Lager vs Kveik: The Test

[Toxxyc]

Alrighty, Friday afternoon I couldn't hold my anticipation for this beer and I opened one of the bottled beers. To be clear, this has been carbonating in the bottle under heat since Monday morning, giving me around 5 days of carbonation. I have done this before with other ale yeasts and typically the beers are fairly carbonated by this stage, albeit really "green".

However, this beer was almost completely flat. It had a really faint "pst" when I opened the swingtop, so there is pressure, but it was terribly low. I've read elsewhere that Lutra (or Kveik as a whole, for that matter) doesn't really like bottle conditioning after the cold crash, but I didn't ever expect it to happen to me. I've got the rest of the bottles now at room temp, and I'll take another look this coming weekend.

Has anyone else here ever had this happen?

Anyway, onto the beer, I'm not sure if this is due to the yeast used, or perhaps the carbonation drop was diluted and not properly fermented by the residual yeast, but the beer was fairly sweet. The hop character, same as with the hydrometer sample I tested, was very subdued and hidden under a fresh, soft and fruity note that I'm not at all opposed to, it just doesn't fit the beer style at all.

Overall, it's a good tasting beer, the bottled Kveik version of it, at least. Carbonation in the bottle is just an issue, which is something cool to have on hand for the future video I have planned for two of these bottles. Can't wait to see how the next few weeks work on the beers in the kegs.

That reminds me, I need new post seals before I can carbonate or tap these kegs...

 

[Miraculix]

Alrighty, Friday afternoon I couldn't hold my anticipation for this beer and I opened one of the bottled beers. To be clear, this has been carbonating in the bottle under heat since Monday morning, giving me around 5 days of carbonation. I have done this before with other ale yeasts and typically the beers are fairly carbonated by this stage, albeit really "green".

However, this beer was almost completely flat. It had a really faint "pst" when I opened the swingtop, so there is pressure, but it was terribly low. I've read elsewhere that Lutra (or Kveik as a whole, for that matter) doesn't really like bottle conditioning after the cold crash, but I didn't ever expect it to happen to me. I've got the rest of the bottles now at room temp, and I'll take another look this coming weekend.

Has anyone else here ever had this happen?

Anyway, onto the beer, I'm not sure if this is due to the yeast used, or perhaps the carbonation drop was diluted and not properly fermented by the residual yeast, but the beer was fairly sweet. The hop character, same as with the hydrometer sample I tested, was very subdued and hidden under a fresh, soft and fruity note that I'm not at all opposed to, it just doesn't fit the beer style at all.

Overall, it's a good tasting beer, the bottled Kveik version of it, at least. Carbonation in the bottle is just an issue, which is something cool to have on hand for the future video I have planned for two of these bottles. Can't wait to see how the next few weeks work on the beers in the kegs.

That reminds me, I need new post seals before I can carbonate or tap these kegs...

Kveik rule number one, don't talk about the kveik club.

Rule number two, don't cold crash!!!

I've had kveik behave like that... Turn some bottles upside down, shake them a bit, put them back. Repeat every day for one week. Bottles should be good bz then. The yeast just drops out of solution too quickly and wants to be agitated manually. Especiallz if the numbers are limited due to a cold crash.

 

[Broothru]

Kveik rule number one, don't talk about the kveik club.

Rule number two, don't cold crash!!!

I've had kveik behave like that... Turn some bottles upside down, shake them a bit, put them back. Repeat every day for one week. Bottles should be good bz then. The yeast just drops out of solution too quickly and wants to be agitated manually. Especiallz if the numbers are limited due to a cold crash.

Having a similar issue with a kegged beer that fermented on Lutra. It was a BIG Strong Belgian ale (OG > 1.077) that dropped like a rock, which I transferred to the keg for spunding after 5 days, SG @ 1.018. The sample was still cloyingly sweet, and hasn't dropped but a point or two since kegging. Set the keg in an ambient 68F basement with a 15 psig spund on the Gas-in post.

Two weeks have gone by. Any suggestion? Target FG was 1.010. Should have enough sugar, but the yeast appear to have given up.

 

[Miraculix]

Having a similar issue with a kegged beer that fermented on Lutra. It was a BIG Strong Belgian ale (OG > 1.077) that dropped like a rock, which I transferred to the keg for spunding after 5 days, SG @ 1.018. The sample was still cloyingly sweet, and hasn't dropped but a point or two since kegging. Set the keg in an ambient 68F basement with a 15 psig spund on the Gas-in post.

Two weeks have gone by. Any suggestion? Target FG was 1.010. Should have enough sugar, but the yeast appear to have given up.

Either pitching more lutra or doing some strong man exercises called "shake the keg".

 

[Broothru]

Either pitching more lutra or doing some strong man exercises called "shake the keg".

I considered pitching a sachet of KV-1116 Champaign yeast. Good fermenter at room temperature, plus plays nice with high alcohol liquids. It's served me well with some wines that stalled out, later restarting and finishing in the 14~15% ABV range. Oddly, I've never repitched yeast in a stalled beer fermentation. This one had a lot of dextrose added at flameout and clearly needs to dry out. It's way too sweet as is.

 

[Toxxyc]

I wouldn't pitch champagne yeast in a finished beer. It'll go past your intended FG, almost certainly.

But yeah, the Lutra not doing it's job in the bottles here is frustrating, to say the least.

 

[Miraculix]

I considered pitching a sachet of KV-1116 Champaign yeast. Good fermenter at room temperature, plus plays nice with high alcohol liquids. It's served me well with some wines that stalled out, later restarting and finishing in the 14~15% ABV range. Oddly, I've never repitched yeast in a stalled beer fermentation. This one had a lot of dextrose added at flameout and clearly needs to dry out. It's way too sweet as is.

If you add another yeast, be sure that it cannot metabolize longer sugars. For example, cbc1 would be perfect. Most Champaign yeasts actually also fall into this category, except for the ones that don't....

 

[VikeMan]

I wouldn't pitch champagne yeast in a finished beer. It'll go past your intended FG, almost certainly.

But yeah, the Lutra not doing it's job in the bottles here is frustrating, to say the least.

Unless the champagne yeast is K1V-1116, it's not going to do anything to the original beer's residual sugars, i.e. maltotriose. Wine/Champagne yeasts in general can't use it.

 

[Broothru]

Unless the champagne yeast is K1V-1116, it's not going to do anything to the original beer's residual sugars, i.e. maltotriose. Wine/Champagne yeasts in general can't use it.

Good point. I hadn't considered targeting a specific "trose". In order to reach the OG, the recipe (scaled down from a brewery recipe) required a lot of dextrose added at flame-out. So I should probably focus on an s. Cerevisiae that is alcohol tolerant and likes simple sugars?

 

[VikeMan]

Good point. I hadn't considered targeting a specific "trose". In order to reach the OG, the recipe (scaled down from a brewery recipe) required a lot of dextrose added at flame-out. So I should probably focus on an s. Cerevisiae that is alcohol tolerant and likes simple sugars?

Well, the dextrose is long gone at this point. It would have been the first thing eaten. Your wort/beer went from 1.077 to 1.018. The remaining fermentables are maltotriose, and maybe some maltose. Yeast work from simplest to more complex sugars.

 

[Yesfan]

Perfect timing for this thread. My next brew will be fermented with Lutra or Voss depending on what I brew.

 

[Broothru]

Well, the dextrose is long gone at this point. It would have been the first thing eaten. Your wort/beer went from 1.077 to 1.018. The remaining fermentables are maltotriose, and maybe some maltose. Yeast work from simplest to more complex sugars.

So K1V-1116 would be a good yeast to finish up the unfermented complex sugars? I also thought of dosing with amyloglucosidase, but the results would be unpredictable at best, with likely a lot of harsh alcohol notes.

 

[VikeMan]

So K1V-1116 would be a good yeast to finish up the unfermented complex sugars? I also thought of dosing with amyloglucosidase, but the results would be unpredictable at best, with likely a lot of harsh alcohol notes.

I would probably use fresh yeast of the same strain as the original, unless it is already at/near its ABV tolerance limit. You could use K1V-1116, but I don't know if you could predict that it will stop at (or get to) where the original strain should have. Every strain that uses maltotriose uses it to different degrees.

 

[Zambezi Special]

Perfect timing for this thread. My next brew will be fermented with Lutra or Voss depending on what I brew.

I haven't had any problems carbonating voss. But I don't cold crash. I put priming sugar per bottle. Leave at same temp as fermentation. Voss is generally carbonated after 5 days, sometimes less. Then put in fridge for minimum 2-3 days.
No experience with lutra though

 

[lumbergh]

The few times I did bottle with it, I didn't cold crash.

 

[Yesfan]

I haven't had any problems carbonating voss. But I don't cold crash. I put priming sugar per bottle. Leave at same temp as fermentation. Voss is generally carbonated after 5 days, sometimes less. Then put in fridge for minimum 2-3 days.
No experience with lutra though

I keg, so once the beer is transferred it's going to be "cold crashing". Will that matter or should I give the beer more time before transferring to kegs? Maybe "bottle condition" in the keg before sticking it in the kegerator?

 

[Zambezi Special]

I wish I could help, but the little I know about kegging is dangerous!
I'm sure someone will pitch in shortly

 

[DuncB]

I pressure ferment the kveik lager, then drop the first yeast and cold crash. Drop more yeast and then add super F finings. Then closed transfer into Keg and keep it in keg fridge.

 

[Toxxyc]

I keg, so once the beer is transferred it's going to be "cold crashing". Will that matter or should I give the beer more time before transferring to kegs? Maybe "bottle condition" in the keg before sticking it in the kegerator?

The main part of the batch is in a keg, after cold crashing, and I'll be force carbonating in the keg. I'm not sure why people naturally carbonate with sugar in a keg. It doesn't make sense to me. It takes longer, the beer is warm for a much longer time and you end up with more slurry in the bottom of the keg. I don't get it.

 

[VikeMan]

I'm not sure why people naturally carbonate with sugar in a keg.

A few reasons to naturally carbonate in a keg...
- All CO2 cylinders or regulators already in use
- Cost (maybe, depending on local CO2 prices)
- Cloning. For example, Saison Dupont is a very highly carbonated beer that gets a not insignificant chunk of its ABV from refermentation. You could brew it with more malt (or sugar added to the boil/primary) instead of adding sugar to carbonate, but it wouldn't be the same beer. I've done Dupont clones both ways.

 

[Miraculix]

+ fear of oxygen within the co2, for example if long term storage, aging in the keg is practiced

 

[Toxxyc]

Not sure if I posted this before, but back to the test. I bottled a few of those Lutra beer and after 2 weeks in the bottle they're nicely carbonated now. I have already popped a few. They are fantastic. It's starting to show hints of a German Pilsner, which I made, but it seems like the fruity note it imparts delivers a perceived sweetness to the beer, which in turn drastically hides the bitterness in there. It's aging up well, though. Interesting.

 

[Toxxyc]

Alright, we're about a week away from when the kegs are to be cracked, and as luck would have it we're taking a trip down to the coast with family and friends and I'd like to take a few of these beers with me. As a result, I'm going to be working this week on getting the first pours from the kegs to get rid of the sediment in the bottom so that I can fill a few bottles of clear beer. I won't be taking too many as I want a good amount to age a bit longer, so I think 6 of each should be fine for a taster or two.

Anyway, I'm REALLY looking forward to this. There's one bottle in the fridge I can touch still from the Kveik batch (the last two bottles are for my cold conditioning vs warm conditioning experiment re-visit I'll do soon) that I'll probably kill this weekend, and I can just say that if that's the worst of it, I've made a bunch of way more terrible beers in the past.

Definitely adding this recipe to my permanent lineup, even if it's just to have a keg or two lagering at all times. I'll keep you guys updated!

As a PS: The cold vs warm experiment is one that I did when I first started brewing. I made the video, a ****** quality one in 2019, and I've been asked numerous times by a ton of guys to re-do it, so that's what I'm planning. I got more experience, more time and I believe that'll produce more significant results this time. I actually can't wait!

 

[Toxxyc]

And another update. Yesterday, shortly after I posted the above we saw a doc with the youngest, and was promptly admitted to hospital with him. He has confirmed Rotavirus (as do we all, apparently) and suspected Enterovirus as well as an antibiotic-resistant bacterial middle ear infection. Doc said he doesn't think we'll make the trip to the coast.

However, that didn't stop me from trying the last Kveik-fermented beer I had in the bottle last night. Mistake in hindsight as I puked my lungs out this morning (thanks, Rotavirus), but hey, it's one hell of a tasty beer. In the bottle it's closing in on 5.35% ABV, but it's not drinking like it. It drinks like a light lager, something along the lines of a light American lager (a style I'm VERY happy with) but with the aging the hop character that was hidden by the Kveik, as well as the IBUs that was hidden by the Kveik's fruity perceived sweetness is sloooowly starting to come to the fore.

I can just say one thing - I'm a HUGE fan of German Pilsner recipes. Doesn't matter how it's fermented, it seems, the results you achieve with Pilsner malt (or in this case Extra Pale, which is the same thing), a little bit of Dextrin (this might actually explain my slightly lower attenuation I measured, didn't think of this) and Eastern European hops is just amazing. It's hoppy, but not IPA or NEIPA hoppy. It's smooth, crisp (yes, even the Kveik beer) and just drinkable as hell. Like a fresh spring in the middle of a desert to a wary traveler. I'm a big, big fan. From now on, it'll be a constant supply in my keezer, decision made.

 

[Miraculix]

You and your family get well soon! Had to google that one.. does not sound like much fun.

 

[JohnSand]

Sorry you're all under the weather, feel better soon.

 

[Toxxyc]

You and your family get well soon! Had to google that one.. does not sound like much fun.

Heh, thanks mate. We got more tests this morning, and so far he has:

Rotavirus,
Adenovirus,
Metapneumovirus, and
Parainfluenza 3 virus,

alongside some other bacterial stuff as mentioned. In light of the fact that I'm no better tonight, I'm not going to be tapping these beers tonight. I'll be doing it once I feel better. I'm on a shaken soft drink tonight, just till the tummy is better

 

[hopjuice_71]

Heh, thanks mate. We got more tests this morning, and so far he has:

Rotavirus,
Adenovirus,
Metapneumovirus, and
Parainfluenza 3 virus,

alongside some other bacterial stuff as mentioned. In light of the fact that I'm no better tonight, I'm not going to be tapping these beers tonight. I'll be doing it once I feel better. I'm on a shaken soft drink tonight, just till the tummy is better

I'm sorry you and your family are feeling poorly. That sounds like a horrible cocktail of viruses, but it is important to remember that humans are constantly transiently, or permanently, "colonized" by numerous viruses, including many that cause disease. Mostly likely a bunch of healthy people reading this post would also test positive for some of those on your list .. .. just to try to put you at some ease.

 

[Zambezi Special]

Hope you all get well soon!

 

[Toxxyc]

Alrighty, we're discharged just this morning. Over the weekend though I felt a bit better and tapped the kegs. Now, notes before I put out my first comments on the beers:

1. Both kegs have now been "lagering" for 4 weeks.
2. Both kegs were fined with the same amount of gelatin from the same pack, using the same method, at the same temperature and everything else the same, around 2 weeks ago.
3. Both kegs have been sitting at 17 PSI for 2 weeks now. Pressure in the two is absolutely identical, as they're connected to a single CO2 tank with a single regulator, just a gas line splitter between the two kegs.
4. I tapped around 250ml from both kegs to get the dregs out first, and after that the clear beer started flowing.

Now, onto the notes. First beer tested was the one fermented with Lutra:

First, clear, almost crystal at this point. The first thing that struck me was the definitive and instantly identifiable Kveik "rotten" aroma on the beer. It shined in the head, and it continued throughout the beer. This specific flavour vented off with time, as it did with other Kveik beers I made as well. It seems to be a characteristic of Kveiks as I've picked it up in Voss, Oslo and now again in Lutra as well. It's something I'm now expecting from Kveik.

Second, it is well carbonated. There are a stream of bubbles rising in the middle of the glass (where the glass is etched to entice bubbles forming inside to make it present better) and they rise fairly quickly. Head is thick and foamy. Lacing on the glass presented OK and head lasted all the way down to the last sip, which took about 30 minutes to get to (I got busy, and it's a big glass).

Next up, the flavour. There's definitely still a fruity aroma and flavour in the beer, albeit toned down after 4 weeks in the keg. It still hides the IBUs in the beer and the beer is not as bitter as I bittered it at. I'm not sure if it's the yeast flavour or the warm fermenting coupled with the aggressive venting of CO2 that pushed the hop flavour and aroma from the beer, but it's very subdued. The earthy, floral and almost spicy notes I hoped for are literally "earthy fruit" at this stage, and that's it.

Conclusion: It's a good beer. Not one of my best, but it's good and still very drinkable. It's got a fairly full mouthfeel and a creamy, almost oily texture to it that's hard to describe, and I'm not sure if it's the correct way to do so. Yeast presence is identifiable immediately and it's not as clean as they'd claim. At all. I would not use Lutra again to make a beer like this, but I think this yeast will do wonders in a NEIPA, for example.

The second beer was the one fermented with Diamond Lager:

First thing I noticed is that the beer is ever so slightly less clear than the Lutra batch. It's still clear, also almost crystal, but it seemed to have a tiny tiny slight haze to it. I'll do a side by side a bit later and take pictures of the two to compare properly, but this I did notice.

Second, it seems to be less carbonated than the Lutra batch. This has me stumped. I can't figure it out. As per my notes above, they should be identically carbonated, but they're not. It's still carbonated, but there are less bubbles, they rise slower and the beer seems to "hold on" to the CO2 in it better than the Lutra beer. Why? I can't tell you. Head was less but it still stuck around to the bottom of the glass, with decent (but fine) lacing. Head is also creamier than the Lutra beer's.

Then, flavour. This was interesting. Same wort, same everything, but the difference in yeast shined here. There seems to be a slight sour note which I expect to age out, but the hops are way more up front. IBUs jump out at you and the beer is fairly bitter (which I aimed for). There's earthy, floral and spicy hops everywhere, although I have to say I miss a bit of sweetness from the malt. I should have upped the dextrin, or used a light crystal malt for some added sweetness here, or mashed a bit higher, but eh, so you learn.

Conclusion: Diamond Lager does what it does. It's clean, it's clear, it's good. I love it and it's becoming a staple yeast of mine. That's about all there's to say about it.

Finally, as a last note, I'll repeat this test a few times in the next few months as the beers continue to improve in the keg, and I'll specifically aim for the flavours pointed out above to see how they react to age. Stay tuned!

PS: I think I should also do a side by side test in a video and post to YouTube. It's interesting to see.