Isolated Yeast (Tree House): How to Identify and Characterize?

[couchsending]

It’s the same product. It’s not for mouthfeel, it’s for less vegetal matter in the kettle over a long period of time, better yield, and more stable alpha acids. The Co2 extract doesn’t degrade, pellets lose their alpha regardless of storage. You can more easily make a consistent product with extract for bittering.

I would look at mashing regime, PH from start to finish, carbonation, water, before looking at extract usage as a way of changing mouthfeel.

 

[skibb]

I tried that Trinity yeast method but swapping S04 with a smackpack of 1318. Waiting for that small percentage of WB06 to finish up has been a pita. It just keeps munching...

That's because it's diastaticus!

I had a beer in the tank bubble for a month (it was 3711 strain). Naively I let it sit figuring it was actually doing something, despite the gravity staying the same. Beer ended up having a faint autolysis note to it, and we dumped it

I'm honestly quite surprised TH would knowningly use WB-06 in their beers. I mean I know they expect them to be drank fresh and stored cold since they are IPAs... I would be curious if @isomerization will ever go back and plate out some of these beers again and see if he is getting the same ratios he previously saw

 

[TheHairyHop]

It’s the same product. It’s not for mouthfeel, it’s for less vegetal matter in the kettle over a long period of time, better yield, and more stable alpha acids. The Co2 extract doesn’t degrade, pellets lose their alpha regardless of storage. You can more easily make a consistent product with extract for bittering.

I would look at mashing regime, PH from start to finish, carbonation, water, before looking at extract usage as a way of changing mouthfeel.

There are hop extracts that are definitely sold for head retention and mouth feel

I'll eat a mash worth of spent grain if it comes down to the water. Plenty of people have done water analyses on TH beers, and they're nothing out of the ordinary. It's probably the first thing that other brewers check, and the list of other beers I've had that come close to TH mouth feel is very very short

 

[murphyslaw]

Check out this site, it will give you answers to many of your questions
https://trinitybrewers.com/brews/ipa/julius-clone-treehouse-brewing-ipa/

How do you go about mixing the yeast to those ratios? I assume you just buy a pack of each and weigh out 10.6g/.6g/.3g to hit the 92/5/3 ratio and a typical 11.5g?

 

[tld6008]

How do you go about mixing the yeast to those ratios? I assume you just buy a pack of each and weigh out 10.6g/.6g/.3g to hit the 92/5/3 ratio and a typical 11.5g?

Yes I bought a pack of each and used a full (11.5g)S04 pack with .625g T58 and .375g WBO6, basically half of what Marshall uses in an 11 Gal batch. I didn't rehydrate and added with wort at 72 deg then chilled to 62

 

[couchsending]

There are hop extracts that are definitely sold for head retention and mouth feel

I'll eat a mash worth of spent grain if it comes down to the water. Plenty of people have done water analyses on TH beers, and they're nothing out of the ordinary. It's probably the first thing that other brewers check, and the list of other beers I've had that come close to TH mouth feel is very very short

Those are different extracts made in completely different ways as for different purposes. Unless you got a good friend at a brewery as a homebrewer you can’t get them. The CO2 extract that Nate uses in the boil is most likely basically the same as we as homebrewers can get although pros can pick from more varietal specific extract.

The other “extracts” Kalsec, Hopsteiner, Barth Haas and others produce are different. Hopshine, hexahop, isolone, tetrahop, etc are more down stream products you can add to beer for bitterness tweaking, aroma enhancement, head retention, foam stability, etc.

It wouldn’t surprise me to find out there now using a foam stability, head retention product. Poored a Haze last night that had comical amounts of head retention and foam stability. Sh** you generally only see in cold fermented lagers.

 

[isomerization]

That's because it's diastaticus!

I had a beer in the tank bubble for a month (it was 3711 strain). Naively I let it sit figuring it was actually doing something, despite the gravity staying the same. Beer ended up having a faint autolysis note to it, and we dumped it

I'm honestly quite surprised TH would knowningly use WB-06 in their beers. I mean I know they expect them to be drank fresh and stored cold since they are IPAs... I would be curious if @isomerization will ever go back and plate out some of these beers again and see if he is getting the same ratios he previously saw

I’m not in an academic setting anymore, so I no longer have access to PCR equipment, sorry!

 

[TheHairyHop]

Those are different extracts made in completely different ways as for different purposes. Unless you got a good friend at a brewery as a homebrewer you can’t get them. The CO2 extract that Nate uses in the boil is most likely basically the same as we as homebrewers can get although pros can pick from more varietal specific extract.

The other “extracts” Kalsec, Hopsteiner, Barth Haas and others produce are different. Hopshine, hexahop, isolone, tetrahop, etc are more down stream products you can add to beer for bitterness tweaking, aroma enhancement, head retention, foam stability, etc.

It wouldn’t surprise me to find out there now using a foam stability, head retention product. Poored a Haze last night that had comical amounts of head retention and foam stability. Sh** you generally only see in cold fermented lagers.

yea, I figured that they were different. It's still possible that CO2 extract at lower than isomerization temps could help out with mouthfeel. In the end, they're going to contain some of the same compounds as the other extracts. Eh, it's on the list of things to try. Who knows, it might work pretty darn well

 

[TheHairyHop]

I did the Trinity brewer's ratio but with 1318 instead of S-04. Pitched a bit above 70 and left to ferment ~64 (ambient in my bedroom). Dry hopped only with Chinook. It's great. I would brew this way again

 

[NJGeorge]

I did the Trinity brewer's ratio but with 1318 instead of S-04. Pitched a bit above 70 and left to ferment ~64 (ambient in my bedroom). Dry hopped only with Chinook. It's great. I would brew this way again

Sounds good! Does it have any clove or Belgian flavors? Anywhere near TH taste?

 

[TheHairyHop]

Sounds good! Does it have any clove or Belgian flavors? Anywhere near TH taste?

it's still green. I'll let you know in a few days. I didn't pick up any clove

 

[melville]

Visited the brewery last night (for science) had a curiosity 45 there and brought some beers. No line and quite a bit of beer available, so Thursday evening is shaping up to be a good time to go.

Noticed something that reminds one of WB-06 in 45. It happens at the beginning of the sip.
Lights On: Notice a white pepper hanging out low, like when the fruit goes down, there's pepper — distinct from that spice thing I get in other beers. In this beer, helps accentuate the relatively dry finish. It sticks around, with a slight banana thing appearing after you swallow — strongly reminds of T-58.

Carbonation is sublime in both beers, like that's where the magic is happening with mouthfeel. Can totally see these being mostly S-04 beers otherwise. They aren't highly carbed, but condensely carbed if that makes sense, really packed in there. One swish in your mouth and it transforms into fluffiness.

Heavy haze but not murk. Pretty colors. Medium to light mouthfeel, enough mouthfeel. Bright, clean, distinct hop flavors. Saturated, but not heavy handed. Rounded. Crafted — the flavors have layers or positions on the palate, Like an oniony nose, fruit here, spice there, etc.

 

[trav77]

GNO is like granola or graham cracker a bit. Sweet and rich. When i open the bag i immediately get granola. I dont use it anymore in neipa. Cant get the flavor to play nice. Kind of a buttery thing that’s distracting. YMMV.


No flakes either. But i am using alot of carafoam, hot breaking to a simmer, and getting big body. Also gonna add a bunch of malted oats to see what i get for glycerols. Last time i went too far, it was really thick, oddly thick. But flavor was great so just gotta dial it back i guess.

Yeah I definitely get the buttery thing with GNO. I used a bunch of it in an APA and judge comments were that the beer contained diacetyl which I think they were just incorrectly picking up from flavour of the GNO. A local brewery here uses it in their cream ale and I get the exact same flavour there too.

That being said, Blindman here in AB uses GNO in their NEIPA and it's one of the best I've had.

 

[mikeroesoft]

Thanks to everyone sharing their experiences, still lots of really good info coming in here. I realize most of the posted recipes use dry yeast but don't see anyone talking about oxygenation/pre-pitch DO levels and/or actual pitching rates on a cells/ml level. Anyone measuring those parameters and doing any experimention?

 

[Northern_Brewer]

Carbonation is sublime in both beers, like that's where the magic is happening with mouthfeel. Can totally see these being mostly S-04 beers otherwise. They aren't highly carbed, but condensely carbed if that makes sense, really packed in there....

Crafted — the flavors have layers or positions on the palate, Like an oniony nose, fruit here, spice there, etc.

That carbonation sounds familiar to British ears, where we're more used to cask and bottle conditioning... Unless they're messing about with nitro "carbonation"? What format was this?

Is the oniony thing new? People seem to have suddenly started talking about onions in Citra, like certain batches of the 2017 were picked at the wrong time or something and ended up going oniony. Wouldn't be the first time, but something seems to have definitely "happened" with some batches of 2017 Citra.

 

[couchsending]

A lot of Citra has been junk for a couple years now. A lot more acreage to try to keep up with demand and lots that are vastly different. Same for Mosaic.

 

[ThePaleAleIndian]

I remember thinking oniony about Citra probably about 6 years ago or so. Wouldn't be surprised to have that character from newly used acreage as farms try to get their feet under them as far as when to harvest.

 

[SanPancho]

huh. well ive also noticed that process will also play a big role. say i do a mash out the gno is much more pronounced that without it. it could also be the mix of the grain bill in terms of competing flavors, as well as the obvious which is how much gno you use. i dont have notes but i dont recall using that much.

if you can ask those guys how much they use it'd be an interesting fact. yeast selection probably matters alot too, at least with neipa since most seem to use english strains which can be a bit sweeter than dry.

 

[melville]

That carbonation sounds familiar to British ears, where we're more used to cask and bottle conditioning... Unless they're messing about with nitro "carbonation"? What format was this?

Is the oniony thing new? People seem to have suddenly started talking about onions in Citra, like certain batches of the 2017 were picked at the wrong time or something and ended up going oniony. Wouldn't be the first time, but something seems to have definitely "happened" with some batches of 2017 Citra.

I've never had Lights On before and am unsure which hops are in it. There can be good onion and bad onion, and in this beer it's a good onion.

The 45 was on tap. The description:
"Curiosity Forty Five utilizes a simple malt bill and some of our favorite hop varieties as the base for a number of process innovations that lend to a beer that has a uniquely velvety texture and rich hop saturation. It is heavy with citrus character, with threads of papaya, guava, honeydew melon, cantaloupe, and stone fruit. The finish is quite soft and features a texture unique to Tree House."

"Velvety" and "Saturation" are still stuck in my mind after having it. It was like drinking a meringue, very creamy. If I could get 50% of this finish I'd have 100% better beer.

Had Doppelganger last night. This one doesn't impress as much likely because I'm not a huge mosaic fan. Again mouthfeel outside of carbonation is south of medium. Not a chewy beer. But — the carb makes it something else.

 

[TheHairyHop]

I honestly don't think that doppelganger tastes much of mosaic. There's a lot of playing with those flavors in that beer. If you want to drink mosaic, the Lone Pine's Tesselation is where it's at

 

[DrOfBrews]

serious question after having some recent julius and green. has anyone on this thread had the original julius, i am talking about the one that was much darker and clearer prior to tree house creating super haze beers? if so, how did the original stuff compare to the beer now? something changed in these beers to make them much more murky, but was the mouthfeel on the original stuff the same from like 2014, how bout the flavor profiles of these beers?

 

[TheHairyHop]

Sounds good! Does it have any clove or Belgian flavors? Anywhere near TH taste?

Zero Belgian or clove that I am able to detect. The last time that I did a 100% Chinook NEIPA, I enjoyed it a lot, and this one is no different in that respect. It's a great beer. There's a tad of vegetal bite on some sips that I don't recall from the last time I made a similar beer, but that could just be down to the hop harvest or its young status. Or, now that I'm thinking of it, it could be something with the aromatic malt from the Trinity recipe. I honestly see no reason to include it, as I've equally enjoyed TH's paler beers to their more orange offerings. Devil's advocate says that there is plenty of evidence showing that roasted malts aid in head retention, so maybe I'll just try another roast next time.

As far as the yeast, I believe the combo has aided in head retention, mouth feel and flavor. There's more head for longer, the beer is full, and the flavor is packed with acid-less orange (mango?) that I don't recall being in the first Chinook attempt. I'm glad that I did 1318 instead of S-04. I'll never use that yeast again, unless there's some understanding as to why to it creates that tang.

 

[chieftain]

Zero Belgian or clove that I am able to detect. The last time that I did a 100% Chinook NEIPA, I enjoyed it a lot, and this one is no different in that respect. It's a great beer. There's a tad of vegetal bite on some sips that I don't recall from the last time I made a similar beer, but that could just be down to the hop harvest or its young status. Or, now that I'm thinking of it, it could be something with the aromatic malt from the Trinity recipe. I honestly see no reason to include it, as I've equally enjoyed TH's paler beers to their more orange offerings. Devil's advocate says that there is plenty of evidence showing that roasted malts aid in head retention, so maybe I'll just try another roast next time.

As far as the yeast, I believe the combo has aided in head retention, mouth feel and flavor. There's more head for longer, the beer is full, and the flavor is packed with acid-less orange (mango?) that I don't recall being in the first Chinook attempt. I'm glad that I did 1318 instead of S-04. I'll never use that yeast again, unless there's some understanding as to why to it creates that tang.

Do you think the small amounts of T58 and WB06 added something that 1318 could not achieve on its own?

 

[TheHairyHop]

Do you think the small amounts of T58 and WB06 added something that 1318 could not achieve on its own?

I think so. I am always reluctant to associate any sensory analysis to a change in the process because it's not like I had a control and I wasn't blind to the changes. There's been plenty of chatter on what this combo is "supposed to do", so that's going to affect my thoughts. However, adding a few grams of WB-06 and T-58 and pitching at 70 is such a small change to my brew day, that I might as well do it. I don't have temp control at the moment, so it was just hanging out at ambient temps in my bedroom. Therefore, it seems that anyone could do this. As I said, I've certainly had lame experiences with S-04. I just let the wort fall into the fermenter, pitched a smack pack of 1318, the grams of the other yeasts calculated to what should go into 4 gallons, and then shook it with the lid on for like 30 seconds.

 

[NJGeorge]

So, any further speculation that they’re copitching vs blending two beers? What do you guys think? I’m surprised more people haven’t tried blending two different beers with the supposed trio. I plan on doing that that next. Just need to get a carboy heater and temp control.

 

[TheHairyHop]

I haven't done it because it sounds like a PITA. All of my kegs are occupied by various brews atm. My guess is that one fermenter gets WB-06 and effectively acts as krausening when it is mixed with the (relatively) under attenuated S-04 side.

 

[ThePaleAleIndian]

I haven't done it because it sounds like a PITA.

Yes. Yes it is. I mean, I plan on doing it again but man I wish I didn't want to haha

My guess is that one fermenter gets WB-06 and effectively acts as krausening when it is mixed with the (relatively) under attenuated S-04 side.

Agreed. This is my current theory as well. Although I still wonder about the CBC-1/F2.

 

[TheHairyHop]

since I ferment in corny kegs, it could actually be not too bad but I really don't want to lock up two kegs for one experiment. Maybe I should just so I can shut up about it

 

[chieftain]

I think so. I am always reluctant to associate any sensory analysis to a change in the process because it's not like I had a control and I wasn't blind to the changes. There's been plenty of chatter on what this combo is "supposed to do", so that's going to affect my thoughts. However, adding a few grams of WB-06 and T-58 and pitching at 70 is such a small change to my brew day, that I might as well do it. I don't have temp control at the moment, so it was just hanging out at ambient temps in my bedroom. Therefore, it seems that anyone could do this. As I said, I've certainly had lame experiences with S-04. I just let the wort fall into the fermenter, pitched a smack pack of 1318, the grams of the other yeasts calculated to what should go into 4 gallons, and then shook it with the lid on for like 30 seconds.

Thanks for the feedback. If you could control temps, would you try a different fermentation schedule?

Not sure what you're using for a fermenter, but when I used a plastic carboy in the guest bathroom I used the Cool Brewing jacket - worked pretty well. Even did a lager, which was a PITA.

 

[TheHairyHop]

Maybe? I've had temp control in the past and used it to try and pull peach out of Conan, and it didn't go anywhere. If someone reports about wild results using temp controlling, then sure, I'll try it. When I get a controller back up and running, it'll more than likely be used for lagering or Belgian style beers, rather than IPAs. I would be interested in doing an analysis of glycerol levels in TH beers vs my own. Although there is conflicting research about glycerol's relation to mouthfeel, it could be a decent start

 

[Northern_Brewer]

I don't have temp control at the moment, so it was just hanging out at ambient temps...I've certainly had lame experiences with S-04.

The two may not be unconnected?

Just on the blending thing - all I can say is based on my experience of fermenting M36, T-58 and WB-06 separately and as a blend all together (on the same wort) - is that the results will be completely different. Blending means you get far less "volume" of hoppiness - but what hoppiness there is has had all sorts of interesting biotransformation going on, so is far more complex. You get some biotransformation, especially with T-58 (but not at all with M36), but there is some weird non-additive stuff going on in the blend.

Windsor, London ESB and S-33 are reasonably close POF- relatives of T-58 so may be worth checking out for biotransformation.

 

[TheHairyHop]

Possibly, but when I can do the same thing with a different yeast and get good results, the ability to give a darn drops significantly. I'm not the only one who got tartness from S-04 either, and I think that others in this thread are more rigorous than me when it comes to fermentation temperature

 

[Northern_Brewer]

Oh, S-04 is famous for it, but it seems to only kick in above a certain temperature - 68F or so???

I wonder if it has a funky lactose metabolism because it had to make so much Mackeson milk stout back in the day?

 

[TheHairyHop]

your knowledge of yeast is clearly extensive. If you know how to get ludicrous amounts of peach from a yeast strain, I will ship you TH straight from MA, and/or hand deliver it the next time I go to the country to visit Kent

 

[couchsending]

You’ve pitched Conan at .3/ml/*plato? And fermented at 68-70? I’ve only done it twice but it’s pretty peachy with a super low pitch and warm ferment.

 

[TheHairyHop]

I did, and it wasn't at the level if what Aslin is pumping out. I definitely wanted more

 

[quijiba]

I would recommend getting Omegas DIPA (OYL52 I think?). Pitch at 0.65million cells / ml / degree plato. Ferm at 68.5F for 48 hrs, 72.5F until terminal. The peach esters are extremely pronounced. I've made a beer with no dry hop (just whirpool) and it's a relatively assertive flavor (obviously more assertive if you dry hop with stone fruit supporting hops, but you get the drift)

 

[couchsending]

Would love to know if anyone has ever degassed a sample of TWSS to check the gravity. Trying to nail a good low ABV milk stout and would like to know a little more about this one in particular.

 

[ultravista]

So I built 6 of these very cheaply (http://because-beer.com/diy-spunding-valve-one-stop-parts-shopping-on-amazon/) and basically I drop in some priming sugar (about 3/4 of a bottling package of priming sugar) solution into the keg (boiled in a small amount of distilled water and cooled obviously), then rack the beer quietly into the keg and then pressurize with CO2 to remove any O2 in the head space (and to just seal the lid), then attach the spunding valves and walk away for 2 weeks.

Please post photos of this spunding valve attached to the keg.

 

[ThePaleAleIndian]

Would love to know if anyone has ever degassed a sample of TWSS to check the gravity. Trying to nail a good low ABV milk stout and would like to know a little more about this one in particular.

I would be interested in this too. Turns out they have TWSS in cans today. Wish I was in the area...