just received old yeast

[Gregory T]

It wont be 35% after a giant starter. This isn't rocket science. If a starter is done correctly, even with a reduced number of cells to begin with, you can easily achieve the proper number of yeast. If anything, the manufacturers dates are conservative IMO, as described by Dr. White himself. I've been brewing for 25 years and have a few WL vials/packs under my bealt. I realized long ago worrying doesn't make yeast grow., it sure makes the hobby less fun, though. Cheers!

Please don’t tell me how to make my beer..I don’t want to use your pitch rate. I have once, I will never again. I am trying to dial in my Tripel. That doesn’t involve using bad pitch rates. I pitch my Belgians at 1.25. That isn’t a debate, a judgement, or up fo discussion.

 

[Gregory T]

36 hours

 

[Gregory T]

As an update. I did get a refund. And have some yeast coming from a place that guarantees it to be less than 3 months old

Unfortunately, They only had one in stock

I will step that twice up to get my 590 billion cells

 

[CWood]

It wont be 35% after a giant starter. This isn't rocket science. If a starter is done correctly, even with a reduced number of cells to begin with, you can easily achieve the proper number of yeast. If anything, the manufacturers dates are conservative IMO, as described by Dr. White himself. I've been brewing for 25 years and have a few WL vials/packs under my bealt. I realized long ago worrying doesn't make yeast grow., it sure makes the hobby less fun, though. Cheers!

Please don’t tell me how to make my beer..I don’t want to use your pitch rate. I have once, I will never again. I am trying to dial in my Tripel. That doesn’t involve using bad pitch rates. I pitch my Belgians at 1.25. That isn’t a debate, a judgement, or up fo discussion.

I just think we are talking past each other. To use your train of thought, I'm simply saying you can get the desired pitch rate using an appropriate-sized starter, even with yeast at 35% viability, most of us do that all the time. Pitch rate is a function of cell number and volume, right?. Desired cell numbers are achieved with an appropriate-sized starter as determined by one of the many calculators available. The % viability is simply an input variable to help determine size of starter wort needed to gain a desired number of cells (a la pitch rate). Worse case scenario with slightly older yeast is you have to use a little more starter wort to get the same number of cells (or a step starter), and just maybe have a little more lag time in your starter. If done correctly, the end result is the desired pitch rate regardless if 35% or 90% viability. Cheers!

 

[bierhaus15]

I have access to an Aber Countstar and will occasionally check yeast viability in WY/WL packs of varying age. I've seen 6 mo old packs with upwards of 90% viability and 2 month old tubes with less than 60% (and vice-versa). For a while I was buying expired WY/WL yeast for $1 each and most of those were still more than 40-50% viable.

 

[CWood]

Sounds about right. My guess is we often over.pitch a little using yeast calculators and "older" yeast, but I rather over pitch then under. Some of the calculators viability regressions are just too extreme (Mr. Malty and the yeast slurry option as an example). It's not a linear function, nor is the starting cell number always the same for a given date as u noted with your Aber counter. Nevertheless, I like calculators since it helps with the perception of consistancy, something we all strive for.

 

[Gregory T]

Please don’t tell me how to make my beer..I don’t want to use your pitch rate. I have once, I will never again. I am trying to dial in my Tripel. That doesn’t involve using bad pitch rates. I pitch my Belgians at 1.25. That isn’t a debate, a judgement, or up fo discussion.

I just think we are talking past each other. To use your train of thought, I'm simply saying you can get the desired pitch rate using an appropriate-sized starter, even with yeast at 35% viability, most of us do that all the time. Pitch rate is a function of cell number and volume, right?. Desired cell numbers are achieved with an appropriate-sized starter as determined by one of the many calculators available. The % viability is simply an input variable to help determine size of starter wort needed to gain a desired number of cells (a la pitch rate). Worse case scenario with slightly older yeast is you have to use a little more starter wort to get the same number of cells (or a step starter), and just maybe have a little more lag time in your starter. If done correctly, the end result is the desired pitch rate regardless if 35% or 90% viability. Cheers!

perhaps. my position is as follows

1) I have no interest in investing the time or the DME to make a 3 step starter because someone sold me 2 packs of old yeast. I'm not okay with that. I'm not going to be okay with that. Telling me to be okay with that is not gonna work

2) I'm sure it could probably make beer. I'm also sure if I left my fermentor open on the porch it would eventually make beer. That's not what I bought $60 worth of ingredients to do.

3) I have no interest in dealing with a bunch of dead yeast in my starters

4)I don't expect to pay full price and receive 5 month old yeastr

5) if the calculators can be too low they can also be too high we use them as a guide

per MoreBeer's own calculator, each contained 400 Million cells yesterday. In order to step that up would take at least three steps for each package

i did not expect to receive old yeast. Many LHBS would be selling for $1 at this point

Now that I know they can and will ship me 5 month old yeast and make me burn a starter to show they're dead, I will not be buying yeast from them ever again. Or grain for that matter. Who knows how old their grain is


they initially offered to send me new yeast
i asked for a refund and received it

 

[CascadesBrewer]

1) I have no interest in investing the time or the DME to make a 3 step starter because someone sold me 2 packs of old yeast. I'm not okay with that. I'm not going to be okay with that. Telling me to be okay with that is not gonna work

I am on board with you. It sucks to pay for 2 packs and get the equivalent of half a pack.

In my case, I don't like the idea of mail order yeast but I was not positive if my local shop would have both WLP500 and WLP530 and I assumed that a mass seller like MoreBeer would have super fresh yeast. When I was into my local shop last week they had both yeasts and their packages were 3 months newer than MoreBeer. For me MoreBeer agreed to credit me for one of my yeast packs but it was more of an issue of my order containing yeast being delivered 2 days late and spending one extra day in shipping than it was supposed to.

I like MoreBeer and I will continue to shop with them, but I will count on my local shops for liquid yeast.

 

[Gregory T]

agreed. I have had great success for non perishables. In fact this order included a March pump

Irony is MoreBeer article about generous pitching rates for Belgians




https://www.morebeer.com/articles/Belgian_Trappists_Abbey

 

[Gregory T]

I am a little obsessed with my Trippel

 

[Gregory T]

first off--.4 is 40%, so not that dead after all. Personally I do starters so I only have to buy 1 pack of yeast. If I need more then my 2L flask will hold I make a small beer (5 gal batch) , repitch that yeast and instead of tossing the starter beer I drink it. My last Triple was repitched from a Blonde Ale.

.4 would be 40 percent it wasnt .4 it was .4% which is well .4% and according to the same MoreBeer calculator, it is 0 percent today and according to the lack of activity in my starter, they are correct about the yeast they still sold me at full price

 

[IslandLizard]

per MoreBeer's own calculator, each contained 400 Million cells yesterday. In order to step that up would take at least three steps for each package

36 hours

I would dismiss MoreBeer's calculator, except for arguing a claim with them.

As mentioned before, Homebrew Dad's yeast calculator estimates haven't steered me wrong either. I have made well over a 100 starters over the years, many from 2-4 months old yeast packs, as that seems to be common availability.

Even the fresh vial from WhiteLabs' Yeast Vault I received a bit over a month ago took a good week to yield a decent starter, followed by a 2nd and 3rd one to ramp up cell count for 2 separate pitches. This was shipped under ideal conditions, no hot or frozen zones along the route.

In order to step that up would take at least three steps for each package

This makes me wonder how much experience you have in making starters. Of course you should combine both packages of low cell count and make a one starter from that. That's a factor 2 gain right there, which multiplies along...

Especially when you expect the yeast to be in poor condition, due to age, mishandling, stressed from overheating/freezing, etc. you'd actually start with a much smaller starter volume (say 0.25-1 liter) at a reduced gravity of 1.020 or even 1.010, to prevent any more stress on her weak cells. Then step up from there.
Yes, it will likely take 3 steps that way, and probably 2-3 weeks in total. But you'll end up with a good pitch of viable yeast. Save some out for a next batch, after putting all that work into it...

This is not to say you should accept MoreBeer's poor supply and handling of the case without friction.

Back in March I found 2 different WLP PurePitch sleeves of lager yeast in a 'yeast box' in the back of my fridge I never got to use. They were well over 2 years old! They both were revived with a 3 tier step-up, and yielded a large amount of yeast ready to pitch. The starter made with the older of the 2 actually lifted off several days before the younger one, she seemed to be of better overall health. This goes to prove that age doesn't mean everything.

When you often need larger pitches, as in this case, consider getting a 2nd starter setup. Remember: Factor 2...

You only need to buy 1 sleeve (really!) => make a 2 liter starter => as long you get good growth (good healthy yeast), cold crash and decant => split into 2 starters, stir concurrently => you should have your 600-some billion cells.
If growth in the first starter is less spectacular => cold crash and decant => make a new 2 liter starter before you split.

 

[CWood]

Nothing wrong with being obsessed (well, maybe) but pragmatism is a good approach to brewing as well. At the end of the day if you know what you're doing and have done this a bunch, 5 mo old yeast is no biggie and won't cause heartburn. I just think of yeast packs as an innoculant for my starter. The starter is where my pitch rate comes from, not the innoculant. Folks here are trying to help you with your angst. Continue your hunt for the elusive perfect pack of yeast and belgian tripple and I hope your beer turns out as you desire. Cheers!

 

[Gregory T]

I would dismiss MoreBeer's calculator, except for arguing a claim with them.

As mentioned before, Homebrew Dad's yeast calculator estimates haven't steered me wrong either. I have made well over a 100 starters over the years, many from 2-4 months old yeast packs, as that seems to be common availability.

Even the fresh vial from WhiteLabs' Yeast Vault I received a bit over a month ago took a good week to yield a decent starter, followed by a 2nd and 3rd one to ramp up cell count for 2 separate pitches. This was shipped under ideal conditions, no hot or frozen zones along the route.

This makes me wonder how much experience you have in making starters. Of course you should combine both packages of low cell count and make a one starter from that. That's a factor 2 gain right there, which multiplies along...

Especially when you expect the yeast to be in poor condition, due to age, mishandling, stressed from overheating/freezing, etc. you'd actually start with a much smaller starter volume (say 0.25-1 liter) at a reduced gravity of 1.020 or even 1.010, to prevent any more stress on her weak cells. Then step up from there.
Yes, it will likely take 3 steps that way, and probably 2-3 weeks in total. But you'll end up with a good pitch of viable yeast. Save some out for a next batch, after putting all that work into it...

This is not to say you should accept MoreBeer's poor supply and handling of the case without friction.

Back in March I found 2 different WLP PurePitch sleeves of lager yeast in a 'yeast box' in the back of my fridge I never got to use. They were well over 2 years old! They both were revived with a 3 tier step-up, and yielded a large amount of yeast ready to pitch. The starter made with the older of the 2 actually lifted off several days before the younger one, she seemed to be of better overall health. This goes to prove that age doesn't mean everything.

When you often need larger pitches, as in this case, consider getting a 2nd starter setup. Remember: Factor 2...

You only need to buy 1 sleeve (really!) => make a 2 liter starter => as long you get good growth (good healthy yeast), cold crash and decant => split into 2 starters, stir concurrently => you should have your 600-some billion cells.
If growth in the first starter is less spectacular => cold crash and decant => make a new 2 liter starter before you split.

Brewers Friend pitch rate calculator says if I pitch 1 3 month old pack at 45 billion cells in 2 liters I get 368 Billion cells. If I pitch to packs at 90 billion, I get 409

2 each of 368 is 736 vs 409 if pitched together

I could split it adding 2 days to my process or I could spend $7 and save 2 days. I have more money than time, so that’s the direction I go. Though there was a time in my life I wouldn’t have felt that way so ai completely your point

Plus at my age I’d probably forget to make the first starter soon enough to have it done by brew day

 

[Gregory T]

I would like to point out. In brewing we sanitize we don’t sterilize. Sterilization would require an autoclave (pressure cooker) and 350°f dry or 300° wet steam, a pressurized clean room and filtration systems

The yeast we pitch win because we pitch several billion cells, they kick off quickly, give off CO2 which prevents anything from entering, lower the ph and create alcohol.

If a starter sits inactive for 48 hours with a low cell count, exactly what all is in it? Your yeast? Wild yeast? Bacteria? It will all make beer. Some may even make good beer (see Lambics) But not necessarily the beer you are trying to make

 

[catdaddy66]

It's liquid yeast and it's a shade under 5 months old.

I have revived less viable yeast with a 2-3 stage starter process over 48-60 hours with good results.

 

[Gregory T]

It finally cleared my 2 liter starter after 4 days. I decanted Into a graduated mason jar. Approximately 10 ml yeast and 50 ml of trub. Per my calculations after a starter the 5 month old yeast yielded 25 billion cells

 

[CWood]

Unless u got a bunk pack to begin with, or it was shipped poorly, you had more than that going into your starter. No way to accurately measure cell number by eye and a Mason jar, sorry. That looks like a bunch of good yeast to me ready for a second round of starter. Sure there is some trub in there too. Sorry, man, you are worrying way too much. I hope it all works out and your beer turns out awesome. I'm sure it will with your dedication to a healthy batch of yeast. Good luck.

 

[Gregory T]

Unless u got a bunk pack to begin with, or it was shipped poorly, you had more than that going into your starter. No way to accurately measure cell number by eye and a Mason jar, sorry. That looks like a bunch of good yeast to me ready for a second round of starter. Sure there is some trub in there too. Sorry, man, you are worrying way too much. I hope it all works out and your beer turns out awesome. I'm sure it will with your dedication to a healthy batch of yeast. Good luck.

For any new brewers reading this I will reply

1) obviously there wasn’t more than that going into the starter. If about 700 million cells went into the starter that would explain both the time and yield. Strangely enough, that is a median point for yeast calculators

2) One actually can measure ml or ounces from a graduated mason jar, hence the graduated part

3) the large off color at the bottom is what brewers who harvest yeast call trub

4) I am not pitching that in my beer and no I don’t believe it is ok to get ripped off buying yeast.

5) things rarely turn out awesome by accident

Here is an excellent article on yeast harvesting and separating yeast from trub

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/forum/threads/yeast-washing-illustrated.41768/

I recently harvested DuPont yeast from a saison which cleared the beer in 6 days with no stall That was fun

 

[CWood]

For any new brewers reading this I will reply

1) obviously there wasn’t more than that going into the starter. If about 700 million cells went into the starter that would explain both the time and yield. Strangely enough, that is a median point for yeast calculators

2) One actually can measure ml or ounces from a graduated mason jar, hence the graduated part

3) the large off color at the bottom is what brewers who harvest yeast call trub

4) I am not pitching that in my beer and no I don’t believe it is ok to get ripped off buying yeast.

5) things rarely turn out awesome by accident

Here is an excellent article on yeast harvesting and separating yeast from trub

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/forum/threads/yeast-washing-illustrated.41768/

I recently harvested DuPont yeast from a saison which cleared the beer in 6 days with no stall That was fun

Ok, I will quit bantering about this. We just keep talking past each other. Just a few last comments so the beginners you are trying to educate don't get confused........

1- I was referencing your 25 billion comment. That's 25% of a "fresh" smack pack. Homebrewdad estimates 40 billion live cells in a 5-month old smack pack pre-starter. You estimate 25 billion produced after a starter? You either got a horrible pack and it needed to be stepped up, or your estimates are off.

2- We all understand you can measure volume in a mason jar, geesh.

3- There isn't a ton of trub in a normal-sized yeast starter. You are citing a yeast washing thread, btw. No one I know washes their yeast in a starter, just decant and pitch (or step up).

4- No one said pitch it in your beer, we said step it up if you need more yeast. I'm sorry you feel ripped off.

5- My kids are awesome and they were a total accident.

Cheers and good luck with the Belgians!

 

[CWood]

Double post, sorry about that.

 

[IslandLizard]

It finally cleared my 2 liter starter after 4 days. I decanted Into a graduated mason jar. Approximately 10 ml yeast and 50 ml of trub. Per my calculations after a starter the 5 month old yeast yielded 25 billion cells

You've got that wrong! The darker bottom layer you call 'trub' has a lot of vital yeast mixed in.

 

[IslandLizard]

@Gregory T You're not alone:
https://www.homebrewtalk.com/forum/...-my-imperial-yeast-order.665604/#post-8592152

MoreBeer seems to have trouble shipping yeast from their nearest location.

4 months old yeast that was properly stored and handled (refrigerated) since packaging should still be very viable. Especially, as I mentioned before, in WL's PurePitch sleeves, with up to 90% viability after 3 months.

In that light, I have the inkling that the shipping time and route followed to get it to you may have been more detrimental than her 4 months of age. Shipping yeast to homebrewers the way it's done is always a chancy proposition, more so when several days of extremer temperatures along the route can be involved.

Moreover, that ice pack had likely melted long before your order left MoreBeer's warehouse. At that point it's function had become merely a temperature buffer. If you had a pump in the same box, and some other stuff, more buffer, and less chilling.

 

[Gregory T]

You've got that wrong! The darker bottom layer you call 'trub' has a lot of vital yeast mixed in.

I’ll refer that here

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/forum/threads/yeast-washing-illustrated.41768/

 

[Gregory T]

@Gregory T You're not alone:
https://www.homebrewtalk.com/forum/...-my-imperial-yeast-order.665604/#post-8592152

MoreBeer seems to have trouble shipping yeast from their nearest location.

4 months old yeast that was properly stored and handled (refrigerated) since packaging should still be very viable. Especially, as I mentioned before, in WL's PurePitch sleeves, with up to 90% viability after 3 months.

In that light, I have the inkling that the shipping time and route followed to get it to you may have been more detrimental than her 4 months of age. Shipping yeast to homebrewers the way it's done is always a chancy proposition, more so when several days of extremer temperatures along the route can be involved.

Moreover, that ice pack had likely melted long before your order left MoreBeer's warehouse. At that point it's function had become merely a temperature buffer. If you had a pump in the same box, and some other stuff, more buffer, and less chilling.

Not buying yeast from them so it’s moot at this point. Shipping me 5 month old yeast is not ok. I don’t care if the hand carried it in a refrigerated truck.

 

[IslandLizard]

I’ll refer that here

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/forum/threads/yeast-washing-illustrated.41768/

This was pointed out previously, that thread is about yeast washing (the term for that is actually 'yeast rinsing'), reclaiming and 'rinsing' (cleaning) yeast from fermentations, not starters.

We don't 'rinse' starters. The 'trub' you have in your starter is quite different (in composition) from trub after a fermentation. That bottom layer likely contains 50% or more of viable yeast, mixed in with dead cells and some trub from the starter wort, etc. The dead cells can be a source of nutrients for your next fermentation.

 

[Gregory T]

This was pointed out previously, that thread is about yeast washing (the term for that is actually 'yeast rinsing'), reclaiming and 'rinsing' (cleaning) yeast from fermentations, not starters.

We don't 'rinse' starters. The 'trub' you have in your starter is quite different (in composition) from trub after a fermentation. That bottom layer likely contains 50% or more of viable yeast, mixed in with dead cells and some trub from the starter wort, etc. The dead cells can be a source of nutrients for your next fermentation.

Gotcha. It would work out perfect to be around 99 billion dead cells. Maybe I will get a little experimental and see how big the off color is in my new starter for comparison

I washed the yeast off a Saison I made a few weeks ago. That stuff is doing great in my new Saison. I normally don’t do that cuz I make a lot of Tripels

Though after this experience I might start taking it off the top just to be sure I get good yeast

 

[IslandLizard]

I washed the yeast off a Saison I made a few weeks ago. That stuff is doing great in my new Saison.

Yeast 'rinsing' is generally not even needed, as you lose a lot of good yeast with the method. Then storing under (aerated) water is not doing the yeast any favors either. Instead, you can simply pitch part of the yeast cake, ~1/5-1/4 worth generally, trub and all, in a similar volume and gravity wort.

Though after this experience I might start taking it off the top just to be sure I get good yeast

Off the top of what, your beer, by harvesting from the krausen? That would be referred to as 'top cropping,' and does get you the healthiest, most viable yeast. It's just not always the easiest, depending on your fermenter mostly.

 

[Gregory T]

3 month old yeast after 2 liter starter. Small trub approximately 10 ml

 

[andrew oberlin]

I read this whole thread and this much I know. Gregory T you are anal. Can I please get your Tripel recipe?

 

[Gregory T]

I read this whole thread and this much I know. Gregory T you are anal. Can I please get your Tripel recipe?

I prefer meticulous lol

7 pounds German Pilsner
7 pounds Belgian Pilsner
1 lb Vienna malt
.5 lb Flaked Barley
1 lb Candi syrup 1/2 at 10 minutes 1/2 in primary

Mash

115°F 10 minutes
135°F 20 minutes
145°F 30 minutes
156°F 20 minutes
168°F Mash Out

90 minute boil

Hops

0.9 oz challenger 7.4 AA 60 minutes
0.5 oz Styrian Goldings 2.6 AA 60 minutes
0.5 oz Styrian Goldings 2.6 AA 15 minutes
0.5 oz Styrian Goldings 0 minutes


Additional

.25 Sweet Orange Peel 10 minutes
Whirfloc 10 minutes

Yeast

590 billion cells of either WLP 500 or Wyeast 1214

Though I am considering using Omega Belgian A next time

Cheers

 

[andrew oberlin]

I prefer meticulous lol

7 pounds German Pilsner
7 pounds Belgian Pilsner
1 lb Vienna malt
.5 lb Flaked Barley
1 lb Candi syrup 1/2 at 10 minutes 1/2 in primary

Mash

115°F 10 minutes
135°F 20 minutes
145°F 30 minutes
156°F 20 minutes
168°F Mash Out

90 minute boil

Hops

0.9 oz challenger 7.4 AA 60 minutes
0.5 oz Styrian Goldings 2.6 AA 60 minutes
0.5 oz Styrian Goldings 2.6 AA 15 minutes
0.5 oz Styrian Goldings 0 minutes


Additional

.25 Sweet Orange Peel 10 minutes
Whirfloc 10 minutes

Yeast

590 billion cells of either WLP 500 or Wyeast 1214

Though I am considering using Omega Belgian A next time

Cheers

Thanks. I have been wanting to do a Tripel and I just stepped up my equipment to do step up mashes. So I think I will save this and give it a go.

 

[Gregory T]

Brewed my Tripel on the 19th pitched 585 billion cells to 1.078. First test today 5/24 came it at 1.010