Isolated Yeast (Tree House): How to Identify and Characterize?

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thunderaxe said:
a few thoughts:
there are some things that different people are more sensitive to tasting then others, i.e. the "cat piss" smell in certain hops, which I've never gotten. for me though, it's the presence of munich or similar malts in hoppy beers. i can usually tell from the first sip, it just jumps out at me like a distinct bready taste and i swear it's in julius. it might be vienna instead, i'm not certain i can reliably distinguish between the two but it definitely strikes me as munich. every other time i've tasted that in a beer i've looked up the grain bill if it's available and it's been munich.
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I always get that too. Swore there was Munich, but he has said "doesn't like" Munich in hoppy beers. I started to use Vienna, and always like the beers I make with Vienna in them, and now I use it all the time (in Saisons too). At the brewery they had Vienna and Munich. We know Julius doesn't have biscuit or aromatic or light crystal. Julius seems to have a deeper hue to it, or did, so I used to always suspect that the Rahr Pale Malt was involved — haven't tried it myself, but many use it as a sub for MO, maybe that's where that character is coming from (if it doesn't have Vienna in it) and could explain the sweetness.
 
The thing is the bread notes could just as easily be coming from the yeast and not from the grail bill. SO4 is notorious for it's "bready" nature.

Anything Julius or lower ABV might be a little more complex malt bill but everything larger I seriously doubt. The lower you go in ABV the more complex it needs to be or the more complexity you need to get from the malt.

No idea if TH is centrifuging but based on that shiny new brewhouse I would bet they have one. I've also heard that centrifuges are being used to actually inject hop oils back into beer. I'm not sure how that is executed but it was from a discussion a head brewer I know well had with some of the top Hop Scientists in the US.
 
couchsending said:
The thing is the bread notes could just as easily be coming from the yeast and not from the grail bill. SO4 is notorious for it's "bready" nature.

Anything Julius or lower ABV might be a little more complex malt bill but everything larger I seriously doubt. The lower you go in ABV the more complex it needs to be or the more complexity you need to get from the malt.

No idea if TH is centrifuging but based on that shiny new brewhouse I would bet they have one. I've also heard that centrifuges are being used to actually inject hop oils back into beer. I'm not sure how that is executed but it was from a discussion a head brewer I know well had with some of the top Hop Scientists in the US.
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Yeast wouldn't explain the difference between Julius and other beers though. When I say bread it's more of a toasted bread, but it could also be something like Columbus.

Anyway ordered some pale malt to split with the 2-row and some Fawcett caramalt out of curiosity. Gonna try LAIII with some T-58 and WB-06 for science now that I have Conan variant under my belt and an S-04 version on tap.
 
Also the whirlfloc has basically turned this last batch into a clear beer, a very slight haze compared to the previous with essentially the same grist and technique (but with Conan) and no whirlfloc. Hoping that reducing the amount, reduces the effect.
 
melville said:
Also the whirlfloc has basically turned this last batch into a clear beer, a very slight haze compared to the previous with essentially the same grist and technique (but with Conan) and no whirlfloc. Hoping that reducing the amount, reduces the effect.
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how's it taste though? in your previous post on the subject you said you thought it had a positive effect on the taste. do you still feel that way?
 
thunderaxe said:
how's it taste though? in your previous post on the subject you said you thought it had a positive effect on the taste. do you still feel that way?
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I do think it tastes "cleaner", "brighter". Do want to continue using for that benefit, but need to dial in the proper amount I think (not sure if the "proper amount" actually has the same effect as too much — I've only used it here and in a much lower amount in a saison afterwards.)

edit: yes the beer tastes pretty good, but appearance is not to style and probably related the mouthfeel is thinner than I'd like even while still being soft.
 
Take two on the picture not sure if it shows...
20180410_002645.jpg
 
man, these beers taste so much better with a little yeast in suspension. I've been pouring my EXP 6297 for a couple of weeks, and it had dropped pretty clear by the time it was carbed and serving. Three days ago, I shuffled my fridge around to retrieve a previously emptied keg. Today, I poured my first pint of the IPA since, and it's much cloudier than it had been and drinks so much fruitier. It's not murk, just opaque
 
drinking hurricane and alter from latest batches, hurricane a heck of a lot better than alter. i use to love alter but no where near the monson batches? hops seem super muted.... I thoroughly enjoyed hurricane have some green on the way. call me crazy and I am a believer in PCR as i have a big time scientific back ground, but alter tastes like straight conan to me now....maybe its the mosaic messing with me. I understand growing pains but man i was out there in october and Haze and Julius were similar to my experience with alter ego tonight. Hurricane on the other hand....
 
Don't know if this has already been posted, but TH seems to be updating their descriptions and this is Bright's;


The majority of our pale hoppy offerings get their flavor from a mixture of yeast esters, hop oils, and hop compound biotransformation. In contrast, the Bright series was created to put forth the pure essence of each hop variety so we can enjoy a pure and unadulterated hop experience. Opening a can of Bright and sniffing inside the lid stirs daydreams of walking through a sunny valley in Yakima, Washington around the time of hop harvest, with the scent of fresh hop oils filling the air. Citra is an incredible hop with a rich fruity profile, and presented here it tastes just like tangerines.

Bright w/Citra is a live beer and is best kept cold and enjoyed fresh, within 6-8 weeks of canning.
 
My impression of pretty much all the TH beers is that hop aromatics play a backseat to yeast derived esters. Even when looking at oil compositions via GCMS for their beers, oil levels are pretty low compared to other (similar) commercial products.

I'd also say their beers generally lack a defined, individual hop character, its mostly hop/ester soup. Not saying that it doesn't taste good.
 
Not sure if you guys saw this but this was posted on another thread talking about TH yeast..
 

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NJGeorge said:
Not sure if you guys saw this but this was posted on another thread talking about TH yeast..
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Note: the "him" he's referring to isn't Nate, but his boss (he interns at a brewery in CT I believe) who also claims Hill Farmstead uses Conan.
 
"I just talked with John and yes sounds like your hunch is correct and that John is indeed still using Greg's Conan (VPB1188). Sounds like there were some wires getting crossed between my interview with him and Shaun Hill. In my interview with John he mentioned the evolution of his yeast over time and Shaun Hill made reference to the fact that Conan is no longer used by 'us'
in a reference when talking about the proprietary status of Conan and it's status with the Alchemist and Hill Farmstead."

https://www.themadfermentationist.com/2013/11/conan-ipa-and-yeast.html
 
Made my first beer with LAIII in a while.. reminded me why I don’t like it still. Even at 1.013 and 90 theoretical IBUs it’s incredibly sweet.
 
I've made Braufessor's recipe a couple times, using both WLP095 and GigaYeast's Vermont IPA. I find that it makes a fantastic beer that I really enjoy, but I haven't gotten it to approach the juiciness and full mouthfeel of Tree House.

I've got a couple cans that I bought a few days before Easter--Doppleganger, Alter Ego, Eureka, and Bright (well, and Old Man). I'm thinking about harvesting some yeast, but wondering if you guys think I'd be better off trying a combination of T58 and WB06
 
New Curiosity 46 released with the following description : "The art and science of brewing continues to captivate us - every opportunity to experiment in search of how to improve our beer, and to further our understanding of what ultimately makes a beer enjoyable, enriches our spirit! Curiosity Forty Six is a blend of two beers, each utilizing a different fermentation profile. Both base beers are the same, and are kettle and dry hopped extensively with Citra & Mosaic hops. The result is a beer with layers of complexity that has intensely fruity characteristics that call to mind fruit stripe gum or the densely packed flavors of fruit strips. It's familiar, recalling the flavor profile of Curiosity Fourteen, but also carries a brightness and density that is unique. It’s heavy on tropical fruit, with flavors of mango and papaya, balanced by a zesty finish. It’s medium bodied, creamy, and refreshing - the perfect beer to accompany the rejuvenating and refreshing spirit of Spring."

So they are now blending two beers as an experiment.
Does Nate know about this thread, because it is funny that this has been speculated about a lot here and now he's making a beer like that. :)
 
Not directly useful but since people around here have an interest in Fermentis T-58 you might be interested in the latest big genome sequencing paper which puts it in neither of the main two groups of brewing yeast but in the ragbag group of "funnies" that includes Alt yeasts, bread yeasts and some distilling yeasts.

The same paper confirms S-33 and Windsor to be very closely related, supporting @isomerization PCRs back in post #97, and in the same ragbag group (but being POF- they brew rather differently).
 
murphyslaw said:
I've made Braufessor's recipe a couple times, using both WLP095 and GigaYeast's Vermont IPA. I find that it makes a fantastic beer that I really enjoy, but I haven't gotten it to approach the juiciness and full mouthfeel of Tree House.

I've got a couple cans that I bought a few days before Easter--Doppleganger, Alter Ego, Eureka, and Bright (well, and Old Man). I'm thinking about harvesting some yeast, but wondering if you guys think I'd be better off trying a combination of T58 and WB06
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You will most likely end of with a phenolic mess if you try to ferment something harvested from their cans.
 
Rainy said:
New Curiosity 46 released with the following description : "The art and science of brewing continues to captivate us - every opportunity to experiment in search of how to improve our beer, and to further our understanding of what ultimately makes a beer enjoyable, enriches our spirit! Curiosity Forty Six is a blend of two beers, each utilizing a different fermentation profile. Both base beers are the same, and are kettle and dry hopped extensively with Citra & Mosaic hops. The result is a beer with layers of complexity that has intensely fruity characteristics that call to mind fruit stripe gum or the densely packed flavors of fruit strips. It's familiar, recalling the flavor profile of Curiosity Fourteen, but also carries a brightness and density that is unique. It’s heavy on tropical fruit, with flavors of mango and papaya, balanced by a zesty finish. It’s medium bodied, creamy, and refreshing - the perfect beer to accompany the rejuvenating and refreshing spirit of Spring."

So they are now blending two beers as an experiment.
Does Nate know about this thread, because it is funny that this has been speculated about a lot here and now he's making a beer like that. :)
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I suspect he’s been blending beers of some sort for quite some time.
 
melville said:
S-04, I'd like you to meet S-05.
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A couple weeeks ago I brewed a batch using Pilsner galaxy and s-05. First time using it. Also last week brewed a pale ale using Vienna and pale ale malt 50/50. Currently natural carbing with hops in the keg. Trying different ingredience before I try the blend again.
 
So, reading this huge thread since yesterday and I finally got to page 30. Was a huge PITA for me whose English isn't his best language. I'm going to read the whole thread in few days, but just wondering if anyone can summarize the latest change on anything because I can miss few posts that I can't 100% understand. i.e.) are you guys still using S-04, WB-06, T-58? Then did anyone got some nice ratio with specific fermentation temp? If not, did you guys moved on to any other yeasts? Thanks and cheers to the guys who are participating in this cool experiments. God I love craft beers.
 
"Alter Ego was born during a time of intense experimentation as we transitioned from a 5 BBL brew house to a 30 BBL brewhouse in 2015 and was first served at our third anniversary party. A little known fact is that the original batch was split into two 15 BBL fermenters - one half of that batch became Alter Ego and the other half became JJJuliusss. "

A fair reading implies 1 fv per beer to me, or at least a delicious TH beer a few years ago could be done in one fv.
 
melville said:
"Alter Ego was born during a time of intense experimentation as we transitioned from a 5 BBL brew house to a 30 BBL brewhouse in 2015 and was first served at our third anniversary party. A little known fact is that the original batch was split into two 15 BBL fermenters - one half of that batch became Alter Ego and the other half became JJJuliusss. "

A fair reading implies 1 fv per beer to me, or at least a delicious TH beer a few years ago could be done in one fv.
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I don’t disagree with you and I could be wrong, but I think when he’s saying 30bbl brewhouse he’s referring to the mash ton and boil kettle capacity. There was that one video on YouTube where that guy dean said they were brewing I think it was twice a day to keep up and fill fermenters. I would think they would have more fermenters than just two 15bbl fv’s at the old place.
 
MPBeer said:
So, reading this huge thread since yesterday and I finally got to page 30. Was a huge PITA for me whose English isn't his best language. I'm going to read the whole thread in few days, but just wondering if anyone can summarize the latest change on anything because I can miss few posts that I can't 100% understand. i.e.) are you guys still using S-04, WB-06, T-58? Then did anyone got some nice ratio with specific fermentation temp? If not, did you guys moved on to any other yeasts? Thanks and cheers to the guys who are participating in this cool experiments. God I love craft beers.
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Welcome to the rabbit hole.. it’s deep and dark with almost no end in sight... but you’ll learn a lot more about things other than identifying the yeast used by TH for their beers. Which is nice
 
MPBeer said:
So, reading this huge thread since yesterday and I finally got to page 30. Was a huge PITA for me whose English isn't his best language. I'm going to read the whole thread in few days, but just wondering if anyone can summarize the latest change on anything because I can miss few posts that I can't 100% understand. i.e.) are you guys still using S-04, WB-06, T-58? Then did anyone got some nice ratio with specific fermentation temp? If not, did you guys moved on to any other yeasts? Thanks and cheers to the guys who are participating in this cool experiments. God I love craft beers.
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Check out this site, it will give you answers to many of your questions
https://trinitybrewers.com/brews/ipa/julius-clone-treehouse-brewing-ipa/
 
I tried that Trinity yeast method but swapping S04 with a smackpack of 1318. Waiting for that small percentage of WB06 to finish up has been a pita. It just keeps munching...
 
TheHairyHop said:
I tried that Trinity yeast method but swapping S04 with a smackpack of 1318. Waiting for that small percentage of WB06 to finish up has been a pita. It just keeps munching...
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SG keeps dropping or it just looks like its fermenting? I have had good luck with the Trinity recipe just need to improve the mouthfeel a bit, still undecided how to go about it.
 
tld6008 said:
SG keeps dropping or it just looks like its fermenting? I have had good luck with the Trinity recipe just need to improve the mouthfeel a bit, still undecided how to go about it.
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I have a blow off system where I can see/hear the bubbles about once a minute.
Honestly, mouthfeel is the only thing I'm chasing at this point. As interesting as the relationship Julius has between the yeast and hops, it's the pillowy creamy mouthfeel that attracts me to TH beers. Anything will taste decent with proper technique and the amount of Citra/Simcoe/Mosaic people throw at these beers
 
TheHairyHop said:
I have a blow off system where I can see/hear the bubbles about once a minute.
Honestly, mouthfeel is the only thing I'm chasing at this point. As interesting as the relationship Julius has between the yeast and hops, it's the pillowy creamy mouthfeel that attracts me to TH beers. Anything will taste decent with proper technique and the amount of Citra/Simcoe/Mosaic people throw at these beers
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I also use a blow off system but usually find that it continues to vent even though the SG has stabilized. I didn't notice this situation until I started down the NEIPA road with 6+ ounces of dryhops in the FV, although it always stops during cold crashing. Sorry for the italics I hit something unintentionally. Where has your mouthfeel chase led you?
 
Kind of no where, honestly. 7/10 times, oats make the mouth feel slick. Wheat, at least in the way I use it, doesn't do much. I'm trying a batch with carafoam now
 
The next time that I order hops, I will also order extracts. It's possible they are helping with TH's signature mouth feel. Unfortunately, getting those cans that breweries probably use seems to be out of the question. I think that Farmhouse sells syringes for smaller batches. Is it the same product? No clue. I've spent some time looking it up, but couldn't conclusively say yes or no
 

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