Yeast starter not starting

[HB2112]

I bought some brew supplies a few months ago to stock up while on sale. I noticed the Wyeast 1318 smack packs I had were going to expire Feb. 7th. So I tried to make a starter out of the first pack. Starter recipe as follows 1500 ml distilled water 1 cup DME. Boiled this for 10 minutes transferred to 2 ltr. flask cooled to a little below 80 F and pitched the yeast. Yeast was removed from refrigerator in the morning allowed to warm up to room temp. smacked and let sit for another 3 plus hours. After yeast was pitched I stirred well and put in a foam stopper. FYI everything was clean and sanitized with PBW and Star San. Then starter was put on a magnetic stir plate. The past starters I've made have always been milky looking by the next day and if I turned up the stir plate would foam to the top if I wasn't careful. After 48 hours starter wasn't milky and didn't foam up when I turned up the stir plate. Flask was wrapped with a towel for insulation and stayed between 72 and 74 the whole time. So I figured something must have gone wrong. So I repeated the process yesterday. It's been about 14-15 hours since yeast was pitched and the same thing has happened. One thing I noticed on the second batch is that when I shook up the smack pack after smacking I could hear fizzing inside of the smack pack. However, the pack never inflated all of the way and it wasn't leaking because I squeezed it and no air came out. Did I just get some crappy yeast? I paid extra for the ice packs and insulated box for the yeast and I ordered well into the fall when my local temps were down into 60's and 70's. Ordered from Austin Homebrew. Any ideas? All input appreciated.

Thank you

 

[lumpher]

Sounds like you got some dead yeast.

 

[HB2112]

That's kind of what I figured. I'm going to give it another day and see what happens.

 

[McMullan]

Past its best. The low viability and poor condition of living cells pitched into such a large starter translates into a significant under seeding (under pitch). It might delay noticeable yeast activity by few to several days. Using less starter wort, say 300ml, then stepping up to 1500 would have been much better advice. I do wish all wet yeast suppliers would be honest about it. The conflict between the science and their business models doesn’t do them many favours, imho.

 

[IslandLizard]

I've had yeast starters take 3-5 days before they showed any sign of live/growth.
With older yeast in big starter volumes (like yours) it may take a few days to see any activity/growth/milkiness.

I hope you didn't pour your first starter down the drain, to make the 2nd one.
As @McMullan said, with an older pack of yeast, 300-400 ml of starter wort would be much better. Then step up to 1200-1600ml from there.

I also prefer to leave ample headspace in the flask due to unpredicted blow-offs I experienced, and thus rarely make starters larger than 1600ml in a 2 liter flask. If I need more yeast I'll use 2 or more 2 liter flasks.

I use this yeast calculator for my estimates:
https://www.brewunited.com/yeast_calculator.php

 

[HB2112]

I've had yeast starters take 3-5 days before they showed any sign of live/growth.
With older yeast in big starter volumes (like yours) it may take a few days to see any activity/growth/milkiness.

I hope you didn't pour your first starter down the drain, to make the 2nd one.
As @McMullan said, with an older pack of yeast, 300-400 ml of starter wort would be much better. Then step up to 1200-1600ml from there.

I also prefer to leave ample headspace in the flask due to unpredicted blow-offs I experienced, and thus rarely make starters larger than 1600ml in a 2 liter flask. If I need more yeast I'll use 2 or more 2 liter flasks.

I use this yeast calculator for my estimates:
https://www.brewunited.com/yeast_calculator.php

Yes I did throw away the first starter to start the second one. And as you said it is finally turning milky and started doing it's thing, after 72 hours. However still not chugging away. When I turn up the stir plate I get about a 1/4 inch of foam that drops right back down. Every starter I've made in the past is usually chugging away after 12 hours and gets super foamy right away when I turn up the stir plate. I'm going to see if I can find the empty Wyeast pack in the trash to get the dates for the calculator that you posted. Thanks for sharing that link. I've learned a lot this week. So I'm guessing that a Wyeast pack is approximately 100 billion cell count? I put in an approximate production date of 9/1/23 into the calculator since I bought all of this stuff in October and the calculator said it was 35% viable. Does this mean it went from 100 billion cells to 35 billion? Yes I'm relatively new to brewing but didn't even think about the yeast degrading that fast over time. I'll give it another day then refrigerate pour off wort and run another starter at the level recommended on the calculator, which was a 1 liter starter with 101 grams of DME shooting for an SG of 1.037. That was with the guesstimate of mfg. date. So I reckon this is probably why my final SG isn't getting as low as I expected on some of my beers. Once again thank you all for the help I greatly appreciate it.

 

[RM-MN]

What is the temperature of the "beer" on the stir plate? Your previous starters may have had warmer temperatures which causes faster growth but this is now winter in the northern hemisphere and often the indoor temperatures drop.

 

[jdauria]

Wyeast packs best by date means they were produced 6 months earlier. So a pack with 100B cells with best by date of 2/7/24 was produced around 8/7/23. Per the yeast calculator I use (on Brewer's Friend) that puts the viability at 0%. Of course that's just an estimate and you make get some yeast out of it, but would need to make like 3-4 starters probably, building each up from what little yeast there was in the prior one after decanting the liquid. That's one of the problems with ordering liquid yeast online, you never know what you are going to get freshness wise. Even before my LHBS closed, they always put the older yeast in front of the newer in the fridge to try to sell it first. Of course I caught on to that and started grabbing from the back instead.

 

[HB2112]

What is the temperature of the "beer" on the stir plate? Your previous starters may have had warmer temperatures which causes faster growth but this is now winter in the northern hemisphere and often the indoor temperatures drop.

Temperature has been between 72 and 74 F

 

[HB2112]

Wyeast packs best by date means they were produced 6 months earlier. So a pack with 100B cells with best by date of 2/7/24 was produced around 8/7/23. Per the yeast calculator I use (on Brewer's Friend) that puts the viability at 0%. Of course that's just an estimate and you make get some yeast out of it, but would need to make like 3-4 starters probably, building each up from what little yeast there was in the prior one after decanting the liquid. That's one of the problems with ordering liquid yeast online, you never know what you are going to get freshness wise. Even before my LHBS closed, they always put the older yeast in front of the newer in the fridge to try to sell it first. Of course I caught on to that and started grabbing from the back instead.

I have a local hardware store that carries brewing supplies and you always have to check the dates on their liquid yeast. I found some that were almost a year past expiration date. I will definitely pay more attention to this in the future. Thanks again to all of you for your help.

 

[IslandLizard]

Yes I did throw away the first starter to start the second one.

That's sad, and unnecessary. It was probably just getting there. Oh well...

And as you said it is finally turning milky and started doing it's thing, after 72 hours. However still not chugging away. When I turn up the stir plate I get about a 1/4 inch of foam that drops right back down.

That's the sign she's alive, the one you've been waiting for!
The foam is from CO2 coming out of solution. Although we prefer to grow yeast without fermenting much, it's a just a harmless side effect.

So I'm guessing that a Wyeast pack is approximately 100 billion cell count? I put in an approximate production date of 9/1/23 into the calculator since I bought all of this stuff in October and the calculator said it was 35% viable. Does this mean it went from 100 billion cells to 35 billion?

That's what it means. But it can be much higher, or lower, depending on many factors.
But almost regardless of the estimated starting count, the (estimated) resulting count can be quite accurate.

I've built starters from liquid yeast that I had kept in the fridge for 8 years (!), and still came around marvelously in 2 or 3 rounds The resulting pitches in 3 and 5 gallon production batches worked like a charm too, producing excellent beer.

 

[HB2112]

That's sad, and unnecessary. It was probably just getting there. Oh well...

That's the sign she's alive, the one you've been waiting for!
The foam is from CO2 coming out of solution. Although we prefer to grow yeast without fermenting much, it's a just a harmless side effect.

That's what it means. But it can be much higher, or lower, depending on many factors.
But almost regardless of the estimated starting count, the (estimated) resulting count can be quite accurate.

I've built starters from liquid yeast that I had kept in the fridge for 8 years (!), and still came around marvelously in 2 or 3 rounds The resulting pitches in 3 and 5 gallon production batches worked like a charm too, producing excellent beer.

Thanks again for your help with this. I'll run another starter per instructions in the link you posted once I refrigerate and decant off wort.

 

[IslandLizard]

Thanks again for your help with this. I'll run another starter per instructions in the link you posted once I refrigerate and decant off wort.

The second step should grow much faster and larger, there are plenty of healthy cells now.
Don't forget to save some out after the 2nd step-up, to grow a new starter from for a next batch. And again, and again... It's called yeast ranching.

You can also reuse some of the yeast cake from your batch. About 1/5 to 1/4 of a harvested yeast cake can be re-pitched directly, as long as you keep good sanitation. Yeast keeps on giving.

WY1318 is my go-to yeast for hazy IPAs, although I've been using her for some English style beers too.

For other English style beers I've been using WY1968, but lately been switching to WY1469 (West Yorkshire) which is much more interesting, IMO.
Each strain has her own specific character. 1469 has become my favorite quickly after a couple "British Beer" guys at my brew club got me hooked on her.

 

[HB2112]

The second step should grow much faster and larger, there are plenty of healthy cells now.
Don't forget to save some out after the 2nd step-up, to grow a new starter from for a next batch. And again, and again... It's called yeast ranching.

You can also reuse some of the yeast cake from your batch. About 1/5 to 1/4 of a harvested yeast cake can be re-pitched directly, as long as you keep good sanitation. Yeast keeps on giving.

WY1318 is my go-to yeast for hazy IPAs, although I've been using her for some English style beers too.

For other English style beers I've been using WY1968, but lately been switching to WY1469 (West Yorkshire) which is much more interesting, IMO.
Each strain has her own specific character. 1469 has become my favorite quickly after a couple "British Beer" guys at my brew club got me hooked on her.

Man you weren't kidding. Chilled decanted spent wort and let warm up to room temp. overnight. I made a new starter this morning and the new yeast starter was doing it's deal within a few hours. Not huge foam but better than the last round. I'll save some of this batch and pitch the rest. How long will the amount I save for a future starter last? And thanks again for that link and the info on yeast viability.

 

[IslandLizard]

Good to hear it went well!

Chilled decanted spent wort and let warm up to room temp. overnight.

That's good! To prevent temp shock, you want the (decanted) slurry and the fresh wort to be within 10°F, ideally, when mixing together.

To speed things up, after decanting you can warm up the yeast slurry by placing the flask in a basin or pot with some lukewarm water. Since it's only a relatively small amount, 1-3 oz of slurry or so, it warms up fast, in 10-20 minutes.

If they're fairly close in temp, but still about 20F apart, you can attemper the slurry by adding a few oz of the slightly warmer wort, swirl it up, let sit for 5-10 minutes. Then add a few oz more and swirl up again, let sit for another 5-10 mins, before adding the remainder of the wort.

As long as keep your sanitation in check, you can re-grow that yeast many times. I've some slurries up in their 8th generation.*
I always taste some of the decanted starter beer for any sourness or other (bad) off-flavors. You learn quickly what it should taste like to pass.

* I always make a good size starter from a fresh pack, usually in 2 rounds (Generation-1). Most of that Gen-1 gets stowed away in the fridge (a few 4 oz jelly/mason jars), keeping enough out to make a new pitchable starter from. The result of that gets either used or regrown again, depending on how many 5 gallon batches I plan to use it for in the near future.

After fermentation has completed I sometimes save out some of that cake for new batches too. No starter needed when used within a few weeks.
When I need a new batch of fresh yeast I go back to what's stored in the fridge. And start it all over again.

Lately I've started to freeze some yeast too. Those are very, very small quantities of slurry (2-4 ml), and will keep for many years. They will need to be build up in 3-4 steps. 10ml > 50ml > 250ml >1.5-2.0 liter.

 

[balrog]

Time.
The older my (purchased pack or saved overbuilt) yeast, the longer the starter takes.
I've never had one that did not EVENTUALLY build, and the resulting yeast, when pitched, started well and did fine.
But I've had starters finish in 24 hours, or 5 days.
Patience.

Also, following @IslandLizard 's advice is always a good thing.

 

[HB2112]

Thanks Balrog I learned a lot over the last week. Now onto new adventures. I picked up a couple of used Corny kegs and a CO2 tank with a regulator from craigslist, still has CO2 in it, and a mini fridge setup for a kegerator on market place over the weekend. So the next batch gets kegged.