Kettle Sour

[fendersrule]

I decided to do an all-grain 2-3 gallon batch using my hemp bag in one of my girlfriend's pots. I'll probably dunk sparge since it's all on a stove top, or just omit sparging all together and just raise my grain bill to assume 60% efficiency. I'm going to reserve my 20 gallon pots for serious batch sizes. I'll plan to use US-05 yeast by the end. Something about 6% ABV would fit the bill pretty well...we like our beers to have some kick in the pants.

What is a really dead simple sour recipe that we could pitch bacteria at 70F? I think it's best we not mess with fruits/flavorings this go around, just something to get our feet wet with a sour ale. Not looking for anything extravagant, just a simple grain bill that would make a good sour beer that's easier for her to try. I'd welcome a step-by-step guide. I don't test my water (yet), but I know that tap water tastes pretty good here...not the best, but my beers have been pretty impressionable in a good way.

I looked at my city water report and my PH is "common" at 7.0 Ph. It's a little on the high side, but it's not bad. See below, which was from a couple years ago.

I'd welcome any hand-holding here. I'd take pics a long the way. The girlfriend wants to take a break from making her delicious ciders (they are VERY good), and wants to try a simple sour ale. The girlfriend LOVES the aroma of hops more than the "bitter" taste. She's hard to please, but as long as she tastes sour and smells hop aroma, she will be pleased. Help!

 

[RPh_Guy]

What is a really dead simple sour recipe that we could pitch bacteria at 70F?

50% 2-row 50% white wheat malt.
Mash at 155°F for an hour.
Chill to 70°F.
Pitch yeast and Lacto plantarum.
Ferment as normal.
Optional: dry hop with the hop/amount of your choice after fermentation. (0.75oz of Czech Saaz?)
Package as normal.

Super easy and it'll give you something like a Berliner.

FYI Water pH doesn't matter. The water alkalinity matters so that you can get the mash pH in the desired range.
The ion ranges listed by that report are too wide to be helpful. You can send a water sample to a lab for analysis or use straight RO/distilled water as a blank slate.

 

[fendersrule]

Interesting....you pitch yeast AND bacteria at the same time....I thought you pitched lacto first, then wait 2 days, then boil and proceed with regular brewing logic.

Learning a lot already!

So basically:

50% 2-row 50% white wheat malt ratio
Mash at 155°F for an hour (depending on what your intended FG would be)
BOIL 1 HOUR?
Chill to 70°F. (which I would do naturally or on ice due to small batch)
Pitch yeast and Lacto plantarum. (how much lacto?)
Ferment as normal. (yep, 10-14 days)
Optional: dry hop with the hop/amount of your choice after fermentation. (0.75oz of Czech Saaz?) (sounds good)
Package as normal.

 

[RPh_Guy]

I thought you pitched lacto first, then wait 2 days, then boil and proceed with regular brewing logic.

There are several different methods, and variations on those. This is the most simple.

Boiling isn't necessary, but feel free to include that step. Don't add hops prior to souring.

Pitch about 50-200 billion Lacto cells.
Anything with L. plantarum is good: OYL-605, TYB Lacto blend, GoodBelly, Swanson, Renew Life Ultimate Flora, etc.

Cheers

 

[fendersrule]

When I go to pitch yeast, I would have had to already have bittered up the beer with hops...

Here's what I'm thinking. Please let me know what you guys think, and I can print this off for my GF.

Hoppy Kettle Sour Wheat Ale
65% efficiency
OG: 1.067
FG: 1.017
IBU: 50
5 Gallons, ~6 gallon boil.

Grains:
6.5 lb 2-row
6 lb white wheat
1 lb crystal 15

Hops:
1.5oz cascade @ 60 min
1.5oz amarillo @ 15 min
0.5oz cascade dry hop for 7 days
0.5oz amarillo dry hop for 7 days

1) Fill kettle to pre-boil water level. Achieve the appropriate strike water temp, probably around 158F or so (use a calculator). Clip on hemp bag. Stir in crushed grains into bag while stirring. Mash for 153F: cover/insulate pot for 60 minutes. Pull bag out and let it drip completely. Rinse with 170F water (optional). Squeeze if you want (optional).

2) Boil wort for 10-15 minutes to sanitize. Put chiller in kettle prior to boil so that chiller gets sanitized. Chill wort to down to less than 90F (option), or just let the kettle sit on the counter for a 15-20 hours to cool naturally. Personally, I'd want to chill it to hurry it up.

<take refractometer reading here to give you an idea what your OG will be>

3) Pitch 200 billion lacto cells. Do we stir or just pitch it on top? Put saran wrap on the kettle and wait for 48 hours. Do not disturb.

4) Remove saran wrap and boil the wort, follow hop schedule, chill, and precede to fermentation per usual.

 

[cactusgarrett]

When I go to pitch yeast, I would have had to already have bittered up the beer with hops...

This is a reason to kettle sour, since you can follow a typical bittering regimen with a boil after souring. If you co-pitch (sacc & lacto), you're resigned to the fact that you have <5 IBU or you won't get souring. You may not be making a berliner, but the process is the same (just bitter during your second boil, as with your step 4). http://www.milkthefunk.com/wiki/Berliner_Weissbier

2. Chill to 90°F - less chance for something bad to grab hold (yeast or otherwise).
3. Just like yeast - pitch the lacto; no stirring needed.

 

[fendersrule]

Thanks Cactus. Sounds like my step-by-step plan is right on the money....and we can begin to make a sour as soon as this weekend!

Just like when we give our cats flora, we break open the capsules. I assume the same here. If a single capsule has 10 Billion units, we'd simply break open 5-20 of them. Sounds fun!

It will be her first beer...I'll be her brew-mate for this one.

 

[RPh_Guy]

Do you folks like sour beers around 50+ IBU?

 

[fendersrule]

Your right...that's too high. A lot of the sours I drink actually have aroudn 8-17 IBU...I would have thought much higher...

Maybe I should redo the hop schedule so that I can get somewhere in this range instead.

What about dry-hopping. Is that weird for a sour?

 

[cactusgarrett]

If the capsules are fresh, about 1 opened capsule per gallon of wort. You're better off dry hopping for hop character than having a bitter sour. Most people don't like the sour + bitter combo, but dry hops allow for more of the flavor/aroma to come through without the bitterness. Marries better with the sour.

 

[fendersrule]

Thanks! I’ll probably just keep with a single hop sour and land around 7ish IBU. Then dry hop the rest of the bag.

One capsule per 1 gallon seems easy to remember!

I can understand now why people would dial pitch!

 

[Andrew Hodgson]

+1 for dry hop only for flavor.

 

[fendersrule]

Thanks guys. Really helpful! I ordered a two pack of L. Plantarum. 10 billion CFU a capsule. Should I still use 1 capsule per gallon or should I up that to 2 capsules per gallon? I think you guys said that more bacteria doesn’t mean more sour...much like how yeast works...

Do you guys recommend a certain IBU, even though I’m doing the two stage approach? Otherwise I’ll keep it around 10 IBU and count in hop bombing posts fermentation.

Other than that, I think this is straight forward! If this goes good I’ll start adding fruit flavors!

 

[cactusgarrett]

For kettle sours, nor more than 5 IBU (with plantarum). Other strains can be more hop tolerant with training, but not plantarum. Price you pay for the ease of low temp ability. To me, no point in using 5 IBU when you can use 0 then add in some bitterness or flavor/aroma during the second boil or dry hop, respectively.

 

[mirthfuldragon]

To me, no point in using 5 IBU when you can use 0 then add in some bitterness or flavor/aroma during the second boil or dry hop, respectively.

I agree. Did a kettle sour, second boil was 20 minutes with 1oz Citra @ 20 and @ 5, came out a grapefruit bomb, to the point that my younger sister's hipster friends asked me how much grapefruit I added.

 

[SanPancho]

For the record, there are in fact commercial breweries that use grain for their lacto source. Historically this was done by making sauergut, used for ph adjustment in germany. They then use it to inoculate wort. And there are commercial brewers that pitch lacto as a copitch as well as post primary. Again, germans and/or traditionalists. There is someone here on this forum that has a write up on his process, one of the earliest lodo guys around here as i recall. Not much different than a normal starter. Sauergut is also useful for o2 scavenging if you want hoppy sours, or just hoppy stuff in general.

For the record- Lacto cultures can technically go below 3. Have personally seen one at 2.9ish before. Lab tested. But its an outlier and not to be expected- 3.1 to 3.3 is generally the lower bound, for practical purposes.

You can in fact sour even with ibus present, just have to know what bugs to use. Its obviously not plantarum.

 

[S-Met]

came out a grapefruit bomb, to the point that my younger sister's hipster friends asked me how much grapefruit I added.

Actually snorted while reading this. Glad I wasn't taking a sip of coffee or it would have gone out my nose.

Just curious, do your sister's friends have neck-beards too. Just trying to complete the picture.

 

[mirthfuldragon]

Actually snorted while reading this. Glad I wasn't taking a sip of coffee or it would have gone out my nose.

Just curious, do your sister's friends have neck-beards too. Just trying to complete the picture.

There was an attempt at it. Plastic-rim glasses, Ironic low-top Chucks, tall Ironic socks, skinny jeans that ended about 3" above the ankle. He liked my beer so can't fault his taste too much. The lacto acidity caused it to finish a little high, like 1.014, where the same yeast starter on the same grainbill that was not kettle-soured (split batch) finished at 1.010. It was a nice beer and the residual sweetness cut the sourness a fair amount, so it was sour without the pucker. They killed that keg first, over a too-malty amber and a Hallertau blanc pale ale that was too delicate for my taste. Fun party though.

 

[fendersrule]

For kettle sours, nor more than 5 IBU (with plantarum). Other strains can be more hop tolerant with training, but not plantarum. Price you pay for the ease of low temp ability. To me, no point in using 5 IBU when you can use 0 then add in some bitterness or flavor/aroma during the second boil or dry hop, respectively.

Thanks! Definitely 0 IBU for souring, but I'm kinda wondering what IBU should I shoot for during the boil? I'm guessing you guys are going to recommend ~5 IBU. My girlfriend now doesn't want to dry hop....so I'll use .5oz of Cascades only.

I'm thinking I'll probably get about 76% or so attenuation at 153F. I get about 85% attenuation at 149F with US-05. So I lowered my estimated FG down a little bit because I think at a 153F mash she may fall a bit lower. Maybe not. Who knows, the girlfriend may want a slightly sweeter one and we may mash at 155F instead.

Here's our updated recipe. Feel free to make any additional improvements. I don't plan to add a Whirlfloc because we like our sours a little hazy. Would you guys also confirm my Plantarum CFM count?

Kettle Sour Wheat Ale
68% efficiency
OG: 1.065
FG: 1.016
IBU: 4.8
5 Gallons, ~6 gallon boil.
Est. ABV: 6.4%

Grains:
6 lb 2-row
6 lb white wheat
.5 lb crystal 60

SRM: 7.1

Hops:
0.5oz cascade @ 15 min
1.5oz cascade dry hop for 7 days (optional)


1) Fill kettle to pre-boil water level. Achieve the appropriate strike water temp, probably around 158F or so (use a calculator). Clip on hemp bag. Stir in crushed grains into bag while stirring. Mash for 153F: cover/insulate pot for 60 minutes. Pull bag out and let it drain completely. Rinse with 170F water (optional). Squeeze if you want (optional).

2) Boil wort for 10-15 minutes to sanitize. Put chiller in kettle prior to boil so that chiller gets sanitized. Chill wort to down to less than 90F.

<take refractometer/hydrometer reading here to give you an idea what your OG will be. If low, add some DME after souring before the next boil.>

3) Pitch 6 capsules (60 billion total) of lacto cells into 6 gallon wort. Put saran wrap on the kettle and wait for 48 hours. Do not disturb.

4) Remove saran wrap and boil the wort, follow hop schedule, chill, and precede to fermentation per usual.

 

[cactusgarrett]

I would take a grav reading before AND after souring. That way, if something goes weird, you can see if you got any unwanted fermentation happening during the souring process (indicative of some type of infection).

 

[fendersrule]

GREAT idea. Other than that, everything looks good?

Mainly, 60 Billion CFM seem right?

Anything else else during the boil you'd recommend me doing to improve the quality of beer?

Does the "white wheat" need to go through the mill? I'm assuming this means "Flaked white wheat". I didn't run it through the mill last time I used this grain. Just put it in the bag along with my crushed barley.

 

[RPh_Guy]

CFU = Colony-Forming Units
Remember to store the Lacto in the fridge.

Wheat malt needs to be milled. It may require a tighter gap.
Flaked wheat is not wheat malt. It does not need milled because it is already crushed into flakes.

 

[fendersrule]

Great. I'l used flaked white for this.

OK...60 CFU it is. I may put in a couple extra for good measure.

 

[fendersrule]

We're off to the races!

Girlfriend wanted to make a sour tonight, so we did it.

First time doing the BIAB technique. I have a new 20G pot, but we used the old 15G pot instead since we were just making a single 5G batch. Plenty of space.

She wanted to mash at 152sh. We only lost 3F over 60 minutes being about 45F outside, wrapped with a sleeping bag. Not bad.

First time use of my cereal killer grain mill, and it just created the perfect looking grain. Holy hell, it looks good.

OG of my recipe is 1.061. We came out to 1.053 (refract) before boil. I'm using a 20 year old pot for this which is wider, so no doubt we should nail or intended OG when the time comes before we pitch the yeast. I'm feeling really good that that will land about 6.5% with around 1.012 FG. We'll see.

Grain bill:

8.8 Lbs 2 row
.5 Lbs Cara 80L
1.8 Lbs flaked wheat

Pitched 9 capsules (180 CFU) of bacteria in kettle @ 80F. wrapped it tight. Sitting at room temp.

Will give it 48 hours-ish, and proceed to boil...I'm thinking a 45 min boil max whil adding a tad bit out hops, and then pretend it's beer at that point. Planning to shoot for <5 IBU.

We may add 1oz of tangerine <15 min of boil, and maybe 1oz of orange peel at the same time to give it some character.

Sound good?

 

[fendersrule]

Question: how long should my second boil be if my first one was 15 minutes? Do I simply just boil for 45 min?

 

[Andrew Hodgson]

I think whatever you want to do for the second boil is fine depending on volume/abv targets additions etc. Haven't used orange peel before but I must say I have used tangerine peel and really like the flavors it imparts.

 

[TwistedGray]

I think whatever you want to do for the second boil is fine depending on volume/abv targets additions etc. Haven't used orange peel before but I must say I have used tangerine peel and really like the flavors it imparts.

The second boil is to kill the lacto (and add stuff if you want) so add accordingly. The boil itself though, again, is just to kill the lacto.

...just wanted to make sure you are aware of the function of that. Note: Some people do not do a second boil and instead just bitch the yeast, for whatever that's worth. Several ways to skin the cat...or rather, milk da funk!

 

[fendersrule]

Awesome. I’m kinda wanting to measure my efficiency since I’m using a new BIAB process (and a new mill) so what I’ll do is boil for 45 minutes so I can have an accurate indicator of efficiency giving me a combined boil of 60 minutes.

I have a hunch that I am well above 70%. Heck, I may be around 80%. Best I got with my previous method is 60%, so I’m very happy!

Good to know that all the second boil is there to kill the lacto and strictly for additions. So 15 minutes would suffice given the additions and very very low hopping, but going longer won’t hurt.

 

[Andrew Hodgson]

The second boil is to kill the lacto (and add stuff if you want) so add accordingly. The boil itself though, again, is just to kill the lacto.

...just wanted to make sure you are aware of the function of that. Note: Some people do not do a second boil and instead just bitch the yeast, for whatever that's worth. Several ways to skin the cat...or rather, milk da funk!

Yeah I was just giving the no answer answer. I don't even kill the poor lacto anymore it's our friend and should stay around for the entire experience! Blame RPH guy he converted me away from a lacto-murderer.

 

[fendersrule]

I’m thinking she wants to add tangerine and lemon (or orange peel) for 15 minutes of the boil too. 2oz combined total.