitched the packet of WB-06 dry, threw it right in and the wort was still very warm (maybe 85ish). Took a sample of this and I am getting a ton of banana esters from this.

I hate you yeast and German beers with your delicious and elusive banana esters.

 

[ArcaneXor]

70% German Pale Red Wheat to 30% pale barley malts (German or Bohemian Pils, maybe a little Vienna). A touch of a roasted malt like chocolate or roasted Barley is common (<1% of the grist).

A small dose of lactic acid or acidulated malt reportedly helps develop more fruity esters via ethyl lactate formation (but I could have that wrong). I do mean small, you don't want to make a sour beer!

Do a 10-minute ferulic acid rest at 113 degrees to start the mash (this will produce a nice background clove character that is not overwhelming) before stepping up to a sacch temp of around 154 and an optional mash-out at 168.

Aerate with pure O2 for about 90 seconds. Ferment with WLP 300 at 63ish degrees, begin to ramp as fermentation approaches terminal gravity.

Bananarama.

 

[hater]

I've been fermenting my all grain Hefeweizen using 3068 at a constant 71 degrees intentionally to bring out banana and they have been producing an awesome banana flavor. Using a basic single infusion at 153

On my 1st generation of washed 3068 at the moment and it tastes as great with just as much banana flavor as the original wyeast packet.

 

[Smellyglove]

A maltase mash-step will supposedly bring out the Hefe esters and phenols. Never tried it myself but I'll do it in my next Hefe.

 

[govner1]

I've never achieved bananas, but I would try lowering to 62 as Jamil suggest with 3068, but also try slightly higher one time as well 73 or greater. I would also cut back on aerating. There is a specific acid rest that helps as well I've read, but don't remember the temp.

Also I would try an Ayinger clone recipe, perhaps some of the other ingredients are supporting the flavor.

The Wyeast site says to use higher temps to increase esters and lower temps will enhance the clove flavor.


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[shoreman]

Jamil claims lower fermentation temps increase the banana eaters in hefeweizen yeasts... Kind of counter-intuitive, but yeast and esters are mysterious that way.


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After reading this in his book, I started making my hefes in the late winter/spring as my basement is cooler- made such a difference in the banana and clove.

 

[JonM]

Banana/clove are largely a product of pitching rate and fermentation temperature. A couple weeks ago, I made Jamil's recipe from BYO, and it is freakin' fabulous. Banana is present, and clove shines as the beer warms up, and none of it is enough to overwhelm the flavor of the pilsner and the wheat.

IMO, the reason it's so good is because of Jamil's trial and error and his figuring out the ideal pitch rate and temperature. 1.049 wort with a 1.3 L starter, ferment at 62.

His article describing the process is a really good read.

https://byo.com/stories/issue/item/2265-german-hefeweizen-style-profile

 

[shapptastic]

My best hefe's have come about as a result of two things:

1. underpitching
2. single decoction mash

1. underpitching 3068( I make maybe a 0.5L starter or just pitch the smack pack) and get loads of banana. for a dunkelweizen that I wanted to tone down, I bumped it to 1L and kept the temp in low 60s.

2. doing a decoction mash caramelized the wort and gave the beer more body. a problem with my first Hefe attempts were that they were too thin.


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