Looking for Lager brewing experts

[flagman]

Well I have searched the web, books and here to try and figure out what is the proper pitch rate for pitching yeast at lager temps. I cant find an equation, rule of thumb ect. any where.

I have been making a 2 litre starter using a Wyeast Activator smack pack and letting it set on a stir plate for 12-18 hours before pitching at 65F, wait till I see active fermentation and then move to the lager chest to cool down to 48-50F. I have not had any issues with doing it this way but would like to pitch cold to see the difference.

On MRmalty website it says that a wyeast Activator pack pitched into 1 litre starter will yeild 150 Billion Yeast cells in 12-18 hours, 2 litre will yeild 200 billion and a 1 litre pitched into 4 litres will yield roughly 400 billion cells.

Using beersmith the yeast calcualtor says I need 258 Billion cells for the beer that I am going to brew so what would I need to come up with for a cold pitch?

I dont really like the idea of pitching 5 litres of light DME starter into my beer so I was thinking I would make a 1 litre starter 12-18 hours prior to brewing. Then I will brew as usual. After cooling wort to 65F I will take 4 litres and pitch the one litre starter into it and move both the starter and the wort to the cabinet to cool to 48F for 12-18 hours and then pitch the 5 litres into the wort?

Will this work?
Is it sufficiant yeast cells for a cold pitch? or to much?
What are all you other cold pitchers doing?

Any help would be appreciated,

Thanks

 

[bh10]

Personally I think Mr. Malty likes to over pitch. I do 2 liter starters on my Lagers and never have not had a beer take off in less than 12hrs, which includeds a 1.070 5.5 gal dopplebock, granted I use oxygen for a 1 minute, my starter on a stir plate, which all help. But I let it take off cool in fridge decant about 3/4 of the wort and pitch.

I try to pitch at 55º or so, and dont do anything different than what I do if Id pitch at room temp.

 

[Airborneguy]

I agree that Mr. malty is a little overly cautious. I just had a Vienna ferment out in 5 days, which is too fast for my comfort. This was with a 2L starter. Next time, I will go smaller.

 

[bh10]

I agree that Mr. malty is a little overly cautious. I just had a Vienna ferment out in 5 days, which is too fast for my comfort. This was with a 2L starter. Next time, I will go smaller.

What yeast were you using, I use 833 for everything and it normally takes 10-12 days on average to finish?

 

[Airborneguy]

Wyeast Bohemian Lager. I've never had it go that fast and won't be making a large starter again.

 

[dstar26t]

Rule of thumb for pitching a Lager cold is 1.5 million cells/mL/ºP.

For example:

1.053 OG = 13 ºP
5 gallons = 18,927 mL

So,

1,500,000 cells X 18,927 mL X 13 ºP = 369 Billion cells needed.

 

[flagman]

Personally I think Mr. Malty likes to over pitch. I do 2 liter starters on my Lagers and never have not had a beer take off in less than 12hrs, which includeds a 1.070 5.5 gal dopplebock, granted I use oxygen for a 1 minute, my starter on a stir plate, which all help. But I let it take off cool in fridge decant about 3/4 of the wort and pitch.

I try to pitch at 55º or so, and dont do anything different than what I do if Id pitch at room temp.

I will lower my temp to 55F instead of 65F and try that once. I use a stir plate everytime and my beers ususally go off pretty quick. I have not been decanting the wort before pitching, do you let the fermentation complete and settle before you pitch? I have been pitching the entire contents of the starter.

While I have your attention review my process, all I know about lager brewing I have gathered from bits and pieces over time to come up with how I do it. If I can do it better or more efficiently then I would love to know how to do it better. There is a ton more informaion about ales then there lagers.

I have been making a two litre starter and giving it 12 -18 hours on a stir plate. I brew then pitch the complete contents of the starter at 65F wait till I can see visible signs of fermentation. Move it to freezer and cool down to 48-50F. I am going to try 55F this time. I leave it for 3 weeks, it has been finishing in about 10-12 days. I then let it warm back up to 65F and leave it 48 hours. I then rack to an other carboy and put it backin the freezer and start lowering the temp by 3 degrees every day till I get to 35F. Then I leave it for 3 weeks at 35F. Rack off to keg and carb/mature for two weeks at serving pressure. Drink up.

What would you do different?

Thanks

 

[dstar26t]

I make a 1.5 Million cells/mL/ºP starter, let it finish and then chill it for 2-3 days.
At the end of the boil, chill the wort from boiling to 6ºC or lower by pumping through a heat exchanger.
Put in fermentation freezer for 8-16 hours (overnight) to settle cold break while holding it at 6ºC.
Remove cold break.
Oxygenate to 12+ ppm (90 seconds minimum @ 3 Lpm for 11 gallons).
Decant starter that is now at the same temp as the wort.
Hold at 7ºC for 24 hours and then let increase to 9ºC.
Towards the end of visible fermentation, spund to 10 psi and let rise 14ºC, hold for 5 days.
Chill 1ºC every 12 hrs down to 1ºC (been speeding this up lately).
Transfer to Lager vessel and harvest yeast.
Lager for 4 weeks minimum and supplement carbonation with force carbonating.

 

[bh10]

I will lower my temp to 55F instead of 65F and try that once. I use a stir plate everytime and my beers ususally go off pretty quick. I have not been decanting the wort before pitching, do you let the fermentation complete and settle before you pitch? I have been pitching the entire contents of the starter.

While I have your attention review my process, all I know about lager brewing I have gathered from bits and pieces over time to come up with how I do it. If I can do it better or more efficiently then I would love to know how to do it better. There is a ton more informaion about ales then there lagers.

I have been making a two litre starter and giving it 12 -18 hours on a stir plate. I brew then pitch the complete contents of the starter at 65F wait till I can see visible signs of fermentation. Move it to freezer and cool down to 48-50F. I am going to try 55F this time. I leave it for 3 weeks, it has been finishing in about 10-12 days. I then let it warm back up to 65F and leave it 48 hours. I then rack to an other carboy and put it backin the freezer and start lowering the temp by 3 degrees every day till I get to 35F. Then I leave it for 3 weeks at 35F. Rack off to keg and carb/mature for two weeks at serving pressure. Drink up.

What would you do different?

Thanks

I give it more time on the stir plate like 24-36hrs, lager yeast arent the fastest to start.

Personally Id also, cool your wort down to fermentation temp before pitching the lager. I ferment at 50º, the reason I pitch at 55º is b/c I cant get it cooler than that chilling from the BK to fermentor, but thats also within the temp range of the yeast I use.

Only other thing, once I transfer the beer into a keg or secondary to lager, I dont worry about a big quick temp drop, IMO the yeast has done its job, and youve rack it off the yeast, just go head and drop the temp quick. I go from 68º (diacetyl rest) to lager temp 33º in about 4-5 hrs in my lagering chamber, and Ive never had a problem with any off flavors doing that. And it saves some labor.

 

[flagman]

Thanks for the replies, the yeast I have been using is 48-58F so at 55F i should be fine. I will give it more time on the stir plate from on.