ZRedIROC
Active Member
I've seen some posts about harvesting kveik slurry but I've read you can harvest during peak krausen also. Has anyone harvested early or done both? Slurry seems safer but don't know if there is a benefit to doing it early.
Kveik harvesting time?
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smata67
Well-Known Member
Best to refer to the Kveik Registry for preference as to top or bottom harvesting for your particular Kveik. Some of the listings also have the number of hours into fermentation to top crop. Hornindal, for example, states 40 hours. Opshaug, on the other hand, does not have that listed. But another Stranda strain (#41), has 20 hours. WL site has 30 hours for Opshaug. That is what I'm going with. Very likely that the crop time is more critical for yeast blends (to duplicate harvest time of the originator and preserve the proper strain proportions). The Kveiks we are using are single strain, so possibly not an issue.
http://www.garshol.priv.no/download/farmhouse/kveik.html
http://www.garshol.priv.no/download/farmhouse/kveik.html
ZRedIROC
Active Member
Thanks guys. I didn't think about the timing maybe not mattering on a pure stain. I haven't seen too many posts of people cropping from the top.
Great info. Do you have a reference on the theory behind the harvesting location (top vs bottom) and timing? I intended on saving/drying some Hornindal from a slurry in the near future, but of course am now paranoid about it, and this is the first I've heard of optimal harvesting locations/times.
location and timing of harvesting is only critical if using a mixed culture (different strains may express themselves at different rates so you may end up changing your population composition if not done consistently). With regards to top vs bottom cropping and a single strain, it really shouldn't matter as long as your sanitation is pretty good. All the kveiks I've used thus far are single strain and I usually just dry the yeast cake on parchment sitting on a heating pad in my closet. Successive pitches of my dried yeast straight from freezer to wort have fermented just as good as the original pitch.
smata67
Well-Known Member
I have not found any info as to why there is a preference for top or bottom for specific Kveiks, perhaps it is buried in the blogs? If you look at the table there is only one single strain listed and it is listed as top cropped. For multi-strained, most of them are indicated as top cropped, but there are several listed as bottom. The table is documenting how the source harvested the yeast, could just be tradition. Might also reflect what is in their recipe, if a ton of crud is settling at the bottom, it might be difficult to retreive the yeast. Using our ingredients (they sometimes use some exotic stuff), I don't see why we could not easily harvest from the bottom. I filter out trub and spent hops prior to dumping into the fermenter and my yeast cakes are relatively clean. I do plan on top cropping for kicks, though, my first Kveik brew is going into the fermenter today.
RPh_Guy
Bringing Sour Back
To preserve the integrity of a mixed culture you need to maintain consistency in the way it is used, harvested, and stored.
Otherwise you're changing the ratio of the microbes and the resulting flavor. That's not necessarily a bad thing, but maybe not what we want.
Does that make it a non-issue when a lab has isolated a culture from the microbes, right? For example - Omega's Hornindal (OYL-091). Could that, in theory, mean top or bottom harvesting is okay?
RPh_Guy
Bringing Sour Back
That's correct, but you probably get the healthiest yeast from the top, FWIW. Bottom harvesting an isolate won't change the culture.
Here's what I just harvested like 10 minutes ago. It's in the oven to dry.
ZRedIROC
Active Member
Would you use that full amount to dry for the next pitch direct? Or would you use only some of the flakes with a starter?
ZRedIROC
Active Member
Only a couple of the grams for direct pitching?
Just wondering how that is enough. I know the kveik does well under pitching but it seems like a really small amount. If the half life of slurry harvest is 3 months wouldn't the half life of the dry be days? Or does drying some how increase the half life?
Just wondering how that is enough. I know the kveik does well under pitching but it seems like a really small amount. If the half life of slurry harvest is 3 months wouldn't the half life of the dry be days? Or does drying some how increase the half life?
Soulshine2
Well-Known Member
ill bet your house smells great when youre drying yeast.
RPh_Guy
Bringing Sour Back
Kveik is exceptionally stable due to its genetics and most kveik cultures are used to being dried. There are claims that dried kveik is viable for 20 years.
The batch from which I harvested this yeast was 2.7 gal. I direct pitched 0.53 grams of dried yeast that was mailed to me back in May.
It doesn't have much odor. Just a little yeasty aroma when you're really close to it.
Thank you for sharing this resource.
It’s not like baking bread...
that is a great aroma to most people.Dried kveik is very roughly 10-20 billion cells per gram (or so I've read). If you crop from the bottom you're more likely to get close to 10 billion/gram since you have more dried grain material and dead cells, whereas if you crop from the top you're likely closer to 20 billion/gram. I harvest the yeast cake because I ferment in carboys so top-cropping is much more difficult with my setup. I usually make 2.5-3 gal batches and pitch one gram of my bottom-harvested kveik. This comes out to be about 1/10th normal pitching rates (pitching 10 billion cells when most calculators would recommend 100 billion). Sounds like @RPh_Guy and I pitch at about the same rates, using ~0.5 gram in a 2.7 gal batch using top-cropped dried kveik.
RPh_Guy
Bringing Sour Back
For what it's worth, I absolutely love my Fermonsters (I have a bunch of them in various sizes).
https://www.morebeer.com/products/fermonster-3-gallon-ported-carboy-spigot-included.html
https://www.morebeer.com/products/plastic-spigot-bucket-sediment-block.html
A #10 stopper fits.
Here's the kveik beer set at 92°F with an Inkbird 308 (normally attached to a fridge) and a Fermwrap heater.
TandemTails
Well-Known Member
wrong thread, whoops
smata67
Well-Known Member
Parchment paper is actually a pain in the ass to work with, especially with something as light as krausen. So here is my fix, use magnets to fix it in place. You will have to have a steel pan, of course. I got these from Harbor Freight for basically nothing. Unlike most things from there, they actually work. And did not break upon first use.
This is Opshaug cropped at 48 hours. Four scoops from a ladle. I did not want to interfere with the ongoing fermentation, which is quite active now and has been since about 20 hours from pitching. My oven has two lights and I'm getting a 95F temperature with my remote reading barbecue thermometer. And yes, smells awesome every time I open the oven door to check up on progress.
This is Opshaug cropped at 48 hours. Four scoops from a ladle. I did not want to interfere with the ongoing fermentation, which is quite active now and has been since about 20 hours from pitching. My oven has two lights and I'm getting a 95F temperature with my remote reading barbecue thermometer. And yes, smells awesome every time I open the oven door to check up on progress.
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Got Hornindal in a half gallon jar.
Got Hornindal in a half gallon jar.
RPh_Guy
Bringing Sour Back
Is there a difference between waxed paper and parchment paper?
I had no problems at all with my waxed paper.
smata67
Well-Known Member
ALERT! Five hours into drying and I have measured a temperature of 150F in the oven! This particular oven has 2 lights (probably 40W, have not checked). But I imagine that even a single bulb could get quite hot over time. I have found that propping the top of the door open by about 1/2" is keeping a 110F temperature, which seems about right.
smata67
Well-Known Member
The wax on wax paper can melt at 99F. Parchment paper is what is usually used in the oven, wife prefers it over aluminum foil.
RPh_Guy
Bringing Sour Back
Sheesh, powerful lights! Not sure that batch is still alive.
smata67
Well-Known Member
The good news is that it dried out very nicely overnight. The bad news is that it is all dead. 140F will do it, apparently.
smata67
Well-Known Member
Other oven is holding 85F. Man, drying at this temperature is going to take forever! I thought of putting an incandescent lamp in there with a controller, only to discover I no longer own any lamps that hold incandescent bulbs!
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HaySed
Member
I found this blog where the author does testing over a 6 month period and found a viability drop of only 6% to 8% per month from dry kveik yeast.
http://suigenerisbrewing.com/index.php/2019/08/28/drying-kveik-the-grand-finale/
RPh_Guy
Bringing Sour Back
Keep in mind this experiment was dried slurry.
Dried yeast harvested from kräusen would very likely have better viability.
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HaySed
Member
That is awesome!
I don't want to hijack this treat. I do have a quick question. Anyone knows if juniper berries work the same antibacterial effect as the branches like they use in the kveik regions?
RPh_Guy
Bringing Sour Back
Does juniper have any anti-microbial properties?
I thought it was for flavor.
Edit: Hmm I guess it does. However, it seems to have rather high MICs compared to how much would be added to a beer ... And it seems to have a higher anti-microbial effect on yeast than on bacteria. At least on first glance at the studies I could find. Too intoxicated to read further right now.
I thought it was for flavor.
Edit: Hmm I guess it does. However, it seems to have rather high MICs compared to how much would be added to a beer ... And it seems to have a higher anti-microbial effect on yeast than on bacteria. At least on first glance at the studies I could find. Too intoxicated to read further right now.
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Apparently juniper infusions have been used for many hundreds of years (if not, thousands) for cleaning purposes. It actually wasn't traditionally used just to flavor beer...it eventually made its way in as people liked the balance and taste it provided. It can be assumed that some of the same antimicrobial properties of the plant can be found in any part of it, but I doubt there is much info regarding the specific amounts. I would say go ahead and assume there is a little but don't solely rely on that.
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