Isolated Yeast (Tree House): How to Identify and Characterize?

[SkiHazy]

Wanted to update the thread on my tree house yeast blend search and experimentation.

The science says it is a blend (from this HBT thread and other blog posts) and I believe that. I’ve brewed many beers with the blend suggested (S04, T58, WB06) but i don’t think it’s the right yeast blend. There are so many yeast strains that were not considered in the analysis, they are missing the correct yeast strains in the blend. The only way to find out would be to do the yeast comparison on agar plates again with a much wider library of yeasts.

My closest results have been with combining S04 and Verdant at 45% each, then 10% T58. Always under pitch cell count by a little bit (~75% of recommended pitch).

This leads me to believe they are using a British yeast as the main blended with a clean-ish Belgian-y yeast. If the yeast experiment were to happen again it should focus on all whitbread-adjacent yeasts (1318 variants, British ales, London ales, etc.) and then also check all strains of cleaner Belgian or wit bier.

 

[beervoid]

Wanted to update the thread on my tree house yeast blend search and experimentation.

The science says it is a blend (from this HBT thread and other blog posts) and I believe that. I’ve brewed many beers with the blend suggested (S04, T58, WB06) but i don’t think it’s the right yeast blend. There are so many yeast strains that were not considered in the analysis, they are missing the correct yeast strains in the blend. The only way to find out would be to do the yeast comparison on agar plates again with a much wider library of yeasts.

My closest results have been with combining S04 and Verdant at 45% each, then 10% T58. Always under pitch cell count by a little bit (~75% of recommended pitch).

This leads me to believe they are using a British yeast as the main blended with a clean-ish Belgian-y yeast. If the yeast experiment were to happen again it should focus on all whitbread-adjacent yeasts (1318 variants, British ales, London ales, etc.) and then also check all strains of cleaner Belgian or wit bier.

What do you get from the T58?

 

[SkiHazy]

What do you get from the T58?

Haven’t don’t a with and without test. I think the T-58 adds to the mouthfeel. Also may add esters that wouldn’t otherwise be there.

I have wanted to try other yeasts as the “10%” addition to a mixture. S-33, Windsor, and BRY-97 are all semi-close to T58 on the yeast family tree.

I’ve heard that BRY-97 is the dry version of WY1272, which supposedly has better pH buffering capability than most yeast. So it could help buffet pH against large dry hop.

 

[Northern_Brewer]

I have wanted to try other yeasts as the “10%” addition to a mixture. S-33, Windsor, and BRY-97 are all semi-close to T58 on the yeast family tree.

BRY-97 isn't part of that group, it's a mistake. It's definitely part of the Chico family, and probably a member of the 1056/A07/OYL-004 subgroup. See links in :

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/thread...-white-labs-yeast.642831/page-2#post-10260458

 

[LumberZach]

So I opened a can of Very Green I got from a buddy last weekend. I had doubts, but when I smelled it I got bubblegum. When I tasted it I got bubblegum and that vintage 2015 Green flavor and super soft mouthfeel. I was shocked. With that being said, it has rekindled my interest in trying to get something close to what that signature TH yeast character is.

My plan is to first see what each of the supposed three yeasts do. I'm going to do multiple 1000ml batches. I'm going to use Pilsen DME to get a 1.073 OG. I'm not going to hop it. I just want to see what each yeast gives. I'll try underpitching S-04 and fermenting both cooler (62-64F) and warmer (65-68F). As far as the T-58 and WB-06, echoALEia suggested that maybe overpitching both and fermenting warmer was the key. I'm willing to try anything anyone suggests.

As for equipment, I devised a simple fermenter using a 2 or 3L soda bottle, a Kegland Carbonation Cap Tee Fitting, and two Kegland ball lock disconnects screwed onto the tee with one having a diptube. I have the ability to temp control using a mini fridge and inkbird, but I don't have multiple mini fridges to do multiple tests all at once. I also have a ThermoWorks ph meter that I can adjust the wort these yeasts go into. This will be a slower process, but I'm willing to put alot of time into this.

If anyone has any suggestions, tips, insight or anything else, feel free to reply back or even PM me.

 

[TBryerton]

So I opened a can of Very Green I got from a buddy last weekend. I had doubts, but when I smelled it I got bubblegum. When I tasted it I got bubblegum and that vintage 2015 Green flavor and super soft mouthfeel. I was shocked. With that being said, it has rekindled my interest in trying to get something close to what that signature TH yeast character is.

My plan is to first see what each of the supposed three yeasts do. I'm going to do multiple 1000ml batches. I'm going to use Pilsen DME to get a 1.073 OG. I'm not going to hop it. I just want to see what each yeast gives. I'll try underpitching S-04 and fermenting both cooler (62-64F) and warmer (65-68F). As far as the T-58 and WB-06, echoALEia suggested that maybe overpitching both and fermenting warmer was the key. I'm willing to try anything anyone suggests.

As for equipment, I devised a simple fermenter using a 2 or 3L soda bottle, a Kegland Carbonation Cap Tee Fitting, and two Kegland ball lock disconnects screwed onto the tee with one having a diptube. I have the ability to temp control using a mini fridge and inkbird, but I don't have multiple mini fridges to do multiple tests all at once. I also have a ThermoWorks ph meter that I can adjust the wort these yeasts go into. This will be a slower process, but I'm willing to put alot of time into this.

If anyone has any suggestions, tips, insight or anything else, feel free to reply back or even PM me.

I wasted a lot of time and money trying to reproduce that TH flavor. A few of my takeaways…
- I drink a decent amount of TH, and it’s been a long time since I’ve had a beer that has that vintage TH flavor. At least at the level is use to be at.
- t58 and wb06 stick out like a sore thumb.
- Couple that w/the fact that TH has historically struggled w/consistency, I’m convinced that if they co-pitched all three at the beginning of fermentation, there would definitely be batches where those flavors would be obvious.

 

[SkiHazy]

@LumberZach did you get around to that experiment?

 

[LumberZach]

@LumberZach did you get around to that experiment?

I didn't. I tried doing it, but it became too time consuming. Sorry.

 

[butterblum]

Maybe this info will alter the direction of this discussion:

In this video, The Craft Beer Channel is interviewing the head brewer at Verdant (James) and asks him specifically about their house yeast "strain" - part of which is now being distributed by Lallemand.
James explains that they simply started with a regular pitch of LAIII, which then began to change over time. When they went to have it analyzed/identified, the lab found three different sacch strains present, only one of which was isolated into the dry yeast that is now distributed by Lallemand; they explain that this strain was dominant in proportion to the other two.
It sounds eerily similar to the Treehouse analysis - perhaps the "mixing" of yeasts was never intentional at all, but instead a byproduct of harvesting and re-pitching a "single" strain over time.

 

[beervoid]

Maybe this info will alter the direction of this discussion:

In this video, The Craft Beer Channel is interviewing the head brewer at Verdant (James) and asks him specifically about their house yeast strain - part of which is now being distributed by Lallemand.
James explains that they simply started with a regular pitch of LAIII, which then began to change over time. When they went to have it analyzed/identified, the lab found three different sacch strains present, only one of which was isolated into the dry yeast that is now distributed by Lallemand. They explain that this strain was dominant in proportion to the other two.
It sounds eerily similar to the Treehouse analysis - perhaps the "mixing" of yeasts was never intentional at all, but instead a byproduct of harvesting and re-pitching a "single" strain over time.

Maybe this info will alter the direction of this discussion:

In this video, The Craft Beer Channel is interviewing the head brewer at Verdant (James) and asks him specifically about their house yeast strain - part of which is now being distributed by Lallemand.
James explains that they simply started with a regular pitch of LAIII, which then began to change over time. When they went to have it analyzed/identified, the lab found three different sacch strains present, only one of which was isolated into the dry yeast that is now distributed by Lallemand. They explain that this strain was dominant in proportion to the other two.
It sounds eerily similar to the Treehouse analysis - perhaps the "mixing" of yeasts was never intentional at all, but instead a byproduct of harvesting and re-pitching a "single" strain over time.

Tree House specifically mentions their house yeast is a blend

 

[butterblum]

Tree House specifically mentions their house yeast is a blend

I would assume Verdant would also call their house yeast "a blend" - the use of that term doesn't indicate that the strains were intentionally mixed in known proportions.
I believe Nate states somewhere that their "blend" is unique and unable to be replicated - to me, that echoes of a natural process somewhat out of a brewer's control, rather than the intentional mixing of known strains in specific proportions.

 

[day_trippr]

Or that could have been Nate's inner huckster keeping the ankle biters at bay.

I think TH is a bit too large to leave their flagship brews to evolutionary chance...

 

[butterblum]

I think TH is a bit too large to leave their flagship brews to evolutionary chance...

I'm not sure that the above is best described as "evolutionary chance."
But perhaps it could be both - if there are 3 strains present in measured samples (current), that doesn't necessarily mean that they were initially pitched at the same time (age in generations of harvest), or in the same proportions in which they are currently detected.
Perhaps what started as a blend was intentionally - or experimentally - altered through pitching rates, fermentation temperatures, etc. and the current blend is a replicated version of the generation that they most preferred.

 

[beervoid]

I would assume Verdant would also call their house yeast "a blend" - the use of that term doesn't indicate that the strains were intentionally mixed in known proportions.
I believe Nate states somewhere that their "blend" is unique and unable to be replicated - to me, that echoes of a natural process somewhat out of a brewer's control, rather than the intentional mixing of known strains in specific proportions.

they are intentionally mixing, they also stated in the yeast test series that they are working on a new blend.

 

[DevilsCups]

Has anyone watched the latest Treehouse Brewer vs. Brewer YT video? They barely touch on it, but yeast is a recurring topic. Many of the brewers said they'd re-brew their beers with Treehouses house "blend". In the comments someone asked if one yeast would out-compete the others over time, and who I assume is Nate replied with: