Yeast Cake Size

[ninkwood]

I'm currently fermenting my first all grain batch, and I'm really surprised by the size of the yeast cake in my fermenter. Along with the hops I left in after a hopstand, I'm quickly approaching 5 of the 11 litre batch size in sludge!

My question is what did I do wrong here - or is it just a fact of life with certain yeast strains? I boiled off a little more than I intended and therefore my og is a bit higher than intended as well, but I'm stuck making ~14L batches for the time being. Was hoping to get more than 6 litres of beer out of this batch however!

Notes:

Brewed on Saturday January 6th (5 days in primary)
OG: 1.074
Batch size was a little over 11L (took a gravity reading, currently sitting at 1.025 using a hydrometer
Yeast is foggy London ale by escarpment labs. I pitched one pouch, they don't list cell count that I can see but i definitely pitched more than was necessary for this batch size based on the 1 pouch per 5 gallon guideline.

Grainbill: 70% 2-row, 18% flaked oats, 7% flaked wheat, 5% lactose

Thank you all for your help!

 

[redrocker652002]

I cannot add much other than, the last few brews I have done I noticed a really thick mass formed on the bottom of the fermenter, but once the yeast started going, that mass started to get eaten away. It was cool to watch, and to be honest, I had never seen it before. So, maybe that is what you have there? Just throwing it out there just in case.

 

[huckdavidson]

Mostly likely not a solid cake of yeast, instead the yeast is clinging to the sides of the fermenter at that height, as it falls out of suspension.

 

[fluketamer]

thick cake () could be retained hop matter, or protein from not getting a good cold break or just a lot of yeast cells adding to the above.
i think you are fine

 

[hotbeer]

It hasn't had time to pack down. If you'd waited longer it'd probably get a little more compacted and you'd get more beer out. Instead the somewhat fluffy layer has a lot of beer in it.

 

[ninkwood]

Thanks for all the perspectives! I never considered that maybe the trub is piling up on the sides, I hope that is it! Primary fermentation seems complete, I didn't get a crazy amount of krausen on this batch but since the gravity is nearing expected fg of around 1.022 (High, I know...) I suspect it went fine.

I cannot add much other than, the last few brews I have done I noticed a really thick mass formed on the bottom of the fermenter, but once the yeast started going, that mass started to get eaten away. It was cool to watch, and to be honest, I had never seen it before. So, maybe that is what you have there? Just throwing it out there just in case.

I'm also curious about this - whether or not the cake will "compact" more over time, or if it will condense/be consumed in some other manner. I just thought I'd share in case I made a big mistake I am not seeing...

 

[ninkwood]

It hasn't had time to pack down. If you'd waited longer it'd probably get a little more compacted and you'd get more beer out. Instead the somewhat fluffy layer has a lot of beer in it.

nice, okay this is what I was hoping for!

I'm not planning to bottle anytime soon, I'll give it a minimum of 14 days in the fermenter and then I'll either bottle it or stick the whole thing in my near freezing garage with some added CO2 and start drinking it a few days later

 

[ninkwood]

I should probably add that the fermenter is still sitting at 20c/68f, I have not cold crashed yet. I am also fermenting with ~3psi on a spunding valve.

 

[IslandLizard]

Brewed on Saturday January 6th (5 days in primary)
OG: 1.074
Batch size was a little over 11L (took a gravity reading, currently sitting at 1.025 using a hydrometer

That beer is not done yet, I'd give it 2-3 weeks before even considering packaging it.
I see a heating pad. Make sure to keep the temps constant, even a 3-5 degree temp drop, such as overnight, can stall a fermentation.

Primary fermentation seems complete,

It's all primary fermentation, unless you add new fermentables (fruit or such) at some later point. Then you could call that secondary fermentation.

 

[ninkwood]

Make sure to keep the temps constant, even a 3-5 degree temp drop, such as overnight, can stall a fermentation.

Hmm this could be a problem, I'm guessing you're citing °F here?

I pitched at around 18c/65f, it naturally rose without any heat to 21c/70f, then started dropping (at which point I added the heat mat). It's gone as low as 19c/66f and since then has bounced between that and 20c/68f. This is about the best I can do without building a fermentation chamber, which I'm contemplating but I'll probably just buy a fridge instead. TBD in the next month or so.

It's all primary fermentation, unless you add new fermentables (fruit or such) at some later point. Then you could call that secondary fermentation.

My bad, I was referring to the rapid stage with krausen.

I don't intend to bottle anytime soon, I was just concerned by the amount of trub. It's all learning for right now anyway so all good, just want to make sure if I am making mistakes I'm not repeating them with each batch!

 

[IslandLizard]

Hmm this could be a problem, I'm guessing you're citing °F here?

Yes, °F.
A similar 3-5 degrees drop in C may cause it to stall too.

It depends on a few factors whether she stalled or not. And it's always best to prevent it from happening, as resuscitation can be difficult.
Try heating it up somewhat to around 68-70F. It's a good temp to let her finish out (and conditioning) that way for a week (or 2). Try to keep it steady at that temp. Wrap some blankets or a sleeping bag around her.

In addition, you could rouse the yeast and resuspend the cake by gently swirling the fermenter. There may be some heavy foaming, but it will settle down. Especially since you're keeping it under 3 psi pressure, there won't be any chance air (oxygen) can enter from the outside, and potentially ruin your beer.

I'm not all that familiar with All-Rounders, and have no clue why the yeast settles along the bottom curve of the dome, rather than in a flat cake (more in the center).

 

[Climb]

I agree. Rouse the yeast and warm it up as stated. From the picture, the darker green at the bottom looks like hop mater, then yeast and trub. If there is still a lot of yeast and the cake hasn't solidified after packaging, poor the remaining contents of the fermenter into a growler or two and store it in the fridge until the yeast compacts. At this point there should be a nice layer of beer on top. Drink it or cook with it.

 

[hotbeer]

I do about 2.5 - 2.6 gallon batches (about 10 litres) inside the heated space of my home where the ambient air temps are very stable. The smells coming from the fermenter are seldom bad or even noticeable unless you are in the same room.

If you are keeping your FV in a unheated space you might consider moving it inside or do the next one inside to see if you or others complain about smells. My home stays about 20°C (68-69°F) inside which is ideal for the type of ales I tend to brew. So I seldom am concerned about having to keep the FV warm or cool.

 

[McMullan]

Does this ‘foggy’ yeast strain produce a massive yeast head? Just wondering why there’s noticeable fermentation ‘film’ high up on the wall of your FV, way above the lower ‘tide mark’. Looks like a yeast cake, in situ, has been used to ferment another, bigger, batch.

Edit: actually, on closer inspection, it just looks like hop debris. Where’s the fermentation ‘tide mark’? Is there something weird about this yeast strain? All brewer’s yeast have an array of different adhesin molecules on the cell surface and stick to pretty much everything. Always leaving a ‘tide mark’ of some kind on an FV inner wall regardless. Looks a bit weird to me.

 

[ninkwood]

I do about 2.5 - 2.6 gallon batches (about 10 litres) inside the heated space of my home where the ambient air temps are very stable. The smells coming from the fermenter are seldom bad or even noticeable unless you are in the same room.

If you are keeping your FV in a unheated space you might consider moving it inside or do the next one inside to see if you or others complain about smells. My home stays about 20°C (68-69°F) inside which is ideal for the type of ales I tend to brew. So I seldom am concerned about having to keep the FV warm or cool.

I'm also brewing inside, in a heated room. Room temp is probably somewhere around 66f at the moment, but the fv is in the closet of a spare bedroom with a heat pad under it and a probe thermometer inside a thermowell, so I don't think temp is too big of an issue here. It's bounced around by a few degrees with the day/night cycle but no more than 2-3*f, and it's currently sitting at 70*f.

Does this ‘foggy’ yeast strain produce a massive yeast head? Just wondering why there’s noticeable fermentation ‘film’ high up on the wall of your FV, way above the lower ‘tide mark’. Looks like a yeast cake, in situ, has been used to ferment another, bigger, batch.

Edit: actually, on closer inspection, it just looks like hop debris. Where’s the fermentation ‘tide mark’? Is there something weird about this yeast strain?

Yes - the speculation is correct, the bottom litre or so is hop debris. I didn't want to mess around with dryhopping quite yet so I decided to do a hop stand at 180f for 20 min during cooling and left the hops in hoping this would add a bit more flavour. The yeast cake is above that and still growing!

The mess on the walls is from the hop debris as I shook the living heck out of the wort to aerate. There is no "high krausen" line on this batch which I also felt was strange. I got maybe 1/2" of crud on the top during peak activity and then it started to fall. Definitely unusual from what I've seen in my limited experience. So I'm not sure if it's just the yeast strain or if it's something else.

I was told by my LHBS that this foggy London ale yeast by escarpment is equivalent to WLP066 if any of you have experience with that strain it might be the same?

Question: would cold crashing in the fermenter help condense the yeast? If so, I might do that prior to bottling.

 

[McMullan]

I'm also brewing inside, in a heated room. Room temp is probably somewhere around 66f at the moment, but the fv is in the closet of a spare bedroom with a heat pad under it and a probe thermometer inside a thermowell, so I don't think temp is too big of an issue here. It's bounced around by a few degrees with the day/night cycle but no more than 2-3*f, and it's currently sitting at 70*f.

Yes - the speculation is correct, the bottom litre or so is hop debris. I didn't want to mess around with dryhopping quite yet so I decided to do a hop stand at 180f for 20 min during cooling and left the hops in hoping this would add a bit more flavour. The yeast cake is above that and still growing!

The mess on the walls is from the hop debris as I shook the living heck out of the wort to aerate. There is no "high krausen" line on this batch which I also felt was strange. I got maybe 1/2" of crud on the top during peak activity and then it started to fall. Definitely unusual from what I've seen in my limited experience. So I'm not sure if it's just the yeast strain or if it's something else.

I was told by my LHBS that this foggy London ale yeast by escarpment is equivalent to WLP066 if any of you have experience with that strain it might be the same?

Question: would cold crashing in the fermenter help condense the yeast? If so, I might do that prior to bottling.

A yeast that breaks the laws of physics then? I’ve never seen anything like it. And I’m not sure if I want to, to be honest. I haven’t used any yeast from ‘escarpment’. Read a few of their publications. That was more than enough, for me. Cooling might help. Otherwise rack off the yeast ‘cake’ and continue cooling. Maybe with some gelatine. Fish-based preferably.

 

[hotbeer]

Question: would cold crashing in the fermenter help condense the yeast? If so, I might do that prior to bottling.

Just leaving it in the fermenter till the beer on top is as clear and clean as you want it to be when you drink it is all you have to do, IMO. That might be 10 days for me, or it has been as long as 6 weeks.

Cold crashing is an option, but even then you still many times have to wait days for the stuff suspended to fall out. And since I've seen my beers in the FV go from very cloudy and murky to very clean and bright in a days time, I wonder if cold crashing is really all it's cracked up to be. As well, I see a lot of murky glasses being offered of beers that were supposedly cold crashed.

Another IMO, beer won't be harmed by leaving it too long in the FV. On the opposite side of that, your beer might be crappy if rushed out of the fermenter by some belief that when fermentation is over it's ready.

And FYI, dry yeast is available in about as many different types as liquid yeast. It's cheaper, easier to store and can be kept longer at near full viability. And it doesn't need the wort to be aerated. So you might consider it. I myself have never use liquid yeast. I wouldn't enjoy all the fiddly stuff you have to do to get a correct pitch if my yeast was old.

 

[ninkwood]

A yeast that breaks the laws of physics then? I’ve never seen anything like it. And I’m not sure if I want to, to be honest. I haven’t used any yeast from ‘escarpment’. Read a few of their publications. That was more than enough, for me. Cooling might help. Otherwise rack off the yeast ‘cake’ and continue cooling. Maybe with some gelatine. Fish-based preferably.

They (escarpment) look that bad eh? I don't know what to tell you, I'm confused too hence coming here looking for some answers!

 

[ninkwood]

Just leaving it in the fermenter till the beer on top is as clear and clean as you want it to be when you drink it is all you have to do, IMO. That might be 10 days for me, or it has been as long as 6 weeks.

Cold crashing is an option, but even then you still many times have to wait days for the stuff suspended to fall out. And since I've seen my beers in the FV go from very cloudy and murky to very clean and bright in a days time, I wonder if cold crashing is really all it's cracked up to be. As well, I see a lot of murky glasses being offered of beers that were supposedly cold crashed.

Another IMO, beer won't be harmed by leaving it too long in the FV. On the opposite side of that, your beer might be crappy if rushed out of the fermenter by some belief that when fermentation is over it's ready.

And FYI, dry yeast is available in about as many different types as liquid yeast. It's cheaper, easier to store and can be kept longer at near full viability. And it doesn't need the wort to be aerated. So you might consider it. I myself have never use liquid yeast. I wouldn't enjoy all the fiddly stuff you have to do to get a correct pitch in my yeast was old.

Yeah, nothing against dry yeast here - I just wanted to get the "best strain I could" for this beer and this was it. I didn't realize it was that much fussier than dry. I aerated (shook) for about 60 seconds and pitched a full pouch meant for 5 gallons, but the pouch was about 6 weeks from expiring. So if liquid yeast is that fussy, then that's probably where my issues started...

I think I'll take your advice and stick with dry for the next few batches. Getting reputable liquid (wyeast) strains is expensive as I'd have to order online. It's about -30 across Canada right now so probably don't need the refrigeration sleeve but then I'd be introducing more potential problems. Like you said, not worth it especially when idk what I'm doing yet!

 

[McMullan]

They (escarpment) look that bad eh? I don't know what to tell you, I'm confused too hence coming here looking for some answers!

Regardless, brewer’s yeast don’t behave like that. Either they produced a duff batch or, tinkering where they shouldn’t, engineered a duff strain. Either way, not my ‘cup of tea’.

 

[mac_1103]

I must have missed something. What law of physics is being violated?

 

[ninkwood]

Regardless, brewer’s yeast don’t behave like that. Either they produced a duff batch or, tinkering where they shouldn’t, engineered a duff strain. Either way, not my ‘cup of tea’.

Hmmm perhaps I should share my results with Escapement, see what they say

I agree. Rouse the yeast and warm it up as stated. From the picture, the darker green at the bottom looks like hop mater, then yeast and trub. If there is still a lot of yeast and the cake hasn't solidified after packaging, poor the remaining contents of the fermenter into a growler or two and store it in the fridge until the yeast compacts. At this point there should be a nice layer of beer on top. Drink it or cook with it.

I decided to do this afterall. I figure I don't have anything to lose here anyways, so I gave it a good swirl aerating as little as possible with ~3 psi still on the spunding valve, then I moved the heat pad so that it's making contact with the fv to help transfer heat better and wrapped it in towels. I also bumped the temp up to 21c/70f help restart things if Infact fermentation has stalled. I'm only about 5 points away from expected fg though

 

[McMullan]

Hmmm perhaps I should share my results with Escapement, see what they say

But what if they reply “Please don’t share your unfortunate experience with the public, especially the astute home-brew community ”? Let us know what they claim.

 

[mac_1103]

But what if they reply “Please don’t share your unfortunate experience with the public, especially the astute home-brew community ”?

I think the appropriate response to that would be "Well, what's that worth to you?"

 

[IslandLizard]

Hmmm perhaps I should share my results with Escapement, see what they say

You could, but since we haven't seen the bottom of the case exact volume of the yeast/trub layer, I wouldn't blame anything on the yeast (yet). What we see is a good sediment of good healthy yeast, maybe a little more spread out over the bottom than we're used to.

From what I've read, the inside of those All Rounders is quite slick, so it's a bit puzzling how that yeast clings to it.
On the other side, I doubt there's indeed 4 liters of packed yeast slurry in there. If it were, heck, you made money, you can harvest all that yeast, enough for 10+ more brews!

We can see some hops on the bottom, but how much other trub do you think was transferred to the fermenter?

 

[ninkwood]

From what I've read, the inside of those All Rounders is quite slick, so it's a bit puzzling how that yeast clings to it.
On the other side, I doubt there's indeed 4 liters of packed yeast slurry in there. If it were, heck, you made money, you can harvest all that yeast, enough for 10+ more brews!

Great point! If the beer isn't s*it maybe I'll harvest some...

We can see some hops on the bottom, but how much other trub do you think was transferred to the fermenter?

Not much else I don't think, I did a biab and that seemed to do a good job filtering out all the grain material. I also left the sludge (hops) in the bottom of the kettle, so only some of the hop debris made it in.

As far as what else comes out of suspension over time, you'd know better than I do there. This batch was my first time using an IC and boy was it an improvement! With our fridged Canadian ground water and high water pressure, I cooled this small batch to pitch temp in about 4 min!

 

[IslandLizard]

Not much else I don't think, I did a biab and that seemed to do a good job filtering out all the grain material. I also left the sludge (hops) in the bottom of the kettle, so only some of the hop debris made it in.

That seems to point at the yeast being spread out over the whole bottom section, including up the slope. Some yeasts can be very sticky!

 

[McMullan]

You’ve probably just managed to capture a stage early in an ongoing process then panicked about it, to be honest. It’s likely to compact down overnight or so. If not, the yeast are funny, if it is yeast. Still weird there’s no sign of a krausen ‘tide mark’, though.

 

[ninkwood]

You’ve probably just managed to capture a stage early in an ongoing process then panicked about it, to be honest. It’s likely to compact down overnight or so. If not, the yeast are funny, if it is yeast. Still weird there’s no sign of a krausen ‘tide mark’, though.

It definitely had not started to compact down, in fact since the photo was shared it's taken up past the 5L mark and was about ⅓ the way to 6L! That's when I gave it a rouse as mentioned above.

What else could it be? You're thinking it could be some kind of infection?

For what it's worth, I gave it a taste after ~4 days when I took the gravity reading (1.025-1.026) and it had a strong off-putting after taste that I cannot put my finger on. It reminded me of the flavor of certain lagers that I don't enjoy. Not repulsive by any means but just not something I'd enjoy. I figured that was nothing to be concerned about as it was only 4 days old and far too soon but maybe another clue?

 

[bestbuds]

I'm a rep of Escarpment Labs (founder) and was asked to provide some help here.

I started my career in beer as a homebrewer (with the homebrewtalk account to prove it) and I remember having many questions about yeast behaviour and wondering whether what I was seeing was correct.

I'll break down what I know about your batch and provide my thoughts and suggestions.

1 pack of Foggy London Ale Yeast 6 weeks from expiration was pitched into 11L of OG 1.074 (5% lactose), has reached 1.025 after 4 days

When you factor in the lactose (unfermentable) and that this is a NEIPA, this is what I would expect in terms of attenuation. The attenuation rate indicates the yeast likely got enough oxygen/nutrients to get the job done. This sounds quite normal to me.

Fermentor appears to have a capacity of more than 20L (5 gallons) and is made of plastic and uses a spunding valve set to 3 psi. The yeast cake appears larger than expected.

There are multiple possibilities to consider:
1. Yeast is sticking to the walls of the sloped bottom of the fermentor. Note that yeast will adhere differently to plastic than to glass or metal. One of the commenters talked about adhesins which are molecules on the outside of the yeast cell that help it stick to other cells or surfaces. While plastic may be smooth, it may be possible the yeast adheres better to this plastic than to other surfaces.
2. High aeration level, high pitching rate, and large headspace favoured yeast propagation. I personally wouldn't run a fermentation with so much headspace, especially if it's a hoppy beer. Even if you've got a spunding valve, the early stages of the fermentation will involve the yeast absorbing oxygen from the wort and then the wort absorbing some oxygen from the headspace, so more headspace means the yeast had more access to oxygen. Oxygen favours yeast cell growth, so you may have gotten higher than expected cell growth.

First all-grain brew

I know my first all grain brews had pretty high levels of trub, since I wasn't very experienced with sparging/lautering and getting a good trub separation. It is possible this batch has a high level of trub. This would also lead to enhanced yeast growth. In my experience, yeast + a high level of trub will produce a very "fluffy" aggregate that takes a longer time to settle, which sounds similar to what you are seeing.

No high krausen line on the batch

My assumption is that this is due to fermenting under pressure. Yeast krausen is a partially a result of the yeast cells forming a raft on top of CO2 saturated wort/beer. If the CO2 concentration of the headspace is equalized with the CO2 concentration of the fermentation (as in fermenting under pressure) you will typically observe much less krausen during fermentation.

Beer had an off putting taste at day 4

This is likely diacetyl, which is formed by yeast and then cleaned up, and is normal mid-fermentation. Here's an article on how to test for it: The Forced Diacetyl Test

Overall my suggestions are to leave less headspace, watch trub levels, and check to see if yeast sticks to the fermentor. I also would avoid pressure for the first 3 days of fermentation with any hazy IPA yeast.

 

[ninkwood]

I'm a rep of Escarpment Labs (founder) and was asked to provide some help here.

I started my career in beer as a homebrewer (with the homebrewtalk account to prove it) and I remember having many questions about yeast behaviour and wondering whether what I was seeing was correct.

I'll break down what I know about your batch and provide my thoughts and suggestions.

1 pack of Foggy London Ale Yeast 6 weeks from expiration was pitched into 11L of OG 1.074 (5% lactose), has reached 1.025 after 4 days

When you factor in the lactose (unfermentable) and that this is a NEIPA, this is what I would expect in terms of attenuation. The attenuation rate indicates the yeast likely got enough oxygen/nutrients to get the job done. This sounds quite normal to me.

Fermentor appears to have a capacity of more than 20L (5 gallons) and is made of plastic and uses a spunding valve set to 3 psi. The yeast cake appears larger than expected.

There are multiple possibilities to consider:
1. Yeast is sticking to the walls of the sloped bottom of the fermentor. Note that yeast will adhere differently to plastic than to glass or metal. One of the commenters talked about adhesins which are molecules on the outside of the yeast cell that help it stick to other cells or surfaces. While plastic may be smooth, it may be possible the yeast adheres better to this plastic than to other surfaces.
2. High aeration level, high pitching rate, and large headspace favoured yeast propagation. I personally wouldn't run a fermentation with so much headspace, especially if it's a hoppy beer. Even if you've got a spunding valve, the early stages of the fermentation will involve the yeast absorbing oxygen from the wort and then the wort absorbing some oxygen from the headspace, so more headspace means the yeast had more access to oxygen. Oxygen favours yeast cell growth, so you may have gotten higher than expected cell growth.

First all-grain brew

I know my first all grain brews had pretty high levels of trub, since I wasn't very experienced with sparging/lautering and getting a good trub separation. It is possible this batch has a high level of trub. This would also lead to enhanced yeast growth. In my experience, yeast + a high level of trub will produce a very "fluffy" aggregate that takes a longer time to settle, which sounds similar to what you are seeing.

No high krausen line on the batch

My assumption is that this is due to fermenting under pressure. Yeast krausen is a partially a result of the yeast cells forming a raft on top of CO2 saturated wort/beer. If the CO2 concentration of the headspace is equalized with the CO2 concentration of the fermentation (as in fermenting under pressure) you will typically observe much less krausen during fermentation.

Beer had an off putting taste at day 4

This is likely diacetyl, which is formed by yeast and then cleaned up, and is normal mid-fermentation. Here's an article on how to test for it: The Forced Diacetyl Test

Overall my suggestions are to leave less headspace, watch trub levels, and check to see if yeast sticks to the fermentor. I also would avoid pressure for the first 3 days of fermentation with any hazy IPA yeast

Wow thanks for this amazing response! I can't say I've ever been this impressed by a company's response to an inquiry in any aspect of my life...

I think you're spot on here. For the record I'd love to have brewed more beer but I don't have the hot side setup for that yet. I also didn't want to bother with purchasing a smaller fermenter. I'll live with this aspect for now, and hopefully improve my next batch by enlisting some of these suggestions. I can set my spunding value down to ~0, and perhaps even purge the headspace of oxygen after pitching?

I also wanted to share that "the yeast sticking to the sides" theory seems highly likely at this point. It's only been a few hrs but the new cake is down around the 3 litre mark - nearly half where it was prior to rousing.

I'll be sure to give Escarpment another go as I improve my end of the bargain

Cheers!

 

[redrocker652002]

Wow, now that's impressive for a rep of the company to take the time to post here with what he or she thinks of the situation at hand Very nice indeed!!!

 

[ninkwood]

Wow, now that's impressive for a rep of the company to take the time to post here with what he or she thinks of the situation at hand Very nice indeed!!!

Not just a rep, but founder of the company! I agree, very impressed!

 

[McMullan]

Wow thanks for this amazing response! I can't say I've ever been this impressed by a company's response to an inquiry in any aspect of my life...

I think you're spot on here. For the record I'd love to have brewed more beer but I don't have the hot side setup for that yet. I also didn't want to bother with purchasing a smaller fermenter. I'll live with this aspect for now, and hopefully improve my next batch by enlisting some of these suggestions. I can set my spunding value down to ~0, and perhaps even purge the headspace of oxygen after pitching?

I also wanted to share that "the yeast sticking to the sides" theory seems highly likely at this point. It's only been a few hrs but the new cake is down around the 3 litre mark - nearly half where it was prior to rousing.

I'll be sure to give Escarpment another go as I improve my end of the bargain

Cheers!
View attachment 838897

That looks like it’s starting to flocculate now. Maybe it was just missing some patience. The lack of a krausen ‘tide mark’ still bothers me, though. I still get them when fermenting lager yeast under pressure. It’s possible strains like this ‘foggy’ have been selecting for, or genetically engineered by tinkering with flo genes, to promote hazy-crazy beers. The mechanism being reduced or divergent flocculation behaviour such that yeast settling out of solution are less efficient at clearing the beer of other haze-forming debris. This might explain the apparent lack of a fermentation tide mark too. Note too that, when fermenting under pressure, the yeast cake of some ale strains can expand and rise up if pressure drops in the headspace. So aim to maintain FV headspace pressure when you transfer.

 

[ninkwood]

Honestly I have no real intention of fermenting this particular batch under pressure. I'm doing it mainly to keep o2 out, as I figure having 2-3 psi in the fermenter with a spunding valve makes suck back less likely than an airlock.

I'll be more aware of this with future batches, and set the spunding valve right near 0 for the first few days (or just slap the airlock on instead), then perhaps bump it up to 2-3 psi (or perhaps higher for NEIPAs like this one) using external CO2.

This high order yeast science is way over my head. But what @bestbuds said makes alot of sense re: head space and o2. My first batch brewed right before this one finished sweeter than I liked and when I brewed this batch I thought maybe I didn't shake up enough o2 into the wort. I realized later that the yeast strain I used (t-58) was a poor choice as it didn't have high enough attenuation to get the fg down to where I wanted it. So I think I over compensated with this batch and gave the yeast too much o2 leading to a little excess cell growth (if I understood that correctly).

I think batch #3 will also need to be larger. I'm going to look into different options for making larger batches with my existing hot side equipment so that I can fill more of the head space. And more beer isn't exactly a bad thing!

 

[McMullan]

So I think I over compensated with this batch and gave the yeast too much o2 leading to a little excess cell growth (if I understood that correctly).

Very unlikely. That would risk breaking laws of physics. Yeast growth (biomass production) relies on much more than simply O2. Anyway, it looks like the yeast cake forming in the bottom of your FV is looking more normal now. Just a case of initially capturing a stage early on in an ongoing process. Bias. You’ll get the hang of it soon enough. It’s only beer.

 

[mashdar]

It's 100% a big hollow "bowl" of yeast/trub. I recently did my first batch in an All Rounder and had the same thing happen.

The sediment drifting down at the edges hits the sloped bottom and piles up.

When I transferred the beer, the cake actually seemed smaller than expected. (Likely a trick of geometry and human brains being terrible at estimating volume.)

I suspect there will be a minor impact to transfer clarity, as that high cake will collapse as the beer leaves. And it does make it hard to estimate cake volume!

 

[VikeMan]

I'll be more aware of this with future batches, and set the spunding valve right near 0 for the first few days (or just slap the airlock on instead), then perhaps bump it up to 2-3 psi (or perhaps higher for NEIPAs like this one) using external CO2.

FWIW, I ferment most of my beers, including NEIPAs, with a spunding valve set at about 2 PSIG from start to finish. I've not had any yeast strains struggle with this, as far as I can tell. I use a spunding valve because it will close when the pressure drops, in contrast to an airlock, which doesn't really.

 

[redrocker652002]

I think, and believe me when I say I am a novice at best, that whatever happened you learned something, and that is the reason we do what we do. Learning as you go in this hobby seems to be the norm. I learn something new damn near every batch I do. I am going to enter the foray of fermenting in a keg and maybe even using the CO2 the yeast makes to purge another and dry hop in that. Or use it to purge my serving keg and go from there. Either way, this has been a process I have been interested in for a bit so I might give it a go. You will get it worked out, and really that is the fun of the hobby, learning new stuff. Keep at it, and enjoy the beer.

 

[ninkwood]

I think, and believe me when I say I am a novice at best, that whatever happened you learned something, and that is the reason we do what we do. Learning as you go in this hobby seems to be the norm. I learn something new damn near every batch I do. I am going to enter the foray of fermenting in a keg and maybe even using the CO2 the yeast makes to purge another and dry hop in that. Or use it to purge my serving keg and go from there. Either way, this has been a process I have been interested in for a bit so I might give it a go. You will get it worked out, and really that is the fun of the hobby, learning new stuff. Keep at it, and enjoy the beer.

I could not agree more! My expectation is that I won't make decent beer for many many many batches from this one. But I really enjoy the process, and learning about how something is made really drives my appreciation for it. I've been making pizza for about 20 years, and I'd say I've only been making "good" pizza for the last 3 or 4 of those. It took literally thousands of pizzas before I got it "right" and I still don't know if I'd say I've arrived anywhere. I'm still just a guy on a journey.

And pizza is so much simpler than beer! ~7 ingredients and one main yeast strain. Lol