Kellerbier vs Helles vs Lager

[abrewer12345]

hey all-
i'm sure this has been discussed before but i'm trying to get to the TRUE bottom of the differences between a keller, helles and traditional lager. to my understanding, a keller lagers for less time, is that correct? if so, does it turn into a regular lager in the keg if it sits for an additional 4 weeks?! hah

any details on this, or opinions, please share. i enjoy ALL of these styles, but as a brewer, i like to know more details about what i'm drinking/making. cheers!

 

[lumpher]

Here is a good and short write-up of Kellerbier.
https://learn.kegerator.com/kellerbier/They are more malty, hoppy, and have more mouthfeel, and are not filtered or clarified in any way. They are fermented and served from the same cask, traditionally.

 

[jdauria]

A kellerbier and Helles ARE traditional lagers. Lager means beers made with bottom fermenting yeast, ie Saccharomyces pastorianus. A Kellerbier is just a young lager that has not been clarified and many times it's a young cloudy Helles, thought it could be any other type of lager also, but usually they are either young Helles or young Pils. You will see commercial versions will say KellerHell or KellerPils A Helles goes through normal lager process and is normally clear. So a KellerHell and a Helles can be the same exact recipe, only difference is time.

To be honest thought, I think a lot of American breweries just ship out cloudy lagers and use the term Kellerbier as an excuse to not spend time and money on lagering the beer.

 

[ntempleton]

Keller is simply a description of age and clarity - young(ish) and unfiltered. Any lager can be served as a Kellerbier. Generally speaking, Kellerbier is often a Helles.

 

[ntempleton]

I think a lot of American breweries just ship out cloudy lagers and use the term Kellerbier as an excuse to not spend time and money on lagering the beer.

Sadly this is 100% correct.

 

[abrewer12345]

A kellerbier and Helles ARE traditional lagers. Lager means beers made with bottom fermenting yeast, ie Saccharomyces pastorianus. A Kellerbier is just a young lager that has not been clarified and many times it's a young cloudy Helles, thought it could be any other type of lager also, but usually they are either young Helles or young Pils. You will see commercial versions will say KellerHell or KellerPils A Helles goes through normal lager process and is normally clear. So a KellerHell and a Helles can be the same exact recipe, only difference is time.

To be honest thought, I think a lot of American breweries just ship out cloudy lagers and use the term Kellerbier as an excuse to not spend time and money on lagering the beer.

right right- understood on the yeast. appreciate the clarity (no pun intended) on these different styles. So realistically, i could brew a lager, let it lager for 6-8 weeks and call it a lager or a helles if i wanted?

 

[friarsmith]

I like to keg and spund (or use speise) around Day 10 and drink a few pints of vibrant young Helles/Pils from around Day 24-30 then forget about the keg for a month or so and maybe add gelatin if it doesnt clear as much as I’d like. You really gain an appreciation for Noble hops in a young beer.

 

[ntempleton]

right right- understood on the yeast. appreciate the clarity (no pun intended) on these different styles. So realistically, i could brew a lager, let it lager for 6-8 weeks and call it a lager or a helles if i wanted?

Helles is a specific style of German lagerbier. Are you making a Helles?

 

[jdauria]

right right- understood on the yeast. appreciate the clarity (no pun intended) on these different styles. So realistically, i could brew a lager, let it lager for 6-8 weeks and call it a lager or a helles if i wanted?

Well it would depend on your grain bill/hops and it's flavor profile if you are brewing a Helles...but yes, Helles is one style that is a lager. I mean there are over 30 styles of lagers not including strange only found in Europe styles. Ranging from a Malty Helles, to a bitter Pilsner to a nice dark Schwarzbier or a strong Baltic Porter (the only porter that is a lager) or a dopplebock. Just like there are dozens of different ales, be it a Hefeweizen, a Stout, an IPA, or a blonde ale.

 

[abrewer12345]

Helles is a specific style of German lagerbier. Are you making a Helles?

not specifically, just learning more and more about the layers of lager styles. this all very helpful, thanks ya'll!

 

[abrewer12345]

I like to keg and spund (or use speise) around Day 10 and drink a few pints of vibrant young Helles/Pils from around Day 24-30 then forget about the keg for a month or so and maybe add gelatin if it doesnt clear as much as I’d like. You really gain an appreciation for Noble hops in a young beer.

love this idea

 

[Spartan1979]

The BJCP also has a sub category for Amber Kellerbier. I recently made one by mistake. Instead of buying a 10L Munich Malt, I bought Gambrinus' 30L Munich Malt. I couldn't figure out why it was so dark until I went back to my LHBS and saw what I had bought. But it was damn tasty. I may brew it again.

 

[hottpeper13]

I don't transfer my brews to a clean Keg because I only wash one keg per beer. So when I serve mine at a festival my Pils or Copper lager are Keller beers until the start pouring clear. LOL

 

[Miraculix]

Sadly this is 100% correct.

Same for Germany.

 

[Witherby]

The BJCP also has a sub category for Amber Kellerbier. I recently made one by mistake. Instead of buying a 10L Munich Malt, I bought Gambrinus' 30L Munich Malt. I couldn't figure out why it was so dark until I went back to my LHBS and saw what I had bought. But it was damn tasty. I may brew it again.

Amber Kellerbier is the real Kellerbier and everything else is just a pale imitation (pun intended) and marketing ploy or way to cut corners.

Franconian Kellerbier such as Mahrs Ungespundet (“unbunged”) is a direct descendent of 19th century lager brewing. Read @patto1ro on Winterbier and Sommerbier brewing in the days prerefrigeration:

http://barclayperkins.blogspot.com/2010/04/winterbier-sommerbier-part-three.html