Lambic Discussion Thread

[SeaWatchman]

Wait, so he'll use a year's label for 4-5 years? So a 2009 could be a 2009 or a 2014?

Yep. He doesn't bottle enough to use up an entire label run, so it'll just go until its done. He'll also use 375ml labels for 750m; bottles and vice versa.

 

[SeaWatchman]

Got to try a lot of lambic and gueuze on Saturday night, a few I'd had before but many that were completely new for me. The list:

Some of the specific vintages (didn't catch the Rose de Gambrinus and Bruoscella 1900 Grand Cru vintages):

Fou Foune 2011
LP Kriek 2009
Cuvee des Champions 2004
Saint Lamvinus 2011
3F Oude Geuze 2011
Kriek 100% Lambic Bio 2012
Golden Blend 2011
Geuze 100% Lambic Bio 2012
Saint-Gilloise 2012

Top 5 of the night for me:

1. Armand & Tommy (#1 with a bullet)
2. Lente
3. Zomer
4. Cuvee des Champions
5. Fou Foune

I'd be all over Armand/Tommy at $65 in a bar. That's a steal even to drink onsite. How was the CdC 2004? That was the first batch labeled as such.

 

[stupac2]

Wait, so he'll use a year's label for 4-5 years? So a 2009 could be a 2009 or a 2014?

I'm not sure of the actual ranges, but yes, there's a wide variance. I mean, I've seen 750's with labels that clearly say "375mL" on them. It's a small operation.

 

[JulianB1]

I'd be all over Armand/Tommy at $65 in a bar. That's a steal even to drink onsite. How was the CdC 2004? That was the first batch labeled as such.

I thought it was really excellent and had some nice depth of flavor and complexity, especially compared to the 2012 St-Gilloise which we drank at the same time. That was good but had a slightly off-putting aroma/flavor that someone described well as lawn clippings. It was also a lot more one-note and clean compared to the CdC 2004, with way less funk.

 

[chaggy5]

Excuse my ignorance, but I saw above that Fou Foune was going on sale 9/21. Did this mean on sale at the brewery or secondary markets that I could actually order/find it somewhere?

 

[matedog]

I'm not sure of the actual ranges, but yes, there's a wide variance. I mean, I've seen 750's with labels that clearly say "375mL" on them. It's a small operation.

Haha, that's good for people trying to sell fake vintage lambic.

 

[boogercrack]

Excuse my ignorance, but I saw above that Fou Foune was going on sale 9/21. Did this mean on sale at the brewery or secondary markets that I could actually order/find it somewhere?

speculation on dates it may or may not hit a certain webshop, due to them forcing everyone to close out their orders for the quarter the day before.

already on sale at cantillon, as i understand.

 

[kscaldef]

already on sale at cantillon, as i understand.

Any actual verification of that? There's nothing on their Facebook.

 

[boogercrack]

Any actual verification of that? There's nothing on their Facebook.

just hearsay, sorry.

 

[kscaldef]

Wait, so he'll use a year's label for 4-5 years? So a 2009 could be a 2009 or a 2014?

Yep. He doesn't bottle enough to use up an entire label run, so it'll just go until its done. He'll also use 375ml labels for 750m; bottles and vice versa.

I don't understand how that's even legal... I mean, might as well just slap any label on there. Gueze, Lambik, Kriek, Framboise, who cares!?

 

[matedog]

Any actual verification of that? There's nothing on their Facebook.

Look at the hauls thread, bro.

 

[falc0n26001]

just hearsay, sorry.

Along with LPF and Mamouche. Apparently Mamouche already sold out, however.

 

[SeaWatchman]

I don't understand how that's even legal... I mean, might as well just slap any label on there. Gueze, Lambik, Kriek, Framboise, who cares!?

Because Belgium?

 

[Rowingbrewer1]

Did anyone else get that email from Etre even though they do not currently have anything that they are holding?

I got the email but I know i don't have anything waiting shipment and i logged on and confirmed this

 

[quirkzoo1]

Couldn't there be oxidation issues with opening over-carbed bottles and pouring them back into oak? Unless, I don't understand this explanation.

I am not a lambic brewer but in a regular fermentation of beer most breweries will give the beer a dose of pure oxygenation which encourages yeast reproduction. In this situation the oxygen added during transfer would be minimal, if as others suggested, they took proper precautions. Also, because it is a lambic, Brett is much better at scavenging oxygen than regular brewers yeast. So all that is to say, will there be some additional oxidation due to this process? probably. Will it be enough to taste? maybe. Will it be enough to ruin the beer? probably not. My guess is that they calculated the risk and deemed it to be a risk worth taking vs. over-carbed bottles and possibly bottle bombs.

 

[stupac2]

Did anyone else get that email from Etre even though they do not currently have anything that they are holding?

I got the email but I know i don't have anything waiting shipment and i logged on and confirmed this

I didn't get an e-mail.

 

[mojo1]

I am not a lambic brewer but in a regular fermentation of beer most breweries will give the beer a dose of pure oxygenation which encourages yeast reproduction. In this situation the oxygen added during transfer would be minimal, if as others suggested, they took proper precautions. Also, because it is a lambic, Brett is much better at scavenging oxygen than regular brewers yeast. So all that is to say, will there be some additional oxidation due to this process? probably. Will it be enough to taste? maybe. Will it be enough to ruin the beer? probably not. My guess is that they calculated the risk and deemed it to be a risk worth taking vs. over-carbed bottles and possibly bottle bombs.

I agree, oxygen at the start of fermentation is a good thing, but at this point, I think it could only be detrimental. And yes, brett does function in an aerobic environment, which that might help prevent some cardboard flavors, but at the cost of increased production of acetic acid.

Personally, I would take my chances with over-carbed gueze if the alternative was oxidized or overly acetic gueze, but maybe that option was unsafe. Also, I'm sure they took every precaution they could to prevent introduction of additional oxygen.

Has any other brewer done something similar to this and released the beer before?

EDIT: I guess Armand'Spirit is the closest thing I could think of. But still, I would imagine that opening bottles of over-carbed beer and putting it back in tanks or barrels is pretty much a brewer's nightmare in terms of both the amount of work it takes and quality control.

 

[Rowingbrewer1]

Best part is it will likely be $40/750ml bottle

 

[Rowingbrewer1]

I didn't get an e-mail.

Interesting, I just figured they sent it to everyone

 

[duketheredeemer]

I am not a lambic brewer but in a regular fermentation of beer most breweries will give the beer a dose of pure oxygenation which encourages yeast reproduction. In this situation the oxygen added during transfer would be minimal, if as others suggested, they took proper precautions. Also, because it is a lambic, Brett is much better at scavenging oxygen than regular brewers yeast. So all that is to say, will there be some additional oxidation due to this process? probably. Will it be enough to taste? maybe. Will it be enough to ruin the beer? probably not. My guess is that they calculated the risk and deemed it to be a risk worth taking vs. over-carbed bottles and possibly bottle bombs.

Aerobic acetic acid bacteria are ever-present in lambic wort, however their growth is stymied by a lack of oxygen after the first couple weeks. If you expose lambic wort to a large amount of oxygen, their growth will restart prior to Brett or others being able to remove the oxygen from the system. At that point, the lambic will become excessively acetic, which is known as being "hard". Hard lambic may still be used in blending to achieve a particular taste, but it will likely be unfit for consumption on its own, depending on the level of acetic acid present.

I don't think you'll find excessive oxidation just like with other beers, as the oxygen will be rapidly consumed by all the bugs in the wort, but one of the major by-products of that consumption is a ton of acetic acid. I suspect that they would get more acetic acid production from the transfer from bottle back to barrel, but if they were careful enough to limit the exposure to the air (flushing the barrel, sparging the beer with CO2 or N2, etc.), then the one-time exposure to a little bit of oxygen would probably have considerably less effect than a long-term exposure and the slightly increased levels of acetic acid would be just fine.

 

[SeaWatchman]

Aerobic acetic acid bacteria are ever-present in lambic wort, however their growth is stymied by a lack of oxygen after the first couple weeks. If you expose lambic wort to a large amount of oxygen, their growth will restart prior to Brett or others being able to remove the oxygen from the system. At that point, the lambic will become excessively acetic, which is known as being "hard". Hard lambic may still be used in blending to achieve a particular taste, but it will likely be unfit for consumption on its own, depending on the level of acetic acid present.

I don't think you'll find excessive oxidation just like with other beers, as the oxygen will be rapidly consumed by all the bugs in the wort, but one of the major by-products of that consumption is a ton of acetic acid. I suspect that they would get more acetic acid production from the transfer from bottle back to barrel, but if they were careful enough to limit the exposure to the air (flushing the barrel, sparging the beer with CO2 or N2, etc.), then the one-time exposure to a little bit of oxygen would probably have considerably less effect than a long-term exposure and the slightly increased levels of acetic acid would be just fine.

#forscience

 

[primebeer]

Any actual verification of that? There's nothing on their Facebook.

I was there yesterday and today, it's definitely on sale and there looks like there is plenty more. There's still a whole wall of bottles labeled Fou Foune that have yet to be labeled so I think it might last for a few weeks. Cheers

 

[csano]

What's the story with Hanssens? I see they're blenders, much like Tilquin. Does anyone know how they operate? Whose wort do they obtain/work with?

 

[ASUBeer]

Excuse my ignorance, but I saw above that Fou Foune was going on sale 9/21. Did this mean on sale at the brewery or secondary markets that I could actually order/find it somewhere?

Sorry, the 9/21 date was me making a joke. Since etre boxes/payments are due 9/20, I was saying they'd make people buy whatever regular Geuze/Kriek they had in stock and then drop Fou Foune the day after and start the cycle over again.

Didn't mean to mislead anyone.

 

[bramsdell]

What's the story with Hanssens? I see they're blenders, much like Tilquin. Does anyone know how they operate? Whose wort do they obtain/work with?

1) Hanssens just sucks in general. I would steer clear of all of their line.

2) Or, they're now the best available gueuze around me.

Please choose option 1.

 

[SeaWatchman]

What's the story with Hanssens? I see they're blenders, much like Tilquin. Does anyone know how they operate? Whose wort do they obtain/work with?

Currently Girardin, Lindemans, and Boon (Boon starting in 1990-91). Previous generations used wort from Van Haelen in Beersel (closed in 1957), Van Haelen-Coche in Uccle (closed in 1968), La Fleur d'Or in Brussels (closed in 1969), Timmermans in Itterbeek and Winderickx in Dworp/Tourneppe (closed in 1969, then under De Boeck-Goosens ownership).

 

[csano]

Sorry, the 9/21 date was me making a joke. Since etre boxes/payments are due 9/20, I was saying they'd make people buy whatever regular Geuze/Kriek they had in stock and then drop Fou Foune the day after and start the cycle over again.

Didn't mean to mislead anyone.

I don't think you're misleading anyone. I'm surprised they've got this quarterly thing, honestly. Is this something they've always done? And payments? Are you able to reserve without paying?

 

[stupac2]

I don't think you're misleading anyone. I'm surprised they've got this quarterly thing, honestly. Is this something they've always done? And payments? Are you able to reserve without paying?

No, it's just deferred shipment, you pay up front. They've been doing this for a while.

 

[tehzachatak]

I don't think you're misleading anyone. I'm surprised they've got this quarterly thing, honestly. Is this something they've always done? And payments? Are you able to reserve without paying?

You basically buy bottles one at a time without paying for shipping. Then, once you've filled out a box optimally, you choose to have it shipped to you. So, basically, they'll hold bottles up to 3 months for you. But you are paying for the bottles upfront - just not paying for the shipping until you choose to have it shipped.

 

[BusinessSloth]

http://www.bieresgourmet.be/catalog/index.php?main_page=product_info&products_id=865

Two more lambic baskets in stock if anyone needs them