Just wondering, is a ruined batch inevitable even if you are really careful with sanitation, process, and ingredients? I don't have that many batches under my belt, so it would be interesting to hear other people's experiences with batches they have had to dump.
Is a ruined batch inevitable?
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hunter_le five
Sheriff Underscore
Been brewing for 6 years, haven't dumped a batch yet. No, I don't think it's inevitable.
I've had a few batches that were disappointing, but never ruined.
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I've had a few batches that were disappointing, but never ruined.
Sent from my iPad using Home Brew
An interesting question that I suppose no living soul could answer absolutely - who knows what the future holds? That said, I've been brewing for over ten years and never had anything that looked, smelled or tasted like a dumper.
Still...you'll have to read my epitaph to see if I went 0-for-lifetime on the infection score...
Cheers!
Still...you'll have to read my epitaph to see if I went 0-for-lifetime on the infection score...
Cheers!
Epimetheus
Well-Known Member
not inevitable, just rare. an analogy: very few drivers get to 70 years old without an accident.
It depends on the quality of your beer and your own expectations. Even good batches get dumped sometimes if the brewer can't see themselves drinking much of it.
I dumped a few in my early days (vinegar), but nothing has gone down the drain this century. That is a lot of beer without any infections.
I dumped a few in my early days (vinegar), but nothing has gone down the drain this century. That is a lot of beer without any infections.
I've had to dump a couple out of the of 100 or so batches I've done, but I could always pin it on my own fault. Procedurally did something wrong, did something stupid with a recipe, etc. One was my second batch. Didn't control the temperature on a big beer because at that point I didn't know better. It was undrinkably boozy after a year of aging. Another I didn't pay attention while racking, and ended up with liquid cardboard. And the third I got lazy cleaning my heat sticks and really scorched my wort as a result.
If you pay attention to your process, don't get sloshed on brew day, and stick to proven recipes you may never have to dump anything. Get drunk while brewing, or otherwise rush or don't pay attention, or get lazy about something, or start trying to get creative, you'll have some mistakes along the way.
I've had plenty of subpar batches, but only those three (off the top of my head, at least) that were bad enough to dump. And even then, I was still able to get through a sizeable portion of the batch of each before dumping the rest.
If you pay attention to your process, don't get sloshed on brew day, and stick to proven recipes you may never have to dump anything. Get drunk while brewing, or otherwise rush or don't pay attention, or get lazy about something, or start trying to get creative, you'll have some mistakes along the way.
I've had plenty of subpar batches, but only those three (off the top of my head, at least) that were bad enough to dump. And even then, I was still able to get through a sizeable portion of the batch of each before dumping the rest.
MindenMan
Well-Known Member
I dumped half a batch back when I had just started brewing. I have made some real gushers in the past. When a 12 oz beer overflows two 44oz cups with foam, that's a gusher. I have had no off flavors, well not really noticeable. I just brewed (4 months ago) a Strong Scottish Ale, that I over primed by using bad math. The flavor is great, but patience to de-carb before drinking is required.
estricklin
Well-Known Member
I've dumped a number of batches due to infections, never could figure out how I was getting them, was super frustrating. I mean still though, we're talking just a few in a hundred???
I've never actually screwed a recipe up so bad it was a dumper; though some weren't as good as others.
I like to think if you aren't messing up a little bit here and there, your not brewing enough!
I've never actually screwed a recipe up so bad it was a dumper; though some weren't as good as others.
I like to think if you aren't messing up a little bit here and there, your not brewing enough!
I have dumped several bottles of beer. Have had one infection but that was just a one gallon batch. Typically what happens is that I don't drink a certain beer for a few months and then I forget about it. Age takes its toll and I pour them down the drain.
I think, ultimately, it comes down to how willing you are to drink mediocre or bad beer. I don't think anyone brews good-great beer every single time they brew....... So, the real question is - "are you willing to drink 5 gallons of bad-tolerable beer just so you can say you never dumped a batch?"
For me, the answer is no.
In 17 years, I have had infected batches that absolutely needed to be dumped. However, most of the beer I have dumped has been "drinkable"....... but that is not why I brew beer.
I just dumped 3 gallons of Amber Ale this morning to clear out keg space - It was something I was just playing around with. Had about 12 ounces of amarillo leaf hops..... I hate leaf hops and wanted to get them out of my freezer. So, I tried a massive hop stand/flame out addition with all 12 ounces in an amber ale..... Beer was drinkable - but it was grassy and certainly not a beer I would ever order two of in a bar. So, down the drain, lesson learned. I have 5-6 other very good beers on tap right now. Not a chance I was pouring a pint of this one ahead of those, so it was time to move on.
Everyone brews beers that COULD be dumped. Almost everyone brews something (sooner or later) that SHOULD be dumped........... In my opinion, "dumping beer" has a whole lot more to do with pride and stubborness than it does with the actual quality of the beer. There are a lot of people who refuse to dump beer and will choke it down no matter what. To me, that is not the same thing as "never brewing a beer that needed to be dumped."
If you brew a beer that you would not buy a second one if it was on tap in a bar that had several other choices....... you have a beer that COULD be dumped. Whether you do, or not, is another issue.
For me, the answer is no.
In 17 years, I have had infected batches that absolutely needed to be dumped. However, most of the beer I have dumped has been "drinkable"....... but that is not why I brew beer.
I just dumped 3 gallons of Amber Ale this morning to clear out keg space - It was something I was just playing around with. Had about 12 ounces of amarillo leaf hops..... I hate leaf hops and wanted to get them out of my freezer. So, I tried a massive hop stand/flame out addition with all 12 ounces in an amber ale..... Beer was drinkable - but it was grassy and certainly not a beer I would ever order two of in a bar. So, down the drain, lesson learned. I have 5-6 other very good beers on tap right now. Not a chance I was pouring a pint of this one ahead of those, so it was time to move on.
Everyone brews beers that COULD be dumped. Almost everyone brews something (sooner or later) that SHOULD be dumped........... In my opinion, "dumping beer" has a whole lot more to do with pride and stubborness than it does with the actual quality of the beer. There are a lot of people who refuse to dump beer and will choke it down no matter what. To me, that is not the same thing as "never brewing a beer that needed to be dumped."
If you brew a beer that you would not buy a second one if it was on tap in a bar that had several other choices....... you have a beer that COULD be dumped. Whether you do, or not, is another issue.
If all that makes one feel better, go with it.
But it's bs.
That is all.
Cheers!
But it's bs.
That is all.
Cheers!
dkevinb
Well-Known Member
I'm interpreting this as meaning, "If I make no mistakes will I still ruin a batch of beer?" I think the answer to that is, "No.". Beer isn't going to spontaneously ruin itself. If you sanitize properly, do the mechanics of brewing properly and use good quality ingredients (again, I assume this also means a reasonable recipe) then you're bound to produce drinkable beer.
That doesn't necessarily mean you'll like it. If you love hop bombs and you brew a cream stout that's not a ruined batch just because you don't like it. Just a waste of time and money.
I haven't made a completely undrinkable beer as of yet. However I have dumped a subpar batch here and there because I couldn't bring myself to choke them down. I think about the worst one I have dumped was an American Wheat were I accidently added an entire pound of acidulated malt instead of the couple of oz I was supposed to. I got through maybe 2 pints before I decided it just wasn't worth it.
LandoLincoln
Well-Known Member
No. But if you don't make a batch of something that tastes nasty or at least very disappointing, then you either don't try to push the creative envelope very far or you're really lucky.
KIAKillerXJ
Well-Known Member
Ive had to dump a couple. 2 high fermentation temps with Notty, and were just awful, and 1 super high fermentation when my temp controller went haywire and left the heater on and jumped the beer temp to over 100.
So actually I guess all 3 were high temps haha
So actually I guess all 3 were high temps haha
Calichusetts
Well-Known Member
With good brewing techniques and consistent quality control, you should never have to dump a "ruined" beer. As for sub-par beers...I'm glad I do small batches and have a less than picky wife.
Sometimes, it might be beyond your control.
I felt I was very careful brewing a batch of Chocolate Stout that I intended to give as gifts to friends and family. I even played it safe by using mostly DME and just a pound of steeping grains. All "fresh" according to the LHBS. However, the resulting beer had a pronounced metallic taste, as if I fermented it on a bed of rusty nails.
Other than stainless steel boil kettle, no other metal touched the beer, so I'm quite sure it was not caused by my equipment. My googling of the terms "stout" and "metallic off flavor" suggests that it might have been due to improperly stored grains.
I tried to drink it myself, but decided to dump it all eventually.
I felt I was very careful brewing a batch of Chocolate Stout that I intended to give as gifts to friends and family. I even played it safe by using mostly DME and just a pound of steeping grains. All "fresh" according to the LHBS. However, the resulting beer had a pronounced metallic taste, as if I fermented it on a bed of rusty nails.
Other than stainless steel boil kettle, no other metal touched the beer, so I'm quite sure it was not caused by my equipment. My googling of the terms "stout" and "metallic off flavor" suggests that it might have been due to improperly stored grains.
I tried to drink it myself, but decided to dump it all eventually.
Did it have cocoa nibs? I remember reading something about them messing up beer..
I don't think a ruined batch as being inevitable. I had one batch grow something on top and that was because I decided to ferment in a water bottle carboy. If there is no oxygen after fermentation starts, and there is lots of yeast to work on the wort, then unless you keg or bottles have something left in them you should be golden.
I don't think a ruined batch as being inevitable. I had one batch grow something on top and that was because I decided to ferment in a water bottle carboy. If there is no oxygen after fermentation starts, and there is lots of yeast to work on the wort, then unless you keg or bottles have something left in them you should be golden.
BlueHouseBrewhaus
Well-Known Member
Never had an infection (so far - knock on composite particle board) but I did have one batch that I dumped. Bad combination - uncalibrated thermometer (7° off) and (speaking of nibs) waaayyy too much chocolate nibs for waaayyy too long in secondary. Ended up mashing around 165 and then couldn't get the gravity down and the bitter nibs never mellowed even after 9 months. Well, some time in the bottle started to lower the gravity until I started getting gushers and called it quits. Dumperoo.
Human error is a major contributing factor to bad beer, but it's definitely not the only one. My guess is that there's probably even people out there right now who are drinking beer that is infected and don't even know it. First, some people just do not have the palate or experience to detect infected beers or even "off" beers for that matter. There's nothing wrong with that, but it's kind of like saying that the Sun orbits the Earth because it looks that way in the sky to you. Perception is not always fact. Second, it sometimes takes an infected beer time to develop into something noticeable. If you drink the beer young, you might never notice that it is infected. I had a beer that was like this. I was drinking it for quite a while and it seemed fine. Then after a lengthy aging period in bottles, it had developed a visible infection in the bottle. It simply took time.
So, another vote for inevitability?
I don't know that it is inevitable for 100% of every person to ever brew. But, I think it is pretty obvious that nearly everyone, at some point (if they brew a lot, if they try new things, etc) will eventually brew something that just does not turn out as they had hoped it would. Sometimes mistakes are made, individuals have simply not learned enough about water, or fermentation temperatures, or sanitation, or whatever. Sometimes people just take a chance on oh, ....... a Irish Whiskey Red Ale and it turns out horrible (guess where I got that example
Sometimes folks try brewing a new style - and it is just not their cup of tea. All of these can easily result in the decision to dump a beer. My guess, and maybe I am totally wrong on this, is that if you looked at 20-30-40 of the best craft breweries in the United States and asked them: "Have you ever had to dump a batch of beer?" The answer for most would be yes. If a Russian River or Dogfish Head or Bells or Budweiser (for that matter) or whoever occasionally brews something (even small scale test batches) that needs to get dumped....... why would it seem odd that almost every homebrewer, starting with limited knowledge, and a cobbled together system would need to do the same at some point?
zoonose
Well-Known Member
A better question might be "is infection inevitable?"...
Now, I would say having an infected beer is not inevitable. If a person has good information when they start brewing, has a good process from the beginning and pays attention to detail - you absolutely can brew beer and never have an infection...... at least an infection that is significant enough to force you to dump a beer.
I do think most people run across infection(s) at some point, but I could see how people could avoid it if they were on top of this right from the beginning with good cleaning and sanitation practices.
Personally, most of my "dumpers" were the result of four things:
1.) Water - not knowing the impact of chlorine and very high bicarbonate levels on my beers. Nothing like a harsh/astringent/bandaid flavored IPA...
2.) Yeast Health - not knowing the importance of healthy yeast starters. Thinking that 6 month old pack of yeast is just fine to pitch directly. Not knowing the even greater significance in lagers.
3.) Experimentation - just brewing something that was a bad combination of ingredients.
4.) High Fermentation Temps - Thinking that it is just fine to chill your beer under 80 degrees and set it in a room that is in the mid 70's. Sending fermentation temps into the upper 70's or low 80's.
All of these are issues most homebrewers face - especially in the beginning - because they are TOLD these things are ok and "fine" in their instructions and by many of their LHBS's.
"If your water tastes good it will make good beer" - no, not necessarily
"Just smack the pack and pitch"
"Just keep it under 75" ... usually no mention on ambient vs. beer temps or the value of a lower range.
I dunno, "ruined" covers that, plus pretty much anything else done or not done that screws up what otherwise was destined to be a good batch of beer. I don't think those are inevitable at all.
A bad recipe is a whole 'nuther paradigm, imo...
Cheers!
No. I think inevitable is the wrong choice of words. I would say "preventing a ruined batch through sanitation is not completely evitable." Proper care and sanitation is not a 100% surety that a beer will turn out uninfected. Likewise, a lack of due diligence does not constitute a failed or infected beer. The world is not a two-tone system of absolutes.
As has been said, a lot of it comes down to standards. Every batch that I've dumped I could drink. They were just on the "bad" side or "barely" side of drinkable. I've had commercial beers worse than any of them, in all regards. I've never brewed something so foul that I absolutely could not drink it, and I have had commercial beers that were so foul I could not drink them. When I don't want to subject myself to it and would rather have bottles or a fermenter available for something else, then that's a dumper to me.
I'm skeptical of anyone who says they've never brewed a bad batch. It means either you haven't been brewing long, that you don't brew often enough, or that you're just plain lucky in that something incidental has never happened to you regardless of care. If you've brewed bad beers and never dumped, then it's a matter of differing standards as to dumpworthiness, and that's all.
I'm skeptical of anyone who says they've never brewed a bad batch. It means either you haven't been brewing long, that you don't brew often enough, or that you're just plain lucky in that something incidental has never happened to you regardless of care. If you've brewed bad beers and never dumped, then it's a matter of differing standards as to dumpworthiness, and that's all.
Orthobrewsky
Senior Member
It hurts to hear about people dumping beer. Can't we at least use these things for marinades, beer bread, etc.?
There is some debate about what is ruined. In my early days of brewing, when I wasn't doing some things right, there were some beers I really messed up, so they got used for marinades. It's been a long time since that happened, so I'll say a ruined batch isn't inevitable (I think of the South Park movie when I hear that word).
People have different perspectives on brewing, but I have a variety of tastes so I'll drink it, even if it's not really what I had in mind when I designed the beer. I actually don't feel like it's natural or healthy for me to have my optimal, great tasting preference in food or beer at all times. Certainly, my ancestors didn't live that way, unless they were kings, and I don't know of any who were.
There is some debate about what is ruined. In my early days of brewing, when I wasn't doing some things right, there were some beers I really messed up, so they got used for marinades. It's been a long time since that happened, so I'll say a ruined batch isn't inevitable (I think of the South Park movie when I hear that word).
People have different perspectives on brewing, but I have a variety of tastes so I'll drink it, even if it's not really what I had in mind when I designed the beer. I actually don't feel like it's natural or healthy for me to have my optimal, great tasting preference in food or beer at all times. Certainly, my ancestors didn't live that way, unless they were kings, and I don't know of any who were.
It hurts to hear people forcing down bad beer. You can only brew 'x' amount of batches in a lifetime. Not saying that more brewing more leads to better brewing, but if it did... and you held yourself back, you may have denied the world of one of the greatest recipes ever concocted. Not saying I like to be wasteful, in fact I pride myself in my frugalness. But if I deemed myself a "brewer" (which I don't btw, I am all about personal consumption), I would do it %100. ANd if I was an aspiring brewer, I would dump a few.
way I see it, brewing is like anything else. there is always a potential to screw something up from time to time, but some folks just have the knack for whatever they are doing. welding, for example, can be real easy right off the bat for some people but others might produce good welds only sometimes. I worked with a guy who tried to fail a pipe test so he didn't have to go work on a specific project. although he tried to fail, he passed like it was nothing. other guys I worked with strive & struggled to make great pipe welds. and there were a few who consistently slapped stuff together and bragged about "how good it looks" when anyone with half an eye could see it was crap. I think the same applies to brewing.
AerationStation
Well-Known Member
A beer doesn't have to be completely infected for me to dump it. If a beer doesn't come out the way I want and I dont think I can drink it all/get rid of it to friends it goes down the drain.
I've only dumped one batch ever. That was my very first, back in 2003. It was a brown ale kit beer. I followed the instructions to the T and bottled in Fischer's 650ml flip-top bottles that I had sanitized in my jacuzzi ;-)
The kit had me adding 1/2 a teaspoon, IIRC, of priming sugar to each bottle. I didn't have any bombs, but the resulting beer was very thin and highly overcarbonated.
So, I ended up pouring it all down the drain and thinking that my problem had been that I was just not enough of a mad chemist to ensure 100% sanitation. Fast forward to today, I know that sanitation had nothing to do with the problem because I was far more meticulous that time than I am now. The problem had to do with the fact that no kit will produce a beer with proper mouthfeel unless you use double the amount of malt the kit calls for, along with adding sugar directly to bottles instead of mixing in a bottling bucket. That, and the realisation that kit instructions suck.
I started up again with beer and cider a couple years ago and have been doing a batch or two per week since then. I have taken a completely nonchalant attitude towards it now, and I have produced nearly 100 batches with only one of them having turned out not to my liking (a cider that I ran up to 12% ABV and it just tasted hot). Other than that, things have been going fantastic. My second batch of raspberry wine was far better than my first, due to lessons learned, and it turned out to be better than any commercial example I have ever tasted.
Summa summarum, you don't need to pretend that you are Walter White in terms of sanitation, you don't try to focus on high ABV when making beer and cider, and you don't pay attention to kit instructions.
The kit had me adding 1/2 a teaspoon, IIRC, of priming sugar to each bottle. I didn't have any bombs, but the resulting beer was very thin and highly overcarbonated.
So, I ended up pouring it all down the drain and thinking that my problem had been that I was just not enough of a mad chemist to ensure 100% sanitation. Fast forward to today, I know that sanitation had nothing to do with the problem because I was far more meticulous that time than I am now. The problem had to do with the fact that no kit will produce a beer with proper mouthfeel unless you use double the amount of malt the kit calls for, along with adding sugar directly to bottles instead of mixing in a bottling bucket. That, and the realisation that kit instructions suck.
I started up again with beer and cider a couple years ago and have been doing a batch or two per week since then. I have taken a completely nonchalant attitude towards it now, and I have produced nearly 100 batches with only one of them having turned out not to my liking (a cider that I ran up to 12% ABV and it just tasted hot). Other than that, things have been going fantastic. My second batch of raspberry wine was far better than my first, due to lessons learned, and it turned out to be better than any commercial example I have ever tasted.
Summa summarum, you don't need to pretend that you are Walter White in terms of sanitation, you don't try to focus on high ABV when making beer and cider, and you don't pay attention to kit instructions.
I think this is a lot of it. There is an awful lot that has changed in homebrewing in the past 20 years. One thing that has not changed (as far as I can tell) are the instructions in kits. I totally get the fact that you want to keep it relatively simple ans straightforward for beginning brewers. However, there are some really simple changes that could be made that would dispel a lot of common errors early on and help people make better beer right off the bat. And, none of it needs to be complicated or overwhelming either.
*Instructions often give the appearance that setting your fermenter in a 75 degree room is "fine."
*Instructions/beginner kits often insinuate that you can "Clean and sanitize" in one step.
*It would be easy to let people know that tap water with chlorine/chloramine is going to give you problems..... Just use RO to start. Don't need to go crazy with water chemistry..... but, it would be awfully easy to instruct for some common best practice to avoid a bandaid beer.
There are others too, I am sure, that would be simple things to update.
It reminds me of teachers who make copies of a test for their class when they start, and just keep photo copying the same test for 30 years because it is too much work to update or improve upon the original along the way.
JLeuch
Active Member
I ran in to this discussion trying to find out what exactly is an "infected batch" it seams we brewers have different meanings for infected, off flavored, or just plain gross. Coming from my perspective which not to show off or be an a$$. I went to school for food science and i hold state certifaction in food safety. So to me infected beer/wine is purely unsafe via disease (botulism, ecoli, or any other kind of foodborne bacteria that could cause ou hospitalization) my question was how do you know its infected can you physically see it or do you have to smell and taste the infection. Our nose is usually the best indicator. Other than that if you make bad beer and throw it down the drain that's wired that's the perfect stuff to experiment with and drink a few for notes try to find out what went wrong. No one will ever turn down "hey want to try this nasty beer i made? lol" ask them what you think went wrong!
Well, the "unsafe via disease" thing is pretty much not going to happen. The chemical properties of beer prevent it. Botulism toxin is capable of contaminating wort, and if wort isn't boiled or is allowed to sit in an anaerobic environment long enough without either reboiling or the the addition of yeast, then could potentially carry over (really only applicable with stored wort starters or no-chill brewing), but while scientifically possible there doesn't appear to be an instance of it actually happening, and people have been doing things that would allow it to happen for years without issue.
So I wouldn't worry about that part. And a combination of alcohol and acidity means that nothing else pathogenic would be able to survive. So as far as causing disease, I doubt it. Now, other toxins, heavy metals and other chemicals, that's a different story. But if that stuff's making it in, then the brewer has got bigger problems.
From a brewing perspective, an "infected" batch is any batch where a microorganism (yeast or otherwise) is able to ferment that you don't want. Whether it's a beer spoilage organisim (Brett, Lacto, Pedio, etc), or simply cross-contamination between yeast strains you normally use (say, you accidentally get some Hefeweizen cells into your Pilsner because you didn't clean and sanitize your wine thief between samples).
That's a very easy definition.
The question at hand is what makes a batch "ruined". Is it ruined because it wasn't what you intended? Or is it ruined because it's so bad that you can't drink it? Or somewhere in between?
I have dumped one batch in over 25 years of brewing on and off through the years. I paused a berw session before the boil to run some errands that needed to be done immediately, I believe the trub all settled down to the electric kettle elements and the beer had a noticeable but faint scorched taste, like burnt spaghetti sauce ashtray beer. Certainly could have been consumed, but I figured I would take the aggravation all at once and dump 15 GALLONS down the drain rather than taking it pint by pint.
Motorcyclists say that there are two types of riders... Those that have crashed, and those that will crash.
Basic idea is the longer you ride (or brew), the higher the odds that you'll lay it down (or have a bad batch). Even with good technique in either one, there's enough that is out of our hands that it'll probably happen to most brewers given enough time. As the number of batches approaches infinity, the probability approaches 1.
That said, it's still just probability. Some guys will get more ruined batches than they "should" for their technique, and some will get zero.
Basic idea is the longer you ride (or brew), the higher the odds that you'll lay it down (or have a bad batch). Even with good technique in either one, there's enough that is out of our hands that it'll probably happen to most brewers given enough time. As the number of batches approaches infinity, the probability approaches 1.
That said, it's still just probability. Some guys will get more ruined batches than they "should" for their technique, and some will get zero.
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