Inverted HERMS? (iHerms)

[Denny's Evil Concoctions]

I don't mind if the topic drifts.

Cat22, do you stir during step ups with your direct fired RIMS?

I used to stir when I did not have a recirculating system and did not scorch. Twice now with a recirculating system and not stirring, I ended up scorching. The first time was a flow problem, I fixed that. The second time I ended up with foaming in the line during heating (foaming seemed worse at higer temps than low) which resulted in cavitation in the pump which slowed down my recirculation and resulted in a slight scorch.

I still think my idea is sound above, but with the cost of a second pump it would probably be better to go to steam.

 

[Catt22]

Denny,

No, I don't stir the mash at all after the initial mash in. The exception would be if I observe the beginnings of a stuck mash or any problem with the recirc flow rate.

I agree that your basic concept is sound, but I don't have any experience with a HERMS at all so my opinion on this isn't worth a whole lot.

I also find using steam an interesting innovation. I'm not sold on waving a steam wand around in the mash though. You still need to stir the mash to distribute the heat evenly. I'm thinking maybe a hybrid design combining a RIMS with steam injection. The idea being that the continuous recirculation would eliminate the need to stir while simultaneously injecting steam for stepping up the temps.

 

[kladue]

FWIW I have been using steam injected into circulating wort for step mashes since 2003 and have come up with a fairly easy to operate system albiet unique. The down side to steam injection into wort is that it requires nearly constant temperature monitoring and adjustment of steam flow, but step time from 130 to 148 takes 11 minutes with a 12 Lb grain bill.

 

[Seveneer]

HERMS is impossible to step with

I'm afraid I have to disagree with this.

HERMS has many benefits, but step mashing never has been one. Id never want to go back to a single infusion cooler MLT system. The HERMS is suitable for a mash out... this is not time sensitive since conversion is complete anyhow IMHO.

If you use a seperate waterbath, rather than the HLT, for your heat exchanger it is absolutely possible to conduct a step mash with a HERMS system.

I have a heat exchanger made from a 12 inch length of 6 inch diameter copper pipe, sealed at one end containing a copper coil to recirculate the wort through. Heat is applied with a 2.4 kw element that I control with a PID controller.

With this setup I can increase my mash from 50C to 66C in 10 minutes. This is because the water bath only holds about 4 litres.

I believe this is quick enough to consider step mashes feasible.

It is still a HERMS as the heat is applied indirectly via a water bath.

Of course, if you install your HERMS coil in your HLT any temperature rises will take a long time due to the amount of water in the HLT. In which case the comments from Pol are correct.

/Phil.

 

[missing link]

I'm afraid I have to disagree with this.



If you use a seperate waterbath, rather than the HLT, for your heat exchanger it is absolutely possible to conduct a step mash with a HERMS system.

I have a heat exchanger made from a 12 inch length of 6 inch diameter copper pipe, sealed at one end containing a copper coil to recirculate the wort through. Heat is applied with a 2.4 kw element that I control with a PID controller.

With this setup I can increase my mash from 50C to 66C in 10 minutes. This is because the water bath only holds about 4 litres.

I believe this is quick enough to consider step mashes feasible.

It is still a HERMS as the heat is applied indirectly via a water bath.

Of course, if you install your HERMS coil in your HLT any temperature rises will take a long time due to the amount of water in the HLT. In which case the comments from Pol are correct.

/Phil.

The same would hold true for a RIMS system with a very large heating element in a HEX. My system uses a 1500 watt element and on a 5 gallon batch I see about 5 degrees increase as it flows through the HEX. Meaning the output is about 5 degrees warmer than the input. This gives me a rise of 1 or 2 degrees per minute. To slow for step mashes.

However, using a 5500 watt element in slightly larger HEX would allow you to reach your step temp at the outlet of the HEX regardless of the input temp. It would only take 10 minutes or so to turn the entire volume of the mash tun over multiple times and bring the grain up to temp.

I don't brew with step mashes so I have not found a need to try to build something like this. In POL's case he already has the PID and power available to make either version work for him.

Linc

 

[The Pol]

FWIW, even if my HLT is at my set point, say 158F... raising my temp in my MLT from 125F to 155F will take MUCH longer than 10 minutes.

In my system it is not the HLT alone that causes such slow heating of the MLT, it is the fact that I am only heating the MLT with 158F water, no overshoot. If my HLT is up to temp prior to starting the recirc. and step up, it helps, but that is only half the battle as I have 6 gallons of thick thermal mass in the MLT that needs to be raised. Changing the temp of a 150F mash with 158F water for example is VERY slow unless you have an incredible flow rate. My rate is about 1.5 gal/min

I am impressed that you can reach those temps so quickly, while not overshooting on your HERMS output temp. Good for you. If I chose to overshoot, Id be able to do it much quicker, but that is not something that I desire doing.

I just wrote a complex set of calculations and placed them in an easy to use spreadsheet for myself and all of the builders of my system. It allows you to precisely calculate the temps, times, quantities etc. of water going into and out of the HLT so that you can STEP INFUSE with that water and recirc as well. This allows for instant temp steps, while still allowing the recirc. capability. This way, regardless of mash size, they get a quick step...

The new $3.26 sight gauges were the last step in making this a no brainier operation.

 

[Cape Brewing]

AM I reading things incorrectly or is the real question with all of this aroud people's individual feelings about overshooting on whatever you're usig for your heat exchanger??

What I mean is... it sounds like Pol (and I run my rig the same way) can't really step because of his dislike of heating wort up over his target temp and then adding back into the mash while others don't seem to have a problem with it.

For example... I run a coil through my HLT and then heat the HLT directly to maintain temp in the MT.... I can certainly step up quickly if I jack my HLT up to boiling as opposed to simply raising my HLT to the target temp itself.

... so I guess I'm just tryig to figure out what guys are specifically talking about....

 

[Seveneer]

I'm using about a 40 litre mash for a typical brew (but it could be as high as 70 litres) and I wouldn't say I have a particularly fast flow rate. Probably about 5-7 litres per minute.

The beauty of using a small volume water bath is that you can control the temperature of the bath based on the temperature of the wort coming out of it. So, no overshoot. What it says on the PID is the temp of the wort

/Phil.

 

[Seveneer]

... so I guess I'm just tryig to figure out what guys are specifically talking about....

So, what I'm saying is that I disagree that HERMS can't be used for step mashing because I've done it.

/Phil.

 

[The Pol]

I have no idea what I am talking about....

 

[The Pol]

I'm using about a 40 litre mash for a typical brew (but it could be as high as 70 litres) and I wouldn't say I have a particularly fast flow rate. Probably about 5-7 litres per minute.

The beauty of using a small volume water bath is that you can control the temperature of the bath based on the temperature of the wort coming out of it. So, no overshoot. What it says on the PID is the temp of the wort

/Phil.

This is more like a RIMS than a HERMS in some aspects. I should have worded my phrase differently.

"A typical HERMS is not capable of step mashing"

"If you build a hybrid RIMS/HERMS heater your results may vary"

"If you overshoot mash temps, your results may vary"

"If you direct fire your RIMS during the recirc with a 100,000 BTU burner, your results may vary"

Etc...

 

[Seveneer]

I'm the same most of the time..... especially when I'm drinking. Unfortunately I'm at work currently and they frown on drinking at one's desk

 

[Seveneer]

I guess you could call my system a hybrid of RIMS and HERMS but I consider it a HERMS as the heating element has no contact with the wort.

Interested in your views though.

/Phil.

 

[The Pol]

I am getting WAY off the OP topic here.

I say build the IHERMS as I stated before, until it is done no one will know. Build what meets YOUR needs.

Apparently "no chill" brewing doesnt work either

Brew on.

 

[Lil' Sparky]

Many of you know, but I use a direct-fired MLT + recirculation. I'd really like to be able to automate the mash temps, though. I think I'd go with a smaller HERMS vessel like Seveneer, but still use the burner to assist with steps. You get the best of both worlds that way. This may be my summer project.

 

[Lil' Sparky]

Seveneer - do you have any pics of your setup?

 

[Lil' Sparky]

To address Denny's iHERMS idea...

I think it should work fine, as long as you can keep the mash liquor moving quick enough to avoid stratification around the coil. I'd also consider using a small separate iHERMS tank to give you more flexibility and avoid the lag required to heat larger volume of water you'd have in your HLT.

 

[np0x]

HERMS is impossible to step with, in my HERMS experience and through my research on the subject.

What do you mean impossible? I mash out with my herms, i have done "step-mashes" with my herms. There are two challenges as I see it.

One is that the temp doesn't JUMP up to the next step, as you are adding heat, my heat additions work out to about 1-1.5F a minute. The second is the asymptotic approaching to the target temperature. This can be dealt with by either setting your target temp a degree or two higher than the step target so that you actually reach your target temp, or using differential control on your heat exchanger which will also do the same thing. A PID controlled system would never truely reach the temp assuming you are measuring the herms return side.

If you had sufficient flow you could measure the send side, but that risks overheating the entire mash IMHO as the time for the hot liquid to get through the grain bed will probably result in an overshoot of the temps in the top of the mash-bed(although using PID control for that model would probably avoid this).

So, what's the impossible portion you are refering to exactly?

btw, i think of it as a "ramp-mash" when using a herms, vs a true step-mash when adding boiling water.

Thoughts?

 

[The Pol]

What do you mean impossible? I mash out with my herms, i have done "step-mashes" with my herms. There are two challenges as I see it.

One is that the temp doesn't JUMP up to the next step, as you are adding heat, my heat additions work out to about 1-1.5F a minute. The second is the asymptotic approaching to the target temperature. This can be dealt with by either setting your target temp a degree or two higher than the step target so that you actually reach your target temp, or using differential control on your heat exchanger which will also do the same thing. A PID controlled system would never truely reach the temp assuming you are measuring the herms return side.

If you had sufficient flow you could measure the send side, but that risks overheating the entire mash IMHO as the time for the hot liquid to get through the grain bed will probably result in an overshoot of the temps in the top of the mash-bed(although using PID control for that model would probably avoid this).

So, what's the impossible portion you are refering to exactly?

btw, i think of it as a "ramp-mash" when using a herms, vs a true step-mash when adding boiling water.

Thoughts?

This has already been covered in this thread, but here it is again.

This is why it generally doesnt work for step mashing. This has been discussed in this thread. If you brew a recipe that calls for a step mash, 1.5F/min. is not a step, you are right, that is a ramp and will create a MUCH different conversion profile than a true step mash. You will have a very dry beer because of the slow temp rise through the alpha and beta temps.

I use mine for mash out too, but this is completely different. Conversion is complete at that point, I made this point already in this thread. If it takes you 20 minutes to mash out, so be it. If it takes you that long to step up, that WILL change the fermentability of your wort in a way that you are not expecting.

A ramp mash over 20-30 minutes will not make the same beer as a direct step to sacc. rest. It would be tough to get a malty beer with a ramp mash that takes 30 minutes to reach sacc. rest.

 

[Seveneer]

Seveneer - do you have any pics of your setup?

Yep

/Phil.

 

[Lil' Sparky]

Phil, that's a great setup! Nice webpage, too.

 

[Seveneer]

Phil, that's a great setup! Nice webpage, too.

Thanks

The web page needs a little updating as I've made a few minor changes to things. Cosmetic changes more than functional but all the same it would be nice to find the time to get it up to date. Trouble is, with all this beer on my hands it's dificult to find the time

/Phil.

 

[Denny's Evil Concoctions]

I'm looking into another bizarre state of the art system. Can't say much now, but it involves a leprechaun, a tread mill, and demons blood.

 

[FlyGuy]

I'm looking into another bizarre state of the art system. Can't say much now, but it involves a leprechaun, a tread mill, and demons blood.

Best of luck trying to find fresh demons blood in Canada.

 

[bradsul]

Best of luck trying to find fresh demons blood in Canada.

You can get it from any of the major suppliers in the US, but they only ship UPS.

 

[Denny's Evil Concoctions]

Having trouble with the demons blood. Really wanted "cheney", but they want $50 million a barrel.

Canaidain supplier tried to sell me "harper" but I said I wanted demons blood not buffoon's blood.

 

[Cape Brewing]

Having trouble with the demons blood. Really wanted "cheney", but they want $50 million a barrel.

Canaidain supplier tried to sell me "harper" but I said I wanted demons blood not buffoon's blood.

Haaaaaaapy birrrrrrrrthday toooooooo youuuuuuuuuu... (in my best Marilyn voice)

 

[Catt22]

What do you mean impossible? I mash out with my herms, i have done "step-mashes" with my herms. There are two challenges as I see it.

One is that the temp doesn't JUMP up to the next step, as you are adding heat, my heat additions work out to about 1-1.5F a minute. The second is the asymptotic approaching to the target temperature. This can be dealt with by either setting your target temp a degree or two higher than the step target so that you actually reach your target temp, or using differential control on your heat exchanger which will also do the same thing. A PID controlled system would never truely reach the temp assuming you are measuring the herms return side.

If you had sufficient flow you could measure the send side, but that risks overheating the entire mash IMHO as the time for the hot liquid to get through the grain bed will probably result in an overshoot of the temps in the top of the mash-bed(although using PID control for that model would probably avoid this).

So, what's the impossible portion you are refering to exactly?

btw, i think of it as a "ramp-mash" when using a herms, vs a true step-mash when adding boiling water.

Thoughts?

My brewery operates pretty much as you described only I have a direct fired rims setup. First off, 1-1/2 deg F is not at all a bad rate. Secondly, even true "step" mashes do not instantaneously produce a uniform mash temp. Time is required for the heat to diffuse throughout the mash. Even with stirring, it can take some time. Maybe as much as ten minutes.

I've checked the temp rate increase using plain water and a burner with a strong flame to see what I could expect as a theoretical maximum rate. So, with these ideal conditions I was only able to get about a 2 deg per minute net gain in temps. The test was unrealistic as the flow rate and flame height were both maxed out which I would never do under actual brewing conditions.

I have recently made a couple of upgrades to my system for better temperature monitoring. I have the typical large dial thermometer in the lower side of the MT and a digital thermocouple thermometer monitoring the return temp. I watch the return temp and adjust the burner accordingly and get fast feedback. I also added a vacuum gage tee'd behind the kettle valve to monitor suction head. This lets me know if a stuck or slowed mash is approaching. It's an early warning signal with usually enough time to take evasive action. The digital thermometer is very accurate and very sensitive. It reads 0.1 deg F and provides a continuous read out with a large LCD display. That has become one of my favorite brewing tools.

The somewhat slow temp ramps have not given me any problems. Going from a protein rest at 122 F or so up to 150 F maybe is a 28 deg climb. The first 18 deg of that climb isn't yet in the saccarafication range, so then you only need to move up ten deg in order to reach 150 F. You should be able to get there in under six minutes and even then, you will only be moving through the low end of that 10 degrees in only a few minutes. About as long as it would take dumping in boiling water and allowing the temperature of the mash to equalize.

The bottom line for me is that I'm getting more uniform mash tempertures with a continuously circulating RIMS and I can ramp up at a reasonable rate when desired.

The most recent improvement I made was on the counter flow chilling end of things. I've got high hopes for finally capturing the elusive hop aroma.