So are you making S-n-S starters now?
4 at a time, using large jugs with 1 liter wort in each?
Is my smack pack still viable?
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4 at a time, using large jugs with 1 liter wort in each?
beren
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No I’m using a stir plate but I learned that a shaken starter can be just as good
VikeMan
It ain't all burritos and strippers, my friend.
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I find it interesting that the title of the blog article is "Shaken, not Stirred: The Stir Plate Myth Buster." But there is not a single piece of quanitative data to indicate that anything has been "busted," in terms of the "new" method (which wasn't really new, BTW) resulting in better beers.
I've said this before, in various ways (about other topics)... the fact that someone has tried a new process and acceptable beer was the result does not imply a best practice. It could be, but it doesn't follow naturally.
That said, I'm all for the "shaken not stirred" folks doing what they want to do.
beren
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I think it’s more that the myth is “shaken is nowhere near as good as a starter” but if you shake vigorously and get a lot of foam your starters makes your beer just as fast as a star plate. You’re right there’s no numbers posted but if every beer starts visible and vigorous fermentation quickly, you’re doing something correctly. I’m actually surprised more people don’t say they use an oxygen wand for the starter. I don’t even use one for the wort. I’m pour from a glass carboy 3 foot down into the fermenter, let it splash and foam.
[Raises hand] I do.
I have the Williams .5 micron wand, and a 20 cubic foot O2 bottle with a flow meter, might as well use it for a jump start on the starter
Cheers!
[I'll raise my hand too]. I have the same thing as day_trippr, except I used the little red oxygen tanks you can buy at Home Depot. For starters and wort.
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UPDATE: I made an 1800ml starter 24 hours ago, and there is zero activity. Every time I shake it, there is absolutely no foam. Smells like wort, not like yeast and beer. I know it's relatively early, but I've never had no response from a starter after one day. I'm pessimistic. The question is, should I be? I'm having technical issues trying to add a photo, but trust me, it's a dark, lifeless flask that I think is cackling at me. Any thoughts?
Give it another day or 2.
BTW, how do you "shake" an (erlenmeyer) flask? Especially an almost full 2 liter one? I can't even swirl one when it's that full.
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Yeah, it's more of a swirl. And a very careful swirl at that.
Do you happen to have gallon (3.5 or 4 liter) "wine" jug with a screw lid, or a well fitting stopper? That makes a decent s-n-s vessel.
Shake it to create lots of foam.
You can't do that with an erlenmeyer flask, and shouldn't, it's not safe, much too fragile.
Shake it to create lots of foam.
You can't do that with an erlenmeyer flask, and shouldn't, it's not safe, much too fragile.
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I don't. Would a glass growler fit the bill?
Yeah, got a gallon one? Or perhaps even better, two 1/2 gallon ones?
Make sure to always release the stopper or lid somewhat after shaking, so there won't be any pressure built up when the yeast gets active. Or "tent" the opening with aluminum foil.
Keep good sanitation, you don't want to grow bugs.
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Ah, it looks like I only have one half-gallon growler. Back to swirling, I guess.Yeah, got a gallon one? Or perhaps even better, two 1/2 gallon ones?
Make sure to always release the stopper or lid somewhat after shaking, so there won't be any pressure built up when the yeast gets active. Or "tent" the opening with aluminum foil.
Keep good sanitation, you don't want to grow bugs.
I'd pour half of the starter into that growler, splitting the starter. That will make swirling the flask much more efficient with much less risk of blow off once it takes off.
Before transferring, homogenize the starter in the flask by giving it a good stir, using a long sanitized spoon, or stirring stick, or so.
S-n-s the growler as if it owes you money with the screw cap on it. But let air get in there (while CO2 off gases) between shakes using the loosely crimped aluminum foil cap. Use good sanitation with all that.
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I'll give it a shot!
beren
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That seems like a pretty big starter for an older pack of yeast. I would have gone smaller and weaker for a few days then bumped it up. It might take a few days for activity to be noticeable.
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How often should I shake with the lid on?
petersongod
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There's a chance your Wyeast 2278 yeast pack is still viable, even though it's past the best-by date. Make a starter to check its activity. If it ferments successfully, the yeast is likely good to use.
Since it's s-n-s, whenever you can, say 4-6 times a day. More won't hurt, but there are diminishing returns at some point. When shaking you want to create as much foam as you can. Each (tiny) foam bubble holds 21% Oxygen, surrounded by a film of suspended yeast cells.
Just don't forget to release the lid after each shaking.
That's why I suggested, after each shaking, to replace the screw cap with a sanitized aluminum foil "tent" so you just know gasses can freely exchange. Generated CO2 being able to escape being most important, or else... boom!
Just keep some sanitizer (e.g., Starsan) on hand.
Northern_Brewer
British - apparently some US company stole my name
+1 on all of that. The usual recommendation is to go in 10x steps by volume, 1800ml is too much of a jump - it's just a bit lost in there at the moment. And certainly with my multi-year-old packs I start with 5% DME for the first one and then step up to 10% DME (~1.040) - it just reduces the stress on old cells.
Ideally, yup, that would have been the much better strategy!
Since the OP already made an 1.8 liter starter, there's no going back from that.
He can make the best of what he has now, and hopefully it will take off.
beren
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Yeah, I’d let it go at least a week looking for results, hopefully he didn’t brew yet.
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I didn't. Lesson learned, though.
You both suggested these step-up strategies earlier in the thread in early June, almost a month back.
For homebrewers not used to liquid (wet) yeast, making yeast starters (and step-ups) can be a somewhat murky subject.
My first encounter using liquid yeast (back in 2009) speaks volumes to that, making a 5 gallon batch of Lager, my 2nd brew, with a single WhiteLabs tube I got in my homebrew store...
beren
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Yeah I never did a smaller or weaker starter for weak/old yeast until I read about harvesting yeast from bottles. I’d just make a 1l starter for everything and let it go as long as it needed. Sometimes I’d decant and make a 2nd 1l starter which almost always was fast and strong.
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Update to the update: There is foam now after a swirl and yeast on the bottom of the flask when it’s resting. The growler is dark and hard to see well, but I assume the yeast is doing its thing there, too.
I’m thinking of cold crashing in a few days. Should I combine the two starters into the flask? Or does that risk contamination? My concern about cold crashing the growler is that it’ll be almost impossible to see where the yeast line is when I go to dump the unwanted starter beer before adding it to the fermenter.
I’m thinking of cold crashing in a few days. Should I combine the two starters into the flask? Or does that risk contamination? My concern about cold crashing the growler is that it’ll be almost impossible to see where the yeast line is when I go to dump the unwanted starter beer before adding it to the fermenter.
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Looking good! ^
Integrating O2 into the starter (beer) is important, as it will keep the yeast in propagation (growing) mode, making more new, healthy cells. That's what you want at this point.
When it's time to cold crash, you can combine them into the flask, so decanting later will be easier.
Keep them growing as they are, in 2 vessels. Keep swirling/shaking.
Integrating O2 into the starter (beer) is important, as it will keep the yeast in propagation (growing) mode, making more new, healthy cells. That's what you want at this point.
When it's time to cold crash, you can combine them into the flask, so decanting later will be easier.
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Nice. Thanks for all the help. I ordered another smack pack of 2278 as a backup in case there aren't enough cells when it's fermenting. I figure I win either way.
Adding a pack at that time would most likely be a bit too late. One pack is not enough to ferment 5 gallons of Lager, even it was packaged that same day. Most packs we get in the homebrew stores and mail order are 2-4 month old, on average. That why we make starters well ahead of brewday. That starter also helps us getting the right pitch amount.I ordered another smack pack of 2278 as a backup in case there aren't enough cells when it's fermenting. I figure I win either way.
Now if you make a starter with that new pack a few days before you brew, that would be your backup. If it turns out you don't need it, save the starter or yeast slurry in the fridge for a next brew.
BTW, since both starters are from the same pack and starter wort, then split, your flask is your tell tale, while we can presume the growler is behaving similarly, or even better as your using the s-n-s method instead of intermittently swirling.
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beren
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Since you have an extra pack, might wanna look into starting a yeast bank. It's way cheaper than buying $12-15 packs. Depending on how often yuo use each yeast you could just keep a 1l slurry in a mason jar, or go full on frozen like Maintaining A Healthy Yeast Bank Long Term
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beren
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de-gas it and it'll drop clear. Then you can decant and make another starter or do whatever you want with it
That looks decent for a swirled starter. The thin white layer is the best, most pure yeast; the darker layer underneath is a mixture of that same pure yeast as well as dead cells and trub. At this point, all of it is useful.
After crashing a little longer and decanting, I'd make another starter with the leftover slurry. Then you'll have enough for a good solid 5 gallon Lager pitch and save some (20-30%) out for the next starter.
If you brew often enough look into a stir plate. You could even build one, and while at it, build 2, or a twin setup.
BTW, I just cooked up another batch of 4 gallons concentrated (1.092) starter wort. I'm freezing most of it in 48 oz tubs. At time of use they get diluted 1.5x for 1.037 starter wort. Reboiled for all security.
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That looks decent for a swirled starter. The thin white layer is the best, most pure yeast; the darker layer underneath is a mixture of that same pure yeast as well as dead cells and trub. At this point, all of it is useful.
After crashing a little longer and decanting, I'd make another starter with the leftover slurry. Then you'll have enough for a good solid 5 gallon Lager pitch and save some (20-30%) out for the next starter.
If you brew often enough look into a stir plate. You could even build one, and while at it, build 2, or a twin setup.
BTW, I just cooked up another batch of 4 gallons concentrated (1.092) starter wort. I'm freezing most of it in 48 oz tubs. At time of use they get diluted 1.5x for 1.037 starter wort. Reboiled for all security.
A stir plate will be my next purchase. I never considered a repetitive motion injury a possibility when I got into homebrewing.
beren
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Need more keg presses.A stir plate will be my next purchase. I never considered a repetitive motion injury a possibility when I got into homebrewing.
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beren
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One thing I noticed with the cheaper stir plates is the magnets don't seem super strong, and they are closer together which limits larger stir bars. Even in starters I feel like I should be able to go faster than I can before the bar gets thrown off the magnet. It works though!A stir plate will be my next purchase. I never considered a repetitive motion injury a possibility when I got into homebrewing.
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A belated update: The yeast worked just fine, with most of the activity in the first five or six days. The gravity has been at 1.012 for about a week. Thanks for all the help and advice. I learned a lot!
