Lallemand Verdant IPA Ale

[tyrub42]

Strange that Verdant yeast seems to stay in the mud 70s over generations. Strange but true, I think. Maybe it gets more aggressive eventually.

I've almost always had verdant in the low to mid 80s. Using it at scale now and it's substantially lazier for some reason

 

[day_trippr]

Yes LAiii get more aggressive over generations. I'm not sure how many that spans, though.

What unexpectedly low FGs have folks experienced using successive generations of LA3?

Since hazies took over most of my brewing I've used a lot of 1318 via starter over-builds, keeping a line going for up to a year before starting with a fresh pack (usually the result of running out of kegs to put new brews in - or some similar high class problem ). The last cycle could easily be a dozen or many more generations from the original pouch, but as far as I've noticed (and I do record each batch's FG in its BS3 recipe) I've never seen a notably low FG...

Cheers!

 

[tyrub42]

What unexpectedly low FGs have folks experienced using successive generations of LA3?

Since hazies took over most of my brewing I've used a lot of 1318 via starter over-builds, keeping a line going for up to a year before starting with a fresh pack (usually the result of running out of kegs to put new brews in - or some similar high class problem ). The last cycle could easily be a dozen or many more generations from the original pouch, but as far as I've noticed (and I do record each batch's FG in its BS3 recipe) I've never seen a notably low FG...

Cheers!

I haven't had big drops at homebrew scale but most of the pro brewers I've spoken to who have a house mutant of LAiii have said it gets more aggressive over time. It makes sense for verdant also, since it's substantially higher attenuating at least in my experience.

I've repitched only 3-4x at home so haven't had big changes in that time. I've actually found LAiii to be one of the most consistent strains in that regard, but always wished it attenuated more, so verdant has been welcome.

BTW I have a friend helping to get me some Pomona over to Taiwan and I'll be doing a side by side with verdant in the coming weeks. Will definitely post results

 

[tyrub42]

What unexpectedly low FGs have folks experienced using successive generations of LA3?

Since hazies took over most of my brewing I've used a lot of 1318 via starter over-builds, keeping a line going for up to a year before starting with a fresh pack (usually the result of running out of kegs to put new brews in - or some similar high class problem ). The last cycle could easily be a dozen or many more generations from the original pouch, but as far as I've noticed (and I do record each batch's FG in its BS3 recipe) I've never seen a notably low FG...

Cheers!

Sorry just reread more carefully. I could be wrong but I think you're also way less likely to see these differences from overbuilding compared to the top cropping/cone harvesting. I wouldn't be surprised if your overbuilds stayed perfectly consistent through 50+ generations honestly.

 

[tyrub42]

I've almost always had verdant in the low to mid 80s. Using it at scale now and it's substantially lazier for some reason

I should probably clarify it isn't a super big difference percentage wise but to get to 80 percent at scale I'm basically keeping the mash one degree lower Celsius and even then I'm often ending in the 78-80 range instead of the 80-82 range I get at home. Doesn't sound like much but when your final gravity is 2 points higher than you expected it's definitely a shock haha

 

[day_trippr]

Sorry just reread more carefully. I could be wrong but I think you're also way less likely to see these differences from overbuilding compared to the top cropping/cone harvesting. I wouldn't be surprised if your overbuilds stayed perfectly consistent through 50+ generations honestly.

You may well be right on that. I've always had a fundamental issue with pitching "used" yeast because I'm convinced it gets "changed" and won't run true for subsequent batches - it'll mutate into a "house strain" with who know what character changes...

Cheers!

 

[Shenanigans]

My NEIPA is a few weeks in the keg now, while it's very drinkable it's unfortunately a bit too thin for my liking.
I'm still not sure why I got 90% attenuation as I didn't make very detailed notes on how I harvested the yeast.
Looking at the beers I have brewed it must be 4th gerneration. Normally I would just make a big starter and keep some for the next brew but I think one time I did some top cropping as I left it too late to make a big enough starter to keep some.
Maybe I picked up some mutated yeast off the top and that has taken over since then.

I have dumped the yeast I kept from the last starter and I'm going to brew my next beers with a pack of Saturated from WHC, which is also a dry version of LAIII.

I know it's not a version of LAIII but Pomona is starting to appear in 11g packs in all the online stores now so I'll see what results others get with that before I try it.
There are some reports out there already but I'll wait until the sample size is a bit bigger before I pull the tigger on that one.
Maybe next Spring.

 

[corncob]

Same for me. I'm on the third repitch with my first packs of verdant ever, and I've seen zero perceptible change in attenuation, behavior, or taste. I think it likes to go about 75%, but I've got one going now to see how high I can push it, and another planned to see how low.
I'm going to do a post when I get through the series, but one thing I've noticed (I think) is that the trademark "fruit salad" flavors seem to present at any fermentation temperature, but increase noticeable with gravity. The last beer will be a lower gravity mild--I'm hoping to get confirmation.

I ended up brewing 6 consecutive batches, top cropping verdant: mostly English styles, but also a couple of Australian sparkling (pale ale malt, corn, clusters). The first three or 4 were down town fruit salad city, regardless of temp or gravity, although the magnitude of the electric red cherry/pineapple/apricot did decrease a little with lower temps and lower gravity, I think. Maybe.

The later batches were noticeably more mellow, with the trademark verdant flavor very much in the background for the 6th pitch, which was a 1.032 mild. I would describe that one as "obviously but generically English." Flocculation seemed to weaken along with the fruit salad. Perhaps 5 or 6 consecutive batches done under the rustic conditions in my brewery are enough to see some reversion to the London Ale III mean. I don't know.

All the beers were very good. The Australian sparkling with cluster hops is just perfect for this yeast. I did a big sweet porter with an earlier pitch and the fruit salad really worked well with a load of extra dark crystal and muscovado sugar. The worst (even though it was still delicious) was a basic best bitter. Fruit salad really clashed. The mild was the best, but I think it would have not been nearly as good if done with an earlier pitch when the fruit salad was prominent.

For me, Verdant is another "not really" on the long road that is the search for a decent dry option for English styles. Flocculation/clarity is OK. Ability to top crop is excellent. It really likes to hang around 75% attenuation, but I was able to push it up to 82 and down to 63 with malt choices and mash temp/time. Those attenuation numbers are for the malt portion of the grist only--before figuring any contribution of sugar. It behaves very English. It doesn't have the twang I get from S-04. But the fruit salad is a little off in lighter styles. It's best use as an English strain is in something dark and sweet.

If I want a pale bitter and it's July and I have no other choice, I would use it in a bitter, but more likely I would just go ahead and brew a mild or a strong bitter to better suit the yeast. On the other hand, I will buy this yeast again specifically for use in Australian sparkling ale (I call my version "American sparkling mild") and in darker, sweeter English ales.

 

[Miraculix]

I ended up brewing 6 consecutive batches, top cropping verdant: mostly English styles, but also a couple of Australian sparkling (pale ale malt, corn, clusters). The first three or 4 were down town fruit salad city, regardless of temp or gravity, although the magnitude of the electric red cherry/pineapple/apricot did decrease a little with lower temps and lower gravity, I think. Maybe.

The later batches were noticeably more mellow, with the trademark verdant flavor very much in the background for the 6th pitch, which was a 1.032 mild. I would describe that one as "obviously but generically English." Flocculation seemed to weaken along with the fruit salad. Perhaps 5 or 6 consecutive batches done under the rustic conditions in my brewery are enough to see some reversion to the London Ale III mean. I don't know.

All the beers were very good. The Australian sparkling with cluster hops is just perfect for this yeast. I did a big sweet porter with an earlier pitch and the fruit salad really worked well with a load of extra dark crystal and muscovado sugar. The worst (even though it was still delicious) was a basic best bitter. Fruit salad really clashed. The mild was the best, but I think it would have not been nearly as good if done with an earlier pitch when the fruit salad was prominent.

For me, Verdant is another "not really" on the long road that is the search for a decent dry option for English styles. Flocculation/clarity is OK. Ability to top crop is excellent. It really likes to hang around 75% attenuation, but I was able to push it up to 82 and down to 63 with malt choices and mash temp/time. Those attenuation numbers are for the malt portion of the grist only--before figuring any contribution of sugar. It behaves very English. It doesn't have the twang I get from S-04. But the fruit salad is a little off in lighter styles. It's best use as an English strain is in something dark and sweet.

If I want a pale bitter and it's July and I have no other choice, I would use it in a bitter, but more likely I would just go ahead and brew a mild or a strong bitter to better suit the yeast. On the other hand, I will buy this yeast again specifically for use in Australian sparkling ale (I call my version "American sparkling mild") and in darker, sweeter English ales.

I mainly agree, I am also seeing verdant shine in dark and/or crystal heavy beers. I made a Caribbean stout with it, just dark muscuvado, pale malt and roasted barley, it was really good.

You have to try it in a lower abv American hop forward beer. Like a pale bitter type of beer, just with big American hop flavour. Verdant is absolutely stellar in these type of beers. This is what I mainly use it for.

 

[Halfakneecap]

I ended up brewing 6 consecutive batches, top cropping verdant: mostly English styles, but also a couple of Australian sparkling (pale ale malt, corn, clusters). The first three or 4 were down town fruit salad city, regardless of temp or gravity, although the magnitude of the electric red cherry/pineapple/apricot did decrease a little with lower temps and lower gravity, I think. Maybe.

The later batches were noticeably more mellow, with the trademark verdant flavor very much in the background for the 6th pitch, which was a 1.032 mild. I would describe that one as "obviously but generically English." Flocculation seemed to weaken along with the fruit salad. Perhaps 5 or 6 consecutive batches done under the rustic conditions in my brewery are enough to see some reversion to the London Ale III mean. I don't know.

All the beers were very good. The Australian sparkling with cluster hops is just perfect for this yeast. I did a big sweet porter with an earlier pitch and the fruit salad really worked well with a load of extra dark crystal and muscovado sugar. The worst (even though it was still delicious) was a basic best bitter. Fruit salad really clashed. The mild was the best, but I think it would have not been nearly as good if done with an earlier pitch when the fruit salad was prominent.

For me, Verdant is another "not really" on the long road that is the search for a decent dry option for English styles. Flocculation/clarity is OK. Ability to top crop is excellent. It really likes to hang around 75% attenuation, but I was able to push it up to 82 and down to 63 with malt choices and mash temp/time. Those attenuation numbers are for the malt portion of the grist only--before figuring any contribution of sugar. It behaves very English. It doesn't have the twang I get from S-04. But the fruit salad is a little off in lighter styles. It's best use as an English strain is in something dark and sweet.

If I want a pale bitter and it's July and I have no other choice, I would use it in a bitter, but more likely I would just go ahead and brew a mild or a strong bitter to better suit the yeast. On the other hand, I will buy this yeast again specifically for use in Australian sparkling ale (I call my version "American sparkling mild") and in darker, sweeter English ales.

I really like Verdant but never thought of it for a Sparkling Ale. I think it'd work well, as Coopers beers have a pleasant ester. Not quite the same as Coopers, but i think Verdant would definately work well. Great idea

 

[An Ankoù]

know.

All the beers were very good. The Australian sparkling with cluster hops is just perfect for this yeast. I did a big sweet porter with an earlier pitch and the fruit salad really worked well with a load of extra dark crystal and muscovado sugar. The worst (even though it was still delicious) was a basic best bitter. Fruit salad really clashed. The mild was the best, but I think it would have not been nearly as good if done with an earlier pitch when the fruit salad was prominent.

Haven't tasted an Australian sparkling for many years. Can you recommend a good recipe?
I like VIPA yeast. Its a bit cold in my brewery at the moment so I'm focusing on lagers, but Verdant will be first out of the bag in spring.

 

[corncob]

I've never had a coopers, and had not heard of the style until a member here remarked that the recipe I was working on sounded like "Australian sparkling ale." and sure enough, while I was taking a decade off brewing, they revised the bjcp categories. My goal was to make an ale that would take the place of ice cold light American lager here in the sunny South. Something crisp and light, but sweet and fruity and rich. "What if the lager brewers had never immigrated, and English brewing tradition had remained dominant until refrigeration brought large scale brewing to the South," I asked myself. "Could a beer be devised that would be refreshing at 32deg and also indulgent at 65deg?" So I am reinventing the wheel, following after my Australian cousins.

My recipe for "American sparkling mild" is still in process, but as of today it's:

75% us pale ale malt (srm over 3, please)
20% corn (not malted)
5% malted wheat

60min cluster for 32 ibu
20min cluster for 8 ibu

Mash low and long, like you would for a light lager. Really do it to it. Ferment with verdant (or whatever fruity English you have in the fridge, but verdant really sings for this one). Do not overpitch. Let it rise to about 72 once it gets moving. If it's a dry pitch or not too many generations out, I see 75% attenuation or a little more despite the aggressive mash. Carb to 2.7-2.8 volumes. I would prefer a little less abv in it (muh liver!), but have been getting a great balance between all factors in the 5.2-5.7% range. It wants to get a little thin and dry below that. Possibly the alcohol is contributing to the sweet taste. I don't know. More work to be done...

I treat my soft well water to get about 75ppm calcium, 150 sulphate, very little chloride. That's about where I like it, or maybe a touch more. I have to use a cc or 2 of lactic in the mash. I know from experimentation that low chloride is important.

It should be fairly thin, with just a little body from the ale yeast and the higher kilned malt, with more fruit than bitterness, sweet-presenting, but crisp. It's not fancy, but it's a real drinker. It seems like I brew this about every second or third brew now.

I've experimented with this recipe quite a bit, and the grist bill is right where I like it. The hops might still need a little work. It's close. I don't want an APA or an IPA. I want something more English in its overall presentation, because the resinous beers don't work for me over the broad temperature range. And because I'm looking for something a little more old-timey. I have gone back and forth with a late addition of goldings--I can't decide if it belongs or not. The 60-minute boil for the cluster is important. Don't shorten it.

That's about it. An awful lot of text for a dead simple brew.

 

[An Ankoù]

Thanks @corncob . Really useful detail. I got all those ingredients in stock (well I can't get US Pale, but I've got a pale over 3 SRM) I hear what you say about the minerals and I'll keep the chloride low.
I'll get started on this over the weekend.
Very much appreciated, thanks again.

 

[DuncB]

@corncob
I'd say you are basically making an American cream Ale.
Have one on tap at the moment.

 

[Miraculix]

@corncob
I'd say you are basically making an American cream Ale.
Have one on tap at the moment.

Cream ale is supposed to be clean, isn't it?

 

[corncob]

Cream ale is supposed to be clean, isn't it?

Yeah, I make cream ales sometimes too. People make them all kind of ways now, but the trad cream ale formula is a lager grist, a ton of corn, and a very subtle touch of ale yeast ester and hops. This is definitely not that. But I think they are relatives. The darker pale ale malt swapped out for six row is a very different grist, considering the lack of any stronger malt in the mix.

 

[DuncB]

Difficult to find 6 row here so I use 2 row, I made a pre prohibition cream Ale and it was quite hoppy.
Think I found the recipe in byo magazine.

 

[day_trippr]

In the pre-prohibition era 6 row malted barley may have been prescribed to take on the large unmalted corn percentages with a reliable net Lintner result. Over the decades since, 2 row diastatic enzyme levels have been optimized through breeding compared to their ancestors, and malting processes have been refined for efficiency. I think at this point it'd be an edge case recipe that would make 6 row barley "necessary"...

Cheers!

 

[DuncB]

@day_trippr
Agreed.

 

[corncob]

Agreed, but I like the graininess of the 6 row. I might be fooling myself, but I think it's got a rougher flavor.


Regarding enzymes, I can really tell a difference with the darker pale ale malt in the recipe above. It takes a while to convert all that adjunct. Seems like some where around 3.4 srm the diastatic power really falls off.

 

[day_trippr]

Extra "graininess" perhaps due to the higher percentage of husk mass?

I would totally expect what you see wrt SRM vs DP, I just wouldn't know if the curve has a knee...

Cheers!

 

[corncob]

Thanks @corncob . Really useful detail. I got all those ingredients in stock (well I can't get US Pale, but I've got a pale over 3 SRM) I hear what you say about the minerals and I'll keep the chloride low.
I'll get started on this over the weekend.
Very much appreciated, thanks again.

Did you end up brewing this? How did it turn out?

 

[An Ankoù]

Did you end up brewing this? How did it turn out?

I didn't, @corncob, yet. But I've got the recipe all ready to go in my brewing log. I put the VIPA away when the weather chilled and started on lager to take advantage of the cold weather. I had thought of using S-23 or WLP835, but they didn't seem to fit in with what you were intending from the Verdant, in spite of Duncan's references to cream ale. Then I forgot. Thanks for reminding me.

 

[corncob]

I'm on the edge of my seat...

 

[Miraculix]

I am currently again heavily impressed by the fact that American hops can mute verdant flavour 100%. I do not know if they are just overshadowing the flavour or if the flavour is not being generated in first place when American hops are present.

I have just brewed an APA with a generous whirlpool and dry hop addition (see the sonic bottling thread for visuals ) and I taste zero Verdant. If you would tell me that this beer is brewed with US 05, I would believe it 100%.

 

[corncob]

That's very strange. I assume it's mostly used for hazy ipas (I've never brewed anything like that)--I would assume those guys want the fruit salad?

 

[G_robertus]

I am currently again heavily impressed by the fact that American hops can mute verdant flavour 100%. I do not know if they are just overshadowing the flavour or if the flavour is not being generated in first place when American hops are present.

I have just brewed an APA with a generous whirlpool and dry hop addition (see the sonic bottling thread for visuals ) and I taste zero Verdant. If you would tell me that this beer is brewed with US 05, I would believe it 100%.

I was under the impression that was mostly due to assertive flavours like bitterness. I get less/no fruit in bitter and dark beers, but in low bitterness beers it's very apparent (below 25-30 IBU). To me it's not necessarily where the hops come from. I've had WC IPA made with Verdant a few times and I still found the mouthfeel to be very obvious and out of style.

 

[corncob]

I accidentally produced another data point on the behavior of this yeast, and I think I have become confident that pitch rate plays a significant role in ester profile. Due to discovering at the last minute that 1 of 2 old packs in the refrigerator was soft (and therefore not sealed), I pitched half as much as usual into 7 gallons of 1.052 wort. Recipe was the American sparkling mild discussed earlier in this thread (20 percent corn, so tends to promote esters anyway). Nobody ever knows how many cells are in those packs, but this was definitely an underpitch compared to my normal, because it took twice as long to reach terminal gravity, which was a little higher than expected, even though no taste/smell evidence of incomplete fermentation. Definitely finished clean. The ale is ready now, and it is fruity at another level. Like biting into a ripe peach. Truly a fruit salad war crime.

It's very, very good--don't get me wrong. I think it really works for this style. I went back over my notes from prior verdant brews in which the fruit salad was attenuated--all pitched with fresh top-cropped slurry, and the amounts were generous. I think they were massive overpitches.

This one could be a fluke, of course, but it also might indicate that the path to a decent English bitter made with dry yeast is to first do a dark verdant brew, top-crop everything you can get, and aim for the shortest possible fermentation with a ridiculous amount of fresh slurry.