LiquidFlame's eHERMS Build -need help

[LiquidFlame]

Hello,

I'm on my journey on creating my eHERMS system and I've read a lot of great resources and have gotten a lot of ideas. I'm posting my build to help generate answers and ideas for me and to help any other fellow home brewer. I know with all the knowledgeable people on this forum that I'll be in good hands, so I want to thank everyone in advanced for your input and help. Let the fun begin.

I've taken a lot of ideas from A4J, Tiber_Brew, and Kal. I don't have many specifics yet, but I do know that I will be using 2 5500W elements for the HLT and BK, PID's for monitoring temperatures, 2 March 09 pumps, and Blichmann Therminator for my plate chiller.

Right now I have created my brew rig diagrams (with my awesome MS Paint skills) and would love for people to take a look at them and give me your thoughts. One big thing that sticks out at me is if I really need all those ball valves and if I have them in the right spot.


Step 1: Filling With Water

Step 2: Mash In

Step 3: Mash Out

Step 4: Continuous Sparge

Step 5: Cooling

Step 6: Once Temperature is Reached Add to Fementor

 

[LiquidFlame]

***Reserved for Build Parts***

 

[grandequeso]

I use 3 way ball valves in place of a several of those T fittings. They cost a little bit more but not any differant than buying three separate ball valves.
grandequeso

 

[LiquidFlame]

I've never used a 3 way ball valve. When you open a port is it completely open or can you restrict the flow?

 

[Yooper]

One thing I'd do over if I was starting again is to have a purge valve for priming the pumps. I spend way to much time futzing around with one of my March pumps to get it to prime right. It just didn't occur to me at the time, but one of these days I'm going to do that for my pump on the right side of my stand.

 

[LiquidFlame]

Can you describe what a purge valve is. Thanks

 

[Yooper]

Can you describe what a purge valve is. Thanks

Hmmm. I'll see if I can find a picture. It's just a way to "burp" out the air to avoid cavitation of the pump.

 

[LiquidFlame]

I was just thinking, I don't think I have my chiller setup correctly. Don't I need the pump the output wort through the chiller? Just opening the value won't work will it.

 

[Yooper]

I was just thinking, I don't think I have my chiller setup correctly. Don't I need the pump the output wort through the chiller? Just opening the value won't work will it.

Mine goes BK/pump/chiller/fermenter.

I can't find a picture of the silly valve I'm talking about. I know I've seen them around here, so I must be using the wrong terms to search. When you mount the pump, you put "in" down, so that the air comes up. Some have elbows on the "in" to make that easier. You don't need a ballvalve on the "in" of the pump. Anyway, there is a T- type fitting I've seen to open, to let the air out, and then only wort or water to the pump.

I'd call it a bleeder valve or something.

I have QDs on my hoses to change them around into the HLT/HERMS/BK/Chiller. I don't see that in your drawing, but it makes life easier!

 

[LiquidFlame]

I will be using QDs on all my hoses, but I would like to have everything connected and not have to move any hoses around.

 

[LiquidFlame]

Ok, so I've revised my diagrams and I think I've gotten it pretty nailed down. I've gotten rid of the "S" valve and one SS tee, and I've setup the pump with the plate chiller correctly. Let me know what you guys think, I'd really appreciate your input so I can start making a build list soon.

Step 1: Filling With Water

Step 2: Mash In

Step 3: Mash Out

Step 4: Continuous Sparge

Step 5: Cooling

Step 6: Once Temperature is Reached Add to Fementor

 

[LiquidFlame]

I'm on to the next steps of getting a 240v outlet installed in my garage. I went and looked at my main breaker panel and saw that everything was being used. I have heard of people using "Tandem Breakers" to make room for a new breaker, but I'm a little concerned about this because I also noticed that the main breaker says it's 150A and I’m wondering if I’m going to have enough juice.

I'm a little surprised by this because this house is pretty loaded with electrical equipment and we haven’t has any issue of things tripping. We just bought it last year and the pervious owner fished the basement with a full bar, theater system, two TV’s, kegerator, beverage center, a decent amount of celling lights and a bathroom, and that's just the downstairs.
So I guess my question is what do you guys think, is 150 going to be enough or am I going to have to look at upgrading to 200. Whatever happens, I’m going to be getting an electrician because I feel like I’m way out of my league here.

 

[grandequeso]

You have a 30/40 panel. 30 full size or 40 when you use twin breakers. the bottom 5 spaces on both sides of the panel will accept the twin breakers. you actually have a few in already. your electrician should be able to move a few things around to get you those extra two spaces for your control panel. I highly doubt you need a service upgrade. put an amp meter onto the mains coming into your box. I would be surprised if it ever was higher than 70A with everything you might ever use going at once.

 

[LiquidFlame]

Thanks for the reply, gives me some hope. Time to do some more research and figure out what I want my control panel to have.

 

[Josh1275]

I was in a similar situation with a completely full breaker box. I went with a sub panel, and I feel it was the best choice I've made on my build to date. When the time comes to put in an extra keezer or chiller or whatever I don't have to have my breaker box reconfigured...again... just drop them right in the "made for beer" sub panel. no corners cut, and room to grow.

 

[LiquidFlame]

Good point. Just found out that my friend's step dad is a certified electrician, so I'll be having some conversations with him soon hopefully.

 

[Fritztheelephant]

I could be wrong but I think you may want to reverse the flow through your coil. It appears that you are pumping up from the bottom through the coil. This is going to leave your coil full of wort when you shut the pump off. I have one set up to flow down through the coil.

Unless I'm missing something?

 

[grandequeso]

I don't know what your budget looks like, or if you have a plate chiller already, myself and a couple guys I know use our herms coil as our chiller. I have acess to all the free ice I could ever want at work. About two coolers full is all it takes for me to chill 12 gallons at full throttle. My ground water is way too warm 10 mo out of the year for a cfc.

 

[LiquidFlame]

I could be wrong but I think you may want to reverse the flow through your coil. It appears that you are pumping up from the bottom through the coil. This is going to leave your coil full of wort when you shut the pump off. I have one set up to flow down through the coil.

Unless I'm missing something?

I could be wrong about this, but all the rigs I've seen seem to have the wort flowing from the bottom of the HERMs coil to the top. Can someone verify? As to the coil being full of wort, I would imagine as long as I shut the "M" valve and leave the pump on for a couple of seconds, it would pump out all the wort. Again can someone verify.

I don't know what your budget looks like, or if you have a plate chiller already, myself and a couple guys I know use our herms coil as our chiller. I have acess to all the free ice I could ever want at work. About two coolers full is all it takes for me to chill 12 gallons at full throttle. My ground water is way too warm 10 mo out of the year for a cfc.

Plan on using a plate chiller. Bought a Blichmann Therminator from a guy retiring from brewing for $130

 

[BeerguyNC61]

Is that missing the other set of in & out?

 

[LiquidFlame]

No, I just took a front shot of it.

 

[grandequeso]

Nice. I'm jealous of ya'll and and your cold tap water temps. As to the fellow asking about the direction of the herms coil. Losing wort isn't an issue if you pump your sparge water thru it as you are sparging. Its an incredibly easy way to clean as you brew.

 

[LiquidFlame]

Ok, I've done a lot of research and reading of other builds, and I think for my control panel I'm going to clone kal's. After looking at a bunch of different control panels, I just like his layout and functionality the best. I do plan on making a 50A version so I can do back to back brewing.

Now I haven't spoken with my electrician yet, but what I was planning on doing was making room in the main breaker panel by installing tandem breakers. Then installing a 50A double pole breaker and wiring that to a 60A GFI spa panel. Then having my main power cable coming from my spa panel to my control panel.

What do you guys think? Want to make sure I get my ideas correct before I start talking to an electrician.

 

[kpr121]

I know I got pretty confused figuring out how all of those valves would need to be turned on and off at each step from your sketches. I would seriously look into the three way valves so you minimize the risk of pushing wort/water where you dont want it accidentally. I dont have everything hard plumbed so I am constantly swapping connections during my brew and I still usually manage to somehow leave the MLT out valve open after the mash in, which drains wort back into the HLT. I'd be in all kinds of trouble with your setup. Maybe you are more careful than me though.

As far as the control panel, sounds good. Kal's build is awesome if you got the cash to do it.

 

[LiquidFlame]

Looks like I have an issue with my main circuit panel. I finally was able to find the model number and did some research. Inside it said it was a "QQ Load Center Cat No. Q030M150 Series G1 Box Cat No. Q0B30M150 Main Lugs Only".

I did a search for QQ Load Center which brought me to http://www.schneider-electric.com/site/home/index.cfm/us/. I then did a search on their site for Q030M150 which didn't return any results, but they asked if I meant " qo130m150", so I clicked on the PDF and found that it says that the Max Number of Tandem Circuit Breakers 0!!!

Did I do my research right? Should I really not use any Tandem Breakers?

Looks like I really need to talk to an electrician.

 

[LiquidFlame]

I know I got pretty confused figuring out how all of those valves would need to be turned on and off at each step from your sketches. I would seriously look into the three way valves so you minimize the risk of pushing wort/water where you dont want it accidentally. I dont have everything hard plumbed so I am constantly swapping connections during my brew and I still usually manage to somehow leave the MLT out valve open after the mash in, which drains wort back into the HLT. I'd be in all kinds of trouble with your setup. Maybe you are more careful than me though.

As far as the control panel, sounds good. Kal's build is awesome if you got the cash to do it.

As for the three way valves, I'm actually more afraid to use those, becuase I feel like I'd be more likely to have those in the wrong position. Thanks for the suggestion though.

 

[grandequeso]

You have a 30/40 panel that means. 20 full size spaces or 40 if you use twin or tandem breakers. You already have 4 twin breakers in your box at this time. The breakers and the box are modified so that you can only fit the twin breakers onto the bottom 5 spots of your panel. If you look on the inside of the door of you panel cover there should be a diagram of this.

edit. its 30 full size and the capability of having 40 if using twins.

 

[LiquidFlame]

I'll take a picture of the diagram on my lunch, but when I looked at it, it looked like I couldn't use tandem breakers.

 

[LiquidFlame]

Here's a picture of the wiring diagram inside the main breaker panel.

 

[grandequeso]

From the looks of that diagram you may be right, you may only have a 30 space panel. The tandem or twin breakers that are already installed in your box may have been modified to fit into the spaces that they are in. You have a few choices if your panel won't take more tandem breakers. 1. add a sub panel, 2 cheat the breakers the way someone already has done, in order to add more tandem breakers (not recomended, but hey its already being done that way... ) 3. change your whole panel to a full 42 space or a 30/40 space . (if the enclousure is the same dimensions you could possibly just do a panel gut change to fit a 30/40 buss. The 42 space panel will be a good 6 to 8" taller than the one you have. If you went that route you'd have to change the whole box.