Lager vs Kveik: The Test

[Toxxyc]

Good afternoon guys,

So, a while ago I started playing with Kveik yeasts, mostly because hot sunny South Africa gets nice and warm and I was wondering if there's perhaps a nice yeast that can be used to ferment at room temperature. Anyway, that led to me using the first Kveik I could find - Voss. That led to using Oslo, reported at the time as a very clean Kveik strain and that produced very average results (for me).

Eventually though, Lutra popped out here in South Africa and I made a few brews with it, including a cider and a Pils-styled beer. The cider was very sulphury and the Pils took a while to get good, but eventually both brews turned out really great. It took MONTHS to get there, but still.

Anyway, this prompted me to do a side-by-side test. People keep raving about Lutra, and I'm a fan of lager yeasts, so I figured to give it a shot - test Lutra side-by-side with a decent lager yeast. So that's what I did. I brewed a beer and I'm currently fermenting the wort. The test information follows.

The Goal
The goal is to run Lutra against Diamond Lager yeast, side by side, using the same wort and to see what kind of beer is being produced by each yeast. This test is not to see if Lutra will make a beer that's lager-clean per se, but more to see if it's actually worth using Kveik yeasts like Lutra to make a beer, without having the same conditioning time assigned to it like I've seen assigned to a true lager yeast. The reason for this is because, to date, I haven't had a single beer made with Kveik that was as good after the same time as it is when made with a regular ale yeast, such as US-05 or S-04. I'm using Diamond Lager to compare because it's a lager yeast and typically needs some lagering anyway.

The Test
I made a batch of wort and split it between two fermenters. Initially I aimed for 44l of wort, but due to a terrible spillage on the brew day I ended up with less than 40l in the end, unfortunately. Still enough for two kegs, though, so that's good. Both are fermenting, the Kveik actually being done by now, but still conditioning, and the Diamond is happily and slowly fermenting now.

The Beer
Because of the yeasts in use, I figured a clean, easy drinking beer with little to hide behind would be a good choice. I chose a German Pilsner styled beer, for two reasons. First, I absolutely adore the style and I've never made a bad one. Second, it's an easy recipe with VERY little to hide behind. Any and all yeast flaws will be shown, clearly. The recipe therefore, ended up being:

9kg Crisp Extra Pale Ale Malt
250g Crisp Dextrin Malt

Mashed at 65°C for 60 minutes.

Boil included:
50g Tettnang @ 60 minutes
24g Magnum @ 60 minutes
Two teaspoons Irish Moss @ 15 minutes

Total IBU - 26 IBU (aimed). This was then poured into no-chill containers, and before sealing I added 20g of Mittelfruh hops to each container for flavour and aroma.

The Fermentation
After cooling, the wort was moved to fermenters and the yeasts pitched. With the Lutra I pitched a full packet and with Diamond Lager I pitched two packets. OG before pitching for the batch was a nice and round 1.050. Lutra has been fermenting at 25°C and 48 hours later the airlock died down. It's going to sit on the yeast cake for 2 weeks to clean up. Diamond Lager is in the fermentation chamber set between 10.5°C and 11.5°C. I have a thick, creamy, snotty krauzen on top, typical of the yeast and the fermentation is nice and slowly progressing. It'll stay in the fermenter until it's completely done + 1 week, at least.

The Last Bit
After fermentation I'm cold crashing with gelatin for a week, and then moving both beers into kegs, slightly pressurizing them and then moving them to the conditioning fridge to keep them conditioning for at least 4 weeks before carbonating and tapping. I'll then post my findings here. It won't be scientific, but I'll pour two beers and taste them, and let you know what I prefer and what I pick up. That's it. I'll then also be able to make the final call - is Lutra (or any other Kveik, for that matter) worth using, for me personally, or should I continue to stick with the yeasts I'm familiar with?

Hope to see some people posting their own findings or feelings on this as well. Thanks for reading my crap!

 

[friarsmith]

This is a related article I wrote for Zymurgy. I have brewed a few Lutra lagers since this endeavor and my main conclusion is to pitch Lutra as cold as possible (50-55) and let it free rise to room temp over the first few days. This seems minimize the yeast notes in the finished beer (esters etc). I wish I would have added this process to the original experiment, because I think it would have done pretty well in judging.

FWIW, I still prefer traditional lager yeasts fermented cool, but Lutra can “get you close” if you dont have temp control.

 

[DuncB]

Opshaug kveik, 29c under pressure build to 10 psi on spund then at end of ferment tailing off on ispindel let it rise to 30 psi.
2 degree ramp for 2-3 days then cold crash and super f and transfer.
Continue cold condition.
It's not lager but it tastes clean and similar.

 

[Toxxyc]

So for me, the Kveiks might ferment clean, but they don't produce that "crisp" mouthfeel you get with a lager yeast. I want to see if this can be done with Lutra when Lutra is babied, just like the lager yeast. So let's see!

 

[McMullan]

I'm confused. You have temperature control for fermentation, like lager yeast and German Pilsners, which I totally understand. But why bother with kveik? All the 'raving' looked engineered yonks ago, with a disproportionate online PR campaign that simply fails to match the spiel. The irony is, with good yeast management and some tricks, an authentic German Pilsner, indeed any lager, can go from grain to glass sooner than a flawed pseudo lager fermented warm over a day or two with kveik. I just don't get it. You'd be much better off comparing something like pitching dry Diamond yeast vs repitched fresh Diamond yeast.

 

[Toxxyc]

I'm confused. You have temperature control for fermentation, like lager yeast and German Pilsners, which I totally understand. But why bother with kveik? All the 'raving' looked engineered yonks ago, with a disproportionate online PR campaign that simply fails to match the spiel. The irony is, with good yeast management and some tricks, an authentic German Pilsner, indeed any lager, can go from grain to glass sooner than a flawed pseudo lager fermented warm over a day or two with kveik. I just don't get it. You'd be much better off comparing something like pitching dry Diamond yeast vs repitched fresh Diamond yeast.

Well, the reason is twofold.

First, my fermentation chamber is simply a fridge with a temp controller on it. If I don't use it for fermentation, it turns into a regular fridge we use around the house for food and drinks. Every time I want to use it I need to prep my wife for at least a week or two beforehand to stop putting food in it, because if I set it to 12°C that food won't last. So I need to empty it - and keep it empty - for the time I need it. It's not a train smash, but it's a little niggle I don't like. Yes, the fridge is mine for brewing, but woe to me should I tell me wife I'm taking it exclusively for booze. As such, I figured I could look at other yeasts as well. I worked with regular ale yeasts for a while and they work fine if I keep them in a cool part of the house for the cooler months, but during high summer in South Africa it's simply too hot. Then it's easier to keep a fermenter at 30°C, for example, than 19°C. Keeping in mind I've measured 38°C on my inside wall in high summer over here before. So that's one reason.

Second reason, simply, I'm curious. I like running tests, and everyone keeps ooh-ing and aah-ing about how clean Lutra is, and so far I've had some decent results but I figured the best way to check would be a test like this. A proper test.

Oh yes, I've done warm lagers before as well, so that's also an option at some stages, but this is just a test. Worst case I have a keg of great beer and a keg of OK beer at the end of this.

 

[hottpeper13]

I find that Lutra's advantage is it does the same at 20*c or 30*c. It's not a replacement for lager but makes a clean ale. I put it on my Munich Dunkle grain bill and (this is key) after 6 weeks G to G it was the best brown ale I ever made. All the beers I've fermented with Kviek take 4-6 weeks to condition and taste there best. Last July 4th I served a keg of IPA that was 3 weeks old and even though it kicked, when the second one was put on tap about 4 weeks later I thought it was smoother and more defined.
As the weather warms here I will be using the Voss for an IPA because I'm trying to nail down my assumption that the hops don't seem to fade and the beer tastes the same from the time it's tapped to kicked ,which is about 2 months. Bonus is I can ferment a Kolsch or Lager in the chamber at the same time.

 

[rtstrider]

Lutra is definitely a good yeast for "crispy" ales. Now I wouldn't throw it in the lager category outside of the "crispness". There's definitely a grape musk ester there that I have been unable to cold condition out of the brew. I've played with pitch rates and controlled temp ferments with no luck. Now if you could bitter this to the 35-40 ibu range that would definitely help hide the ester. I've brewed the Lutra Helles (Omega recipe) and a Lutra Kolsch (25 ibus) The kolsch was much more palatable but the ester was absolutely still there. The extra IBU's did help in covering this up. A pinch more and it would be good! I don't agree with Lutra being clean at all. It does not have the kveik twang but it is very crispy. I hope that helps here and I'm looking forward to your results!

 

[McMullan]

Well, the reason is twofold.

First, my fermentation chamber is simply a fridge with a temp controller on it. If I don't use it for fermentation, it turns into a regular fridge we use around the house for food and drinks. Every time I want to use it I need to prep my wife for at least a week or two beforehand to stop putting food in it, because if I set it to 12°C that food won't last. So I need to empty it - and keep it empty - for the time I need it. It's not a train smash, but it's a little niggle I don't like. Yes, the fridge is mine for brewing, but woe to me should I tell me wife I'm taking it exclusively for booze. As such, I figured I could look at other yeasts as well. I worked with regular ale yeasts for a while and they work fine if I keep them in a cool part of the house for the cooler months, but during high summer in South Africa it's simply too hot. Then it's easier to keep a fermenter at 30°C, for example, than 19°C. Keeping in mind I've measured 38°C on my inside wall in high summer over here before. So that's one reason.

Second reason, simply, I'm curious. I like running tests, and everyone keeps ooh-ing and aah-ing about how clean Lutra is, and so far I've had some decent results but I figured the best way to check would be a test like this. A proper test.

Oh yes, I've done warm lagers before as well, so that's also an option at some stages, but this is just a test. Worst case I have a keg of great beer and a keg of OK beer at the end of this.

Whatever you feel works for you is fine.

 

[Gusso]

Lutra is my go to yeast for my Baltic Porters. Tastes fantastic!

 

[Homebrew Harry]

Subbed

 

[Miraculix]

Lutra is definitely a good yeast for "crispy" ales. Now I wouldn't throw it in the lager category outside of the "crispness". There's definitely a grape musk ester there that I have been unable to cold condition out of the brew. I've played with pitch rates and controlled temp ferments with no luck. Now if you could bitter this to the 35-40 ibu range that would definitely help hide the ester. I've brewed the Lutra Helles (Omega recipe) and a Lutra Kolsch (25 ibus) The kolsch was much more palatable but the ester was absolutely still there. The extra IBU's did help in covering this up. A pinch more and it would be good! I don't agree with Lutra being clean at all. It does not have the kveik twang but it is very crispy. I hope that helps here and I'm looking forward to your results!

I made the exact same experience with this yeast.

One caveat, it didn't really clear for me, but I've heard that it sometimes does that and sometimes it doesn't. The beer didn't taste yeasty though, which I would have expected with that level of haze. A bit of a mystery.

 

[Toxxyc]

Weird. I have a beer currently on tap made with Lutra and it cleared to crystal clear. Granted, it did spend almost 5 months in the keg before I started serving, and it was fined with gelatin, but still, it's one of the clearest beers I've made to date. The picture still shows a slight haze, but that's because of condensation on the glass. The beer itself is crystal, crystal clear.

 

[JohnSand]

I've used Oslo and like it for Pale Ales. I tried an all pilsner recipe with noble hops fermented with it, a touch fruity.
Thanks for your experiment.

 

[Toxxyc]

I also found Oslo very overrated. I could only get it in liquid form, and I'm not sure if it's in dry form at all, but anyway. I brewed a beer with it and I found it fast, which is fine, but it was quite fruity for me as well. Voss was like overripe fruit in the flavour and I simply can't find a beer I like to drink where that will work.

As a last note on this test - I've not been impressed with Kveik yet. This is literally it's last shot. If this fails and the beer turns out bad, I'm done with Kveik and I'm not touching it again. This is its last chance to prove it has something to give. It's not cheaper, it's not cleaner, it doesn't take less time to condition than any other yeast, so if this batch with Lutra ferments clean enough and gets drinkable fast enough to be worth it, I'll consider using it again in the future. Otherwise, I'm done.

 

[Miraculix]

I also found Oslo very overrated. I could only get it in liquid form, and I'm not sure if it's in dry form at all, but anyway. I brewed a beer with it and I found it fast, which is fine, but it was quite fruity for me as well. Voss was like overripe fruit in the flavour and I simply can't find a beer I like to drink where that will work.

As a last note on this test - I've not been impressed with Kveik yet. This is literally it's last shot. If this fails and the beer turns out bad, I'm done with Kveik and I'm not touching it again. This is its last chance to prove it has something to give. It's not cheaper, it's not cleaner, it doesn't take less time to condition than any other yeast, so if this batch with Lutra ferments clean enough and gets drinkable fast enough to be worth it, I'll consider using it again in the future. Otherwise, I'm done.

We are on the same page here. Lutra is the only kveik that I could imagine myself using during high heat periods to brew a clean hoppy pale ale. The hoppyness covers the little kveik twang a bit and lutra itself doesn't bring any of the weird fruit that for example Voss certainly has.

For me it is a high heat American ale yeast replacement and it can do that job. There's still a bit of twang left, but it is quite low, compared to the other kveiks. I'd prefer us05 or similar at optimum fermentation temperature. If this temperature wouldn't be available, I would certainly consider using lutra instead.

 

[rtstrider]

I also found Oslo very overrated. I could only get it in liquid form, and I'm not sure if it's in dry form at all, but anyway. I brewed a beer with it and I found it fast, which is fine, but it was quite fruity for me as well. Voss was like overripe fruit in the flavour and I simply can't find a beer I like to drink where that will work.

As a last note on this test - I've not been impressed with Kveik yet. This is literally it's last shot. If this fails and the beer turns out bad, I'm done with Kveik and I'm not touching it again. This is its last chance to prove it has something to give. It's not cheaper, it's not cleaner, it doesn't take less time to condition than any other yeast, so if this batch with Lutra ferments clean enough and gets drinkable fast enough to be worth it, I'll consider using it again in the future. Otherwise, I'm done.

Voss is a good strain if you really hop it up! I like it for the speed. Now I'm not a kviek expert by all means but I can see where it might be beneficial. I have an Opshaug starter cold crashing now and will be brewing an Idaho 7/Briess 2 row smash fermented at room temp in the house. Opshaug is a good strain at room temp at least and really doesn't bring that twang. It plays extremely well with fruity pale ales/hazy's. Going to get Hornidal (probably White Labs) in the mix maybe next year to see how that performs. As of now Kviek is a neat novelty yeast but not something I can see as a daily driver.

 

[lumpher]

I have a Maibock I'm about to keg using Lutra. First time using any Kveik. I got it in a blowout sale when Austin Homebrew was shutting down. The whole kit with the Lutra was $22, so I decided to give it a try. I'm curious how close it will be to a "real" Maibock.

 

[NitrogenWidget]

I brewed a blonde last summer and used Lutra just to see.
the beer guys who drank it thought i had the wrong label on the tap because they said it tasted a lot like a lager.
i used centenial and amarillo and it only had about 20 ibu's.
it was crisp but i had some specialty grain in there that i think clashed a little with the lager like taste so this yr i'll leave them out and see how it works.

Also took I think 2 days to finish fermenting.
let it sit for another 2 or 3 then it was kegged.
essentially it was in the keg and carbing up on day 5 or 6 after brewing.

 

[Zambezi Special]

I've been using a lot of kveik voss, due to not having temp control.
It loves the heat (and the Zambezi valley can get real hot), can handle temperature differences, and a little goes a long way.
I underpitch.
There is a slight twang, but not much.
In my opinion it works well in blondes, cider, wheat beer, and not bad in not too bitter pale ales.
Disclaimer: anything I brew is better than what is available locally, since there is nothing
But it means I got no comparison except for taste memory

 

[Brooothru]

I brewed a blonde last summer and used Lutra just to see.
the beer guys who drank it thought i had the wrong label on the tap because they said it tasted a lot like a lager.
i used centenial and amarillo and it only had about 20 ibu's.
it was crisp but i had some specialty grain in there that i think clashed a little with the lager like taste so this yr i'll leave them out and see how it works.

Also took I think 2 days to finish fermenting.
let it sit for another 2 or 3 then it was kegged.
essentially it was in the keg and carbing up on day 5 or 6 after brewing.

I've got a 'Lutra Blonde' conditioning at 38°F as we speak. Leaving town for 3 weeks, and I'm really interested in what it will be like upon return home. Basic 2-row with some Vienna thrown in, Citra and Trident hops. Lutra (dry yeast, 1 sachet; first time trying the dried Lutra) fermented quick (dropped 37 points in the first 30 hours at ~62°F) and had cleared quite well by the time it was kegged 8 days later.

Although I wasn't looking for anything more than an easy ale, I suspect this one might turn out to be like an IPL.

 

[hottpeper13]

Brooothru, that beer is going to awesome because you used the entire pack of yeast. I have yet to underpitch Honindal,Voss or Lutra (so far my fav) and don't get any twang. Maybe someone should do a split batch with US05 and Lutra using only 1/2 of each and see which beer tastes better.

 

[Toxxyc]

I've been using a lot of kveik voss, due to not having temp control.
It loves the heat (and the Zambezi valley can get real hot), can handle temperature differences, and a little goes a long way.
I underpitch.
There is a slight twang, but not much.
In my opinion it works well in blondes, cider, wheat beer, and not bad in not too bitter pale ales.
Disclaimer: anything I brew is better than what is available locally, since there is nothing
But it means I got no comparison except for taste memory

hopingmadinZam?

Anyway, a small update. Both fermenters are quiet and krauzens are down. I'll be cold crashing the lager this week, and then do the Kveik batch later in the week when I have space in the fridge. Both will then go into kegs, get some gelatin, and then go back into the fridge to condition for a few weeks before tasting.

I'll also be taking the FG samples during kegging. Can't wait!

 

[Zambezi Special]

I like trials
If I would have more fermenters, I would probably start looking at pitching amounts for Kveik

Not totally mad yet, just bush happy for now

 

[Toxxyc]

Ah, was just wondering if you're the same guy on a local forum we have here in South Africa, he's also homebrewing there in Zambia. I actually sent him some wort and brewing equipment a while back. I believe he also brews with Kveik purely because of the heat over there.

 

[Zambezi Special]

Nope. Definitely not that guy. I'm a girl. But still it isn't me

There are not that many brewers in Zambia as far as I know....

 

[Toxxyc]

Well girls brew just as well, I've learned!

Anyway, as luck would have it my temp controller konked out due to load shedding (essentially rolling blackouts in our country to prevent the grid failing), and I now have no choice but to start the cold crash of the lager beer. The fridge can't warm up, I don't want the lager to exceed it's max temp of 15°C and this morning I found ambient at 16.2°C already. My other controller is keeping my keezer cold so yeah, fridge is now on full blast. Just hope I reached full att.

 

[easttex]

Weird. I have a beer currently on tap made with Lutra and it cleared to crystal clear. Granted, it did spend almost 5 months in the keg before I started serving, and it was fined with gelatin, but still, it's one of the clearest beers I've made to date. The picture still shows a slight haze, but that's because of condensation on the glass. The beer itself is crystal, crystal clear.

I've brewed several beers with Lutra. It is quickly becoming my house ale yeast. Being an ale yeast, it does not consume the same sugars that lager yeasts do so it will never have the "crisp" flavor note of a lager. I've never had a problem with my Lutra beers dropping clear and have brewed several at room temp that dropped clear enough in ten days that I could read the paper through it.

When I brew with Lutra (or Voss), I usually pitch it at room temp (~23°C) and let it ride. Lutra has not made a disappointing beer for me yet.

All kveik strains I've brewed with require some conditioning time in the keg. Lutra less than others but still, a couple weeks.

 

[Toxxyc]

Alrighty, after cold crashing the lager batch for a few days I kegged it. I then did the same with the Lutra batch and both are now kegged. I got more beer out of the Lutra batch, I'm guessing because the cube it went into had less spillage, but it also seems like I got more from the siphon (I did more work to get the beer out). Only after the fermenter stood for a good 30 minutes, open, did I check and see the Diamond batch still had a good 2l or so of beer on the yeast cake. Eh. Anyway.

Interestingly, I took samples from both beers, let them warm up to 20°C and then took FG readings after degassing the samples a bit (with porous pebbles). The result on both, exactly 1.010 FG. That's down from 1.050, so both reached exactly the same FG, and both are exactly 5.25% ABV. It also means that both yeasts in their optimum temperatures reached the same attenuation of 79%. Both ended higher than I expected, with numbers in the range of 1.007 expected from myself, but eh, I'm not going to fret over 3 gravity points AT ALL.

EDIT: Before I note the below, I'm happy to report none of the beers have any off flavours that I detected at the start of ferment. This leads me to believe the off flavour is a yeast byproduct, as a result of abusing my yeast. Yes, I've been cutting corners and underpitching - that's now a thing of the past.

Now, the best part. Obviously, I tasted the warm samples after taking the FG readings. This is what was most interesting to me. I have to admit here, in all honesty, I was biased against the Lutra here from the start. I was rooting for the Diamond Lager yeast out the gates, but this kind of opened my eyes here. Perhaps I was addressing this the wrong way, because the two beers are worlds apart. The Diamond Lager beer is noticeably "drier" on the taste, but also seems to be more bitter, and has a much more pronounced and clearer hop flavour and aroma. That same noble hop aroma and flavour I love is "in your face" on the Diamond batch, and it's almost overbearing. I know time kills this a bit so I'm not worried at all, but the sample was not as refined as I'd hoped it would be. It's familiar, so I know it'll lager well, but it's not where I hoped it would be given how I treated the yeast this time around. So one learns.

Next up, the Lutra batch. Sample measured at 1.010 and I was happy, and then I took a sip. SURPRISE. Yes, it's not the same. At all. It's not as crisp, it's not as dry and it doesn't have that almost tongue-tip-dryness that I immediately picked up with the Diamond batch. However, it's also way more drinkable, flat, warm than the other one. WAY more. It's fairly fruity, which I did not expect at all, so that's a very important thing I have to mention. The typical earthy notes of the hops are totally missing, and it feels like the bitterness is almost hidden behind the perceived sweetness that HAS to come from the yeast - I mean, otherwise it's exactly the same beer! The Diamond batch tasted like a green German Pilsner, which is what I made, but his Lutra batch almost tastes like a Pale Ale, which I guess it comes close to now.

So I'm quite excited to see where it ends up in a month's time. I have a few bottles of the Lutra batch bottled and carbonating now, I'll give those a taste to see where they're at in a week or two, but the kegs are left undisturbed in the keezer until I can test them. My testing date is set to the 19th of July, 4 weeks after kegging, and I suspect it'll give me a good idea of where we're headed. I kegged these two unfined (no idea where my gelatin is, have to go buy more), so I'll fine them 2 weeks from now and start carbonating them at the same time. I'm thinking 15PSI for 1 week and then 12PSI for another week will give a nice lightly carbonated beer, just how I like it.

I can't wait!

 

[Miraculix]

Thanks for the continuous updates. Very good read. It kind of reflects my own experiences with lutra. I'm looking forward to seeing whether or not you will be able to detect the kveik twang after some more time. It took quite a bit of time in my lutra beer to develop.

 

[easttex]

That the Lutra beer has a different hop characteristic than the Diamond batch fits with what I've read reported elsewhere - that kveik strains tend to mute hop characteristics a bit during fermentation. I can't say I've experienced this myself since 80% of the beers I brewed last year were malt-forward styles. Lutra made good beers with those. Perhaps I'll brew a split batch of West Coast IPA later this summer and compare Chico to Lutra and see when makes a better beer...

 

[Miraculix]

That the Lutra beer has a different hop characteristic than the Diamond batch fits with what I've read reported elsewhere - that kveik strains tend to mute hop characteristics a bit during fermentation. I can't say I've experienced this myself since 80% of the beers I brewed last year were malt-forward styles. Lutra made good beers with those. Perhaps I'll brew a split batch of West Coast IPA later this summer and compare Chico to Lutra and see when makes a better beer...

I have the suspicion that it depends on the timing of the hop addition. My theory is that the yeast drops out together with the hop character forming molecules, it attracts them and then seals them in the sludge together with themselve.

So I think that boil additions will differ vastly in terms of hop flavor and aroma from lutra to us05, while the effect of dry hopping, after the majority of the yeast already settled out, shouldn't be that different at all. My experience with lutra confirms this, I had really good hop flavour and aroma from short (2 days) and late dry hop additions.

 

[dmtaylor]

the Lutra batch... It's fairly fruity, which I did not expect at all, so that's a very important thing I have to mention... The Diamond batch tasted like a green German Pilsner, which is what I made, but his Lutra batch almost tastes like a Pale Ale, which I guess it comes close to now.

I love your experiment, thank you for sharing such detailed tasting notes!! Above is about what I'd expected, as a very brief synopsis.

 

[stealthfixr]

Thank you OP for creating this thread! Excellent experiment that should be on Brulosophy.

Your early comments mirror my 'lager' experience with Lutra, which to me seems more like a clean Ale yeast than a pseudo-lager one. I actually really like Lutra, but I turn to other options when a real lager is needed. To me, Lutra could be a very nice option for a lot of clean ale styles, like a Blonde or a Pale Ale.

 

[CascadesBrewer]

Thank you OP for creating this thread! Excellent experiment that should be on Brulosophy.

Your early comments mirror my 'lager' experience with Lutra, which to me seems more like a clean Ale yeast than a pseudo-lager one. I actually really like Lutra, but I turn to other options when a real lager is needed. To me, Lutra could be a very nice option for a lot of clean ale styles, like a Blonde or a Pale Ale.

There was a more informal Bru Club article on Lutra vs 34/70. Spoiler: with a total of 51 tasters, the results were not-significant, but only 1 away (p=0.053 vs p=0.050).
https://brulosophy.com/2022/03/03/t...a-kveik-vs-saflager-w-34-70-in-a-german-pils/
I have never brewed with Lutra. A friend split a batch with Lutra (fermented warm) and another lager yeast (not sure which one, fermented with a traditional schedule). When I first tried the Lutra one, which was on tap quickly, I thought it was very nice. When the "real" lager was ready, the two beer were very different in a side by side. The Lutra was a bit too plain and lifeless, where the lager felt like a really solid lager type beer with more flavor and mouthfeel.

 

[rtstrider]

There was a more informal Bru Club article on Lutra vs 34/70. Spoiler: with a total of 51 tasters, the results were not-significant, but only 1 away (p=0.053 vs p=0.050).
https://brulosophy.com/2022/03/03/t...a-kveik-vs-saflager-w-34-70-in-a-german-pils/
I have never brewed with Lutra. A friend split a batch with Lutra (fermented warm) and another lager yeast (not sure which one, fermented with a traditional schedule). When I first tried the Lutra one, which was on tap quickly, I thought it was very nice. When the "real" lager was ready, the two beer were very different in a side by side. The Lutra was a bit too plain and lifeless, where the lager felt like a really solid lager type beer with more flavor and mouthfeel.

I would also have to say using a 32 ibu beer would not be a good test for tasting yeast differences. If anything I'd shoot for something in the 15-16 ibu range and something in the 1.038-1.040 range. Give it a fair shot. From experience Lutra tastes nothing like W34/70. Now here's the thing...I say that but some may prefer Lutra over 34/70 and that's ok. Some times it's so easy to get caught up in being right/wrong than accepting it's ok to have a different perspective lol I've been extremely guilty of that. Anywho at the end of the day brew what makes you happy!

 

[Miraculix]

I would also have to say using a 32 ibu beer would not be a good test for tasting yeast differences. If anything I'd shoot for something in the 15-16 ibu range and something in the 1.038-1.040 range. Give it a fair shot. From experience Lutra tastes nothing like W34/70. Now here's the thing...I say that but some may prefer Lutra over 34/70 and that's ok. Some times it's so easy to get caught up in being right/wrong than accepting it's ok to have a different perspective lol I've been extremely guilty of that. Anywho at the end of the day brew what makes you happy!

The lower the og, the lower the yeast expression. Something in the range of 1.05 seems perfect to me. No muted expressions due to not many shorter sugars being available but also not too high to make things weired through elevated alcohol levels. 10 ibus less wouldn't have hurt though, but 32 is still not awfully high and as there are no huge dry or late additions included, I think it's a pretty good beer for this test

 

[rtstrider]

The lower the og, the lower the yeast expression. Something in the range of 1.05 seems perfect to me. No muted expressions due to not many shorter sugars being available but also not too high to make things weired through elevated alcohol levels. 10 ibus less wouldn't have hurt though, but 32 is still not awfully high and as there are no huge dry or late additions included, I think it's a pretty good beer for this test

Mind providing a source on the muted expressions or is this just a personal experience that's been had? I've not run into this, but, again that's just my experience

 

[Miraculix]

Mind providing a source on the muted expressions or is this just a personal experience that's been had? I've not run into this, but, again that's just my experience

I havebrewed quite a lot of low abv beers and the lower I got the lower the yeast expression got. It got to a point were it didn't basically matter any more if it would have been an american ale yeast or an english yeast as the difference was really low. It is actully quite a logical thing, the yeast expression is a result of yeast metabolism. The lower the amount of sugars to metabolize, the lower the resulting yeast expression. It can be manipulated a bit by changing the type of sugars towards the shorter sugars, as these tend to result in stronger ester production, but overall, the less sugars, the less metabolisation, the less yeast expression.

 

[Toxxyc]

Yeah that's why with this test I decided to boost my ABV and OG a little bit. I typically make 1.042~ish beers, that's my favourite spot for OG, which then ferments down to 1.008-ish. I mashed this beer about 3 degrees warmer than I usually do on my thermometers (I love mashing at 63°C, this was mashed at 66°C), which I guess shows in the 2 gravity points higher FG. I did the 1.050 gravity (I actually aimed for 1.052) to give the yeast a bit more to chew on, and it seems to have done the trick.

I have 6 or 7 bottles in a box in the cupboard with a heat blanket on them now to see how they carbonate. I'll also be doing a room temp vs cold conditioning test on two of these bottles, similar to the video currently on my YT channel, but an updated one with a bit more brewing below my belt. But that's for later.