Isolated Yeast (Tree House): How to Identify and Characterize?

[melville]

I was running through YCH.com looking through their CO2 extract products which Nate said they use. They call about increased AA utilization, excellent stability of alpha and beta acids, and increase shelf stability. That could be part of it. Also, I've been ready how trub in the kettle/fermenter can be foam negative. Using this would eliminate that. They also have stuff like Tetra that all supposed to be very foam positive. What are the chances he's using some of that?

First thing that came to mind was Tetra. Like it seemed just all of a sudden he started sharing some head-centric photos of beers. That's what made me think magic bullet type solution vs evolution of process. But for all we know though there's just a setting in the preferences for their brew system that just says "more head retention"

 

[TheHairyHop]

Tetra is very foam positive. Either Tonsmeire or Scott Jannish did a rough experiment with a glass of beer and noted that the foam basically turned into a plastic at some point. It would be a natural progression to be using hop extract, be contacted by your supplier about a "new product", and end up trying that out. I've been wanting to play with extract for a while, I just haven't found the time

 

[JohnConnor]

First thing that came to mind was Tetra. Like it seemed just all of a sudden he started sharing some head-centric photos of beers. That's what made me think magic bullet type solution vs evolution of process. But for all we know though there's just a setting in the preferences for their brew system that just says "more head retention"

I'm with you. I've seen those photo's and it makes me want to cry. That's kind of been my focus right now. Mouthfeel and that amazing, rocky head. I can't get close. It's not bad, but it's not good either. One thing I wanted to do was a step mash... 145 and then up to 163. I've been reading German brewing books. They say very foam positive. Who knows. I kind of feel like I'm running down a rabbit hole I won't find an end to.

 

[TheHairyHop]

green less than a year apart. The lighting is different, but I'd say the head is substantially different

 

[melville]

green less than a year apart. The lighting is different, but I'd say the head is substantially different

Yep, that's what I've noticed. Normal NEIPA head vs cartoonish whip cream head.

 

[TheHairyHop]

I might pick up some chinook extract and start playing with it. In NEIPA applications, chinook is delicious

 

[Jwin]

green less than a year apart. The lighting is different, but I'd say the head is substantially different

Could just be using the creamer perlick taps. I have 3. They work as advertised

 

[tld6008]

Would anyone care to comment on the results you have had from Marshall Bishops recipe at
https://trinitybrewers.com/brews/ipa/julius-clone-treehouse-brewing-ipa/#comment-729
Surely some of you have made this? I ask because I have and thought it was quite good although not exactly what I expected but not have every tried the real thing I have nothing to compare it to other than Braufessors NEIPA recipe (on this site) and a fairly local brew from Parish Brewing in Broussard, LA called Ghost in the Machine.

 

[chrilr]

http://www.stealthisbeer.com/episodes/2017/6/26/episode-115-dan-suarez-suarez-family-brewery

52:00 they talk about getting citrus vs. Fruit from hops and how ph is important

 

[makubex]

http://www.stealthisbeer.com/episodes/2017/6/26/episode-115-dan-suarez-suarez-family-brewery

52:00 they talk about getting citrus vs. Fruit from hops and how ph is important

Wow, that host is annoying. Why bring somebody on your show if you're going to talk over them and keep trying to negate any point they make?

Suarez starts talking about how limiting oxygen is important and the host cuts in with "I don't think that's the problem here." Okay, great, but limiting dissolved oxygen is ridiculously important with these styles, and if that's the advice Dan wants to give, let him give it.

With that out of the way, the note about pH is interesting and worthy of some experimentation. Again, annoying that the host doesn't want to speak to his own advice and has to put Dan on the spot with "what pH would you target?" Also, no indication is given as to whether the stated 5.0-5.2 pH range is at room temp or boil temp.

If someone has a way of splitting off wort into smaller 1-gallon batches, it'd be interesting to see the difference in whirlpool hop character between post-boil worts dosed with citric acid to several different pH levels.

 

[Northern_Brewer]

If someone has a way of splitting off wort into smaller 1-gallon batches, it'd be interesting to see the difference in whirlpool hop character between post-boil worts dosed with citric acid to several different pH levels.

You could do a first approximation just by adding acid to finished bottles of beer, surely? I know it won't address the issue of efficiency of extraction, but if that's what you're interested in then you need a baseline to compare anyway?

Worth noting that per Aroxa the threshold for detecting the taste of citric acid is ~1.14 grams in 5 US gallons, and you also get other effects like it reducing the sweetness of sugar. If you just want to test pH effects, you're probably better off with inorganic acids.

 

[makubex]

You could do a first approximation just by adding acid to finished bottles of beer, surely? I know it won't address the issue of efficiency of extraction, but if that's what you're interested in then you need a baseline to compare anyway?

Worth noting that per Aroxa the threshold for detecting the taste of citric acid is ~1.14 grams in 5 US gallons, and you also get other effects like it reducing the sweetness of sugar. If you just want to test pH effects, you're probably better off with inorganic acids.

Per the podcast linked above, the host was insinuating that the flavor and aroma characteristics extracted from whirlpool hops would be different dependent on the post boil pH. Dosing after the fact wouldn't necessarily nhave the same effect if what he's stating is true.

 

[Northern_Brewer]

Per the podcast linked above, the host was insinuating that the flavor and aroma characteristics extracted from whirlpool hops would be different dependent on the post boil pH. Dosing after the fact wouldn't necessarily nhave the same effect if what he's stating is true.

But it would have other effects on flavour, which you would control for by acidifying finished beer - and those effects could be notable in their own right, especially if you're using organic acids.

Edit - having just listened to that last 5 minutes or so, I didn't get the impression he was talking about pH affecting extraction at all, he was just talking about pH as it affects your tastebuds. Maybe they talked about extraction earlier in the podcast, but not in that final question.

 

[makubex]

But it would have other effects on flavour, which you would control for by acidifying finished beer - and those effects could be notable in their own right, especially if you're using organic acids.

Edit - having just listened to that last 5 minutes or so, I didn't get the impression he was talking about pH affecting extraction at all, he was just talking about pH as it affects your tastebuds. Maybe they talked about extraction earlier in the podcast, but not in that final question.

It's entirely possible that I misinterpreted the discussion. I do have some citric acid on hand that I use for pH correction in my mash - perhaps next time I have a new england style on tap, I'll add a pinch and see how it affects the beer.

 

[couchsending]

PH adjustment during the boil can be rather important especially for incredibly hoppy beers. Ideally Ph should be 5.0-5.2 going into the fermenter mostly for fermentation benefits. Hops increase PH. If your mash PH is 5.2-5.4 and you monitor it during Sparge so as not to raise it going into the kettle you may or may not want to drop it even st the start of the boil. 5.4 is ideal for utilization but lower will give you a more rounded bitterness. Can’t remember where I read that at some point in time Orval lowered their boil PH from 5.4 to 5.0 and customers were complaining that it didn’t have the same level bitterness.

PH generally drops during the boil but if you’re adding piles of hops in the kettle (or whirlpool) it won’t drop as much. Measure the PH at the end of the boil next time and measure it after you add your massive FO or Whirlpool addition.

The highest regarded IPA of the west coast variety is 5.25 beginning of the boil, has higher ratios of CaCl to Gysum added close to the end of the boil, and acid added during WP. It goes into the fermenter between 5.1 and 5.0 PH.

I not 100% sure but I believe that it’s more important for certain yeasts to have that lower PH going into the fermenter as some don’t naturally produce as much acid. I think 007 is a popular yeast for hoppy beers as it does produce a lot of acid which can help the beer pop more but also counter the increase in PH from massive DH additions. Everyone loves the “softness” of LAIII but I think that has a lot to do with acid production (not sure as I haven’t used it enough) but I would bet that a lower starting PH would present a more defined Hop character in a beer brewed with that yeast.

 

[couchsending]

Do they mention citric acid during that interview? I thought Auggie started to mention microplaning some Vitamin C? Vitamin C is Absorbic acid that needs to be combined with something else to prevent it from becoming a super oxidizer?? Haven’t read enough on it.

A citric acid addition right before KO might be an interesting variable to play with.

 

[TheHairyHop]

I recently bought a new probe for my Milwaukee. I'll start taking measurements again and see what pops

 

[Sawhorse-Josh]

I think this description of Alter Ego from the TH site is new (emphasis mine);

"As a live beer made with hand selected fresh hop varieties, we kindly ask that you keep Alter Ego cold at all times and enjoy it fresh for the best experience."

 

[couchsending]

the ol' Mosaic #hopcreep

 

[skibb]

So this #hopcreep - not sure it is varietal specific. Hops in general are about 1-2% sugar and do contain amylase that can break down sugars, strangely enough.

Last CBC Allagash had a discussion about how their Hoppy Table Beer constantly over carbonated and increased alcohol (I think around .5% ABV increase).

Also, I've heard anecdotally that Vinnie from RR counts on his DH to add .3% ABV for Pliny. Pretty crazy.

Personally, I've never experienced this phenomena but I also don't package at my brewery or let my kegs get cold for any significant period of time.

 

[couchsending]

I thought I had read or heard somewhere that some varietals had more of the certain enzyme in them than others. mosaic being one of those varietals... could be wrong though

 

[NJGeorge]

Stumbled upon this last night. By no means does this mean they are blending, but it’s interesting. I guess you can then blend the finished beers to make something new.. going to be giving that a shot soon.

 

[couchsending]

On the blending note. I know we've discussed how The Alchemist blends 4 tanks of Heady into one bright tank already but one thing I found interesting is that in an interview I listened to recently he said they only brew three batches a day which means if they are blending 4 tanks one tank is on a different timeline. Got me thinking also about how Kimmich bragged once that someone stopped by to test the DO in one of their Brites and it was less than 1ppb and the person thought their instrument was broken. I wonder if that 4th tank is used to introduce younger beer that's still fermenting to naturally carbonate, deliver some fresh hop oils, and scavenge all available 02. Seems like a bit of a stretch but you never know.

 

[melville]

crafted with "Pale Malt" and "simple malt bill" are your only real clues — if you get them at all — on the new description pages.

vs.

In the course of the Curiosity series, I have discovered specialty malts that play well with, and accentuate certain hop varieties. In fact, I think this is a ‘secret’ in a lot of Tree House beers. They all have vastly different malt bills that have developed over time.

 

[melville]

crafted with "Pale Malt" and "simple malt bill" are your only real clues — if you get them at all — on the new description pages.

vs.

In the course of the Curiosity series, I have discovered specialty malts that play well with, and accentuate certain hop varieties. In fact, I think this is a ‘secret’ in a lot of Tree House beers. They all have vastly different malt bills that have developed over time.

Vienna has to be one. I'll say that many of the beers now have a very similar appearance. Maybe Green and Haze look different, seems to have a lighter SRM in most recent pics.

 

[melville]

Likewise, Nate Lanier, head brewer at Tree House Brewing says of his IPAs, "we use just pale malt as 95 percent of our grist in several beers."

And those beers are called Bright:Simcoe/Amarillo, Bright:Nelson, Bright:Mosaic

(yes, it's time for me to put an order in for malts)

 

[NJGeorge]

Hmm so what about the whole “just two-row and carafoam” thing? Maybe they’re just brushing people off with that advice? You’re right though, there has to be more complex malt to those beers and we just have to experiment more.

 

[melville]

Hmm so what about the whole “just two-row and carafoam” thing? Maybe they’re just brushing people off with that advice? You’re right though, there has to be more complex malt to those beers and we just have to experiment more.

Well I think we have to assume that carafoam is in most of their hazy beers — a. he said it. b. I've seen it at the brewery.

Vienna is something I've seen at the brewery. It's SRM is light enough to be consistent with their appearance as of late. That's one specialty malt.

Crystal.

Pale malt leaves a lot of possibilities. Company (we're assuming it is still Rahr) and type (always 2-row?).

Oat something sometimes (perhaps now most times?)

 

[NJGeorge]

I’m definitely going to experiment with just pale malt not the one sold as two-row which is what I assume we all been using. It’s slightly darker in color and sweeter as it is kilned longer.

 

[melville]

I’m definitely going to experiment with just pale malt not the one sold as two-row which is what I assume we all been using. It’s slightly darker in color and sweeter as it is kilned longer.

I've always suspected that one was in Julius at some percentage from the color and is consistent with the "pale malt" description.

He has said on Twitter that the recipes are basically the same, but process and quality of ingredients has changed and or improved.

 

[couchsending]

Well I think we have to assume that carafoam is in most of their hazy beers — a. he said it. b. I've seen it at the brewery.

Vienna is something I've seen at the brewery. It's SRM is light enough to be consistent with their appearance as of late. That's one specialty malt.

Crystal.

Pale malt leaves a lot of possibilities. Company (we're assuming it is still Rahr) and type (always 2-row?).

Oat something sometimes (perhaps now most times?)

Personally I think as Homebrewers we’re so prone to over complicating recipes. So many good pro brewers I talk to especially about crazy hoppy beers have the simplest recipes.

If I had to guess the Vienna is most likely for Eureka where you need the added malt complexity. I doubt any Double IPA is more than 2 Row, a small percentage of maybe C40, and Carafoam??? (And brewers crystals instead of sugar)

What I don’t get is the permanent haze stability if they’re using kettle fining agents and no flaked adjuncts. It’s either a combo of the really poor floccing T-58/WB-06 or maybe the use of Tanal A or something non grain bill related. I’ve had SO4/007 on its own drop clear with plenty of wheat, no whirlfloc, and tons of high polyphenol hops added at all varying stages of fermentation.

 

[couchsending]

Big fan of the Dingemans pale ale malt personally if people are looking to go down that road.

 

[TheHairyHop]

I've made IPAs with Belgian pale. I quite like it. As far as recipes go, I've known some famous brewers who formulate the ratios in their recipe based on whole bags, because they don't want leftovers. Sometimes it's easiest to just go with something so simple

 

[Jwin]

On the blending note. I know we've discussed how The Alchemist blends 4 tanks of Heady into one bright tank already but one thing I found interesting is that in an interview I listened to recently he said they only brew three batches a day which means if they are blending 4 tanks one tank is on a different timeline. Got me thinking also about how Kimmich bragged once that someone stopped by to test the DO in one of their Brites and it was less than 1ppb and the person thought their instrument was broken. I wonder if that 4th tank is used to introduce younger beer that's still fermenting to naturally carbonate, deliver some fresh hop oils, and scavenge all available 02. Seems like a bit of a stretch but you never know.

In the new brewery he blends six tanks.
Old one was four.
Also, interesting note:doesn't use pumps after hops hit wort. Everything is pushed with air after that. Says the pump heads are detrimental to the hops compounds. That's dedication

 

[couchsending]

Heady isn't brewed in the new brewery though

 

[Jwin]

Vienna is something I've seen at the brewery. It's SRM is light enough to be consistent with their appearance as of late. That's one specialty malt.

Not trying to be a d**k here but Vienna is a base malt with a srm of ~3.5. by historical standards, that's pale malt. 2 row is just under 2 srm...

Also, listened to an episode of the session on TBN today with the brewer of cloudwater. Said they use biofine in their unitanks. He believes the Haze is purely hop compounds binding with protiens. Now they're not milkshake hazy but it's still there...
And both brewers we're at Elysian up until the buyout, so they probably know a few things. Also, still use the same yeast from Elysian. They had it banked at imperial under the name "corporate yeast" or something like that. Just some more info I guess but I think so much boils down to chloride levels and a sh*t ton of hops. Scott Janish has a really good write up on softness/mouth feel on his blog from several months back. If anyone hasn't read through his blog, you are missing out. Scottjanish.com iirc.
Don't know if (m)any are following but Scott Janish is also releasing a book slated for summer time. He has spent a lot of time on the NEIPA topic and I expect more info will be following. I also expect saison info and mix fermentation with wine yeast data judging by his blog and Twitter feed.
Cheers.
Edit, link to blog post and fixed html
http://scottjanish.com/chasing-mouthfeel-softness/

 

[Jwin]

I think I found the secret to perfect mouthfeel! It's been staring at me from my kitchen cabinets for years. [emoji39]

 

[melville]

Personally I think as Homebrewers we’re so prone to over complicating recipes. So many good pro brewers I talk to especially about crazy hoppy beers have the simplest recipes.

If I had to guess the Vienna is most likely for Eureka where you need the added malt complexity. I doubt any Double IPA is more than 2 Row, a small percentage of maybe C40, and Carafoam??? (And brewers crystals instead of sugar)

What I don’t get is the permanent haze stability if they’re using kettle fining agents and no flaked adjuncts. It’s either a combo of the really poor floccing T-58/WB-06 or maybe the use of Tanal A or something non grain bill related. I’ve had SO4/007 on its own drop clear with plenty of wheat, no whirlfloc, and tons of high polyphenol hops added at all varying stages of fermentation.

Not trying to be a d**k here but Vienna is a base malt with a srm of ~3.5. by historical standards, that's pale malt. 2 row is just under 2 srm...

I'm interpreting Nate as basically meaning anything that's not 2-row as a specialty malt, and in that usage I think Nate might say that something like Vienna, and even Dextrin and carafoam are "specialty" malts.

Totally agree that "simple" can be and often is great. But also some of us in here are tinkering with 4 yeasts and elaborate fermentation methods and mixing when we could all simply be using 1318.

Anyway if Nate says "certain specialty malts accentuate certain hop varieties" and that is in fact one of TH's "secrets" I'm curious, especially if that leads to some amount of logical variety in my own beers.

combed through all the curiosity series where he says this experimentation takes place: 2-row, Pale, Caramel, Dextrin, and Carafoam, Vienna (#11), Munich (#12), wheat (#6), flaked oats (#1)

In a tweet Bright is "2-row and carafoam"

Does Haze have Vienna or Munich "very little specialty malt in Haze"

No direct answers on questions re: malted oats

 

[thunderaxe]

a few thoughts:
there are some things that different people are more sensitive to tasting then others, i.e. the "cat piss" smell in certain hops, which I've never gotten. for me though, it's the presence of munich or similar malts in hoppy beers. i can usually tell from the first sip, it just jumps out at me like a distinct bready taste and i swear it's in julius. it might be vienna instead, i'm not certain i can reliably distinguish between the two but it definitely strikes me as munich. every other time i've tasted that in a beer i've looked up the grain bill if it's available and it's been munich.

a number of people have pointed out that treehouse beers tend to have a relatively subdued aroma compared to their massive flavour, and i've found that to be the case too. that points to biotransformation for me too, especially considering this quote i came across recently from one of the brewmasters from grimm (btw, the one beer i've had of theirs blew my mind way more than anything i've had from treehouse or trillium):
"We see biotransformation as a trade-off. We seem to gain "juice" at the expense of raw aromatic intensity/dankness when we employ it."

JC from trillium, on the other hand, has said that they save all of their dry hops for a single massive charge at the tail end of fermentation which makes me think they're not big into the biotransformation thing.

 

[Northern_Brewer]

"We see biotransformation as a trade-off. We seem to gain "juice" at the expense of raw aromatic intensity/dankness when we employ it."

That was certainly my experience with that brew I mentioned above - Chinook + M36 was hoppy and grapefruity but 1-dimensional, Chinook + T-58 was a bit more subdued but had gone more limey, Chinook + M36/T-58/WB-06 was much fainter but far more complex.

Just as a thought, Cloudwater blogged recently about using their new GEA centrifuge to control hop burn (although I suspect their beancounters are more interested in increasing yields by 5-10%!) and mention that Trillium, Other Half, Lervig and Modern Times all use centrifugation. Is it known if TH use centrifuges?