Inverted HERMS? (iHerms)

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Seveneer said:
I'm using about a 40 litre mash for a typical brew (but it could be as high as 70 litres) and I wouldn't say I have a particularly fast flow rate. Probably about 5-7 litres per minute.

The beauty of using a small volume water bath is that you can control the temperature of the bath based on the temperature of the wort coming out of it. So, no overshoot. What it says on the PID is the temp of the wort :)

/Phil.
Click to expand...



This is more like a RIMS than a HERMS in some aspects. I should have worded my phrase differently.

"A typical HERMS is not capable of step mashing"

"If you build a hybrid RIMS/HERMS heater your results may vary"

"If you overshoot mash temps, your results may vary"

"If you direct fire your RIMS during the recirc with a 100,000 BTU burner, your results may vary"

Etc...
 
I'm the same most of the time..... especially when I'm drinking. Unfortunately I'm at work currently and they frown on drinking at one's desk ;)

:mug:
 
I guess you could call my system a hybrid of RIMS and HERMS but I consider it a HERMS as the heating element has no contact with the wort.

Interested in your views though.

/Phil.
 
I am getting WAY off the OP topic here.

I say build the IHERMS as I stated before, until it is done no one will know. Build what meets YOUR needs.

Apparently "no chill" brewing doesnt work either :rolleyes:

Brew on.
 
Many of you know, but I use a direct-fired MLT + recirculation. I'd really like to be able to automate the mash temps, though. I think I'd go with a smaller HERMS vessel like Seveneer, but still use the burner to assist with steps. You get the best of both worlds that way. This may be my summer project.
 
To address Denny's iHERMS idea...

I think it should work fine, as long as you can keep the mash liquor moving quick enough to avoid stratification around the coil. I'd also consider using a small separate iHERMS tank to give you more flexibility and avoid the lag required to heat larger volume of water you'd have in your HLT.
 
The Pol said:
HERMS is impossible to step with, in my HERMS experience and through my research on the subject.
Click to expand...

What do you mean impossible? I mash out with my herms, i have done "step-mashes" with my herms. There are two challenges as I see it.

One is that the temp doesn't JUMP up to the next step, as you are adding heat, my heat additions work out to about 1-1.5F a minute. The second is the asymptotic approaching to the target temperature. This can be dealt with by either setting your target temp a degree or two higher than the step target so that you actually reach your target temp, or using differential control on your heat exchanger which will also do the same thing. A PID controlled system would never truely reach the temp assuming you are measuring the herms return side.

If you had sufficient flow you could measure the send side, but that risks overheating the entire mash IMHO as the time for the hot liquid to get through the grain bed will probably result in an overshoot of the temps in the top of the mash-bed(although using PID control for that model would probably avoid this).

So, what's the impossible portion you are refering to exactly?

btw, i think of it as a "ramp-mash" when using a herms, vs a true step-mash when adding boiling water.

Thoughts?
 
np0x said:
What do you mean impossible? I mash out with my herms, i have done "step-mashes" with my herms. There are two challenges as I see it.

One is that the temp doesn't JUMP up to the next step, as you are adding heat, my heat additions work out to about 1-1.5F a minute. The second is the asymptotic approaching to the target temperature. This can be dealt with by either setting your target temp a degree or two higher than the step target so that you actually reach your target temp, or using differential control on your heat exchanger which will also do the same thing. A PID controlled system would never truely reach the temp assuming you are measuring the herms return side.

If you had sufficient flow you could measure the send side, but that risks overheating the entire mash IMHO as the time for the hot liquid to get through the grain bed will probably result in an overshoot of the temps in the top of the mash-bed(although using PID control for that model would probably avoid this).

So, what's the impossible portion you are refering to exactly?

btw, i think of it as a "ramp-mash" when using a herms, vs a true step-mash when adding boiling water.

Thoughts?
Click to expand...

This has already been covered in this thread, but here it is again.

This is why it generally doesnt work for step mashing. This has been discussed in this thread. If you brew a recipe that calls for a step mash, 1.5F/min. is not a step, you are right, that is a ramp and will create a MUCH different conversion profile than a true step mash. You will have a very dry beer because of the slow temp rise through the alpha and beta temps.

I use mine for mash out too, but this is completely different. Conversion is complete at that point, I made this point already in this thread. If it takes you 20 minutes to mash out, so be it. If it takes you that long to step up, that WILL change the fermentability of your wort in a way that you are not expecting.

A ramp mash over 20-30 minutes will not make the same beer as a direct step to sacc. rest. It would be tough to get a malty beer with a ramp mash that takes 30 minutes to reach sacc. rest.
 
Lil' Sparky said:
Phil, that's a great setup! Nice webpage, too.
Click to expand...

Thanks:mug:

The web page needs a little updating as I've made a few minor changes to things. Cosmetic changes more than functional but all the same it would be nice to find the time to get it up to date. Trouble is, with all this beer on my hands it's dificult to find the time;)

/Phil.
 
np0x said:
What do you mean impossible? I mash out with my herms, i have done "step-mashes" with my herms. There are two challenges as I see it.

One is that the temp doesn't JUMP up to the next step, as you are adding heat, my heat additions work out to about 1-1.5F a minute. The second is the asymptotic approaching to the target temperature. This can be dealt with by either setting your target temp a degree or two higher than the step target so that you actually reach your target temp, or using differential control on your heat exchanger which will also do the same thing. A PID controlled system would never truely reach the temp assuming you are measuring the herms return side.

If you had sufficient flow you could measure the send side, but that risks overheating the entire mash IMHO as the time for the hot liquid to get through the grain bed will probably result in an overshoot of the temps in the top of the mash-bed(although using PID control for that model would probably avoid this).

So, what's the impossible portion you are refering to exactly?

btw, i think of it as a "ramp-mash" when using a herms, vs a true step-mash when adding boiling water.

Thoughts?
Click to expand...

My brewery operates pretty much as you described only I have a direct fired rims setup. First off, 1-1/2 deg F is not at all a bad rate. Secondly, even true "step" mashes do not instantaneously produce a uniform mash temp. Time is required for the heat to diffuse throughout the mash. Even with stirring, it can take some time. Maybe as much as ten minutes.

I've checked the temp rate increase using plain water and a burner with a strong flame to see what I could expect as a theoretical maximum rate. So, with these ideal conditions I was only able to get about a 2 deg per minute net gain in temps. The test was unrealistic as the flow rate and flame height were both maxed out which I would never do under actual brewing conditions.

I have recently made a couple of upgrades to my system for better temperature monitoring. I have the typical large dial thermometer in the lower side of the MT and a digital thermocouple thermometer monitoring the return temp. I watch the return temp and adjust the burner accordingly and get fast feedback. I also added a vacuum gage tee'd behind the kettle valve to monitor suction head. This lets me know if a stuck or slowed mash is approaching. It's an early warning signal with usually enough time to take evasive action. The digital thermometer is very accurate and very sensitive. It reads 0.1 deg F and provides a continuous read out with a large LCD display. That has become one of my favorite brewing tools.

The somewhat slow temp ramps have not given me any problems. Going from a protein rest at 122 F or so up to 150 F maybe is a 28 deg climb. The first 18 deg of that climb isn't yet in the saccarafication range, so then you only need to move up ten deg in order to reach 150 F. You should be able to get there in under six minutes and even then, you will only be moving through the low end of that 10 degrees in only a few minutes. About as long as it would take dumping in boiling water and allowing the temperature of the mash to equalize.

The bottom line for me is that I'm getting more uniform mash tempertures with a continuously circulating RIMS and I can ramp up at a reasonable rate when desired.

The most recent improvement I made was on the counter flow chilling end of things. I've got high hopes for finally capturing the elusive hop aroma.
 

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