Invert Sugar Disagreement

[TheMadKing]

So I've been making invert sugar for years following the recipe on the AHA website.

https://www.homebrewersassociation.org/beer-food/invert-syrups-making-simple-sugars-complex-beers/
According to this, temperature and color are directly proportional. Basically if you want invert #3 you just heat it to 300F and you're done.

I recently found Ron Pattinsons recipe and many online forum posts about needing to both neutralize the acid and hold it at a temperature for a length of time. Ron says to hold it at 240F for about 3.5 hours to get to invert #3.

I recognize that the boiling temperature of a sugar solution is directly proportional to the water content. So the AHA version seems to just be reducing water and not actually achieving any substantial color change. In fact I made a batch yesterday and I took a color sample every 10 degrees from 250F to 300F and I could barely see any difference between the highest and lowest samples.

So it seems that Ron's description is definitely the way to achieve darker colors, and his method will maintain the water content around 20% so it can actually be poured more easily.

Does anyone know why there's two completely different methods circulating and the chemistry of what's actually happening between the two? I know they both produce invert, but they are drastically different in how they approach color.

I'm pretty sure the AHA version is just driving off water and any color change is coming from caramelization, whereas Ron's method is producing maillard products, but I'm not sure.

It's disappointing that there's such incorrect information published on the AHA website as fact too.

 

[Franktalk]

I'm not an expert, but I have made invert #2 many times. I bring the sugar. water, and acid to 240F and let it simmer between 240 and 250 for about 90 minutes adding a teaspoon of water here and there if the temperature begins to spike past 250. I am happy with the final product. I would guess that it is somewhere around 25 SRM and it tastes carmelly and sweet. It pours slowly and I have to use a rubber spatula to get the last bit out of the jar.

I always thought that if I let it get up to 300 F, it would harden.

 

[Miraculix]

You might want to have a look at the English ale thread where the topic is currently being discussed in parallel. Last ten posts or so....

 

[BrewnWKopperKat]

Looks like around here (link) for the English Pale Ale thread.

One of the AHA article references is in the internet archives. Prefer the earlier captures of the article as some of the later captures include spam links.

 

[TheMadKing]

Looks like around here (link) for the English Pale Ale thread.

One of the AHA article references is in the internet archives. Prefer the earlier captures of the article as some of the later captures include spam links.

Thanks I've found the unholymess article already and know that Ron was a major contributor to that.

It's kinda funny that they cite that as a reference on AHA but don't follow that method at all...

 

[TheMadKing]

You might want to have a look at the English ale thread where the topic is currently being discussed in parallel. Last ten posts or so....

Thanks! Good stuff

Glad I'm not the only one confused haha

Btw, I've been using Turbinado sugar since it's readily available in the organic section of my local store. I like its flavor, and the brand I get has a really interesting licorice flavor. As it heats it gets some umami (soy sauce?) type character that I like

 

[TheMadKing]

I'm not an expert, but I have made invert #2 many times. I bring the sugar. water, and acid to 240F and let it simmer between 240 and 250 for about 90 minutes adding a teaspoon of water here and there if the temperature begins to spike past 250. I am happy with the final product. I would guess that it is somewhere around 25 SRM and it tastes carmelly and sweet. It pours slowly and I have to use a rubber spatula to get the last bit out of the jar.

I always thought that if I let it get up to 300 F, it would harden.

I've made it many times as well, and it doesn't harden unless it gets above 310F. But it's not exactly a liquid either.

To use it in my beers I have to heat it in a boiling water bath for 30 minutes or so, and then I dump it in and then refill the jar with hot wort to dissolve the rest and dump it back in.

Keeping the water content higher is definitely appealing

 

[BrewnWKopperKat]

It's kinda funny that they cite that as a reference on AHA but don't follow that method at all...

Without knowing the original source (or published date) for the AHA article (and perhaps it was edited for content since it was published), there's plenty of room for speculation.

When I looked at this around 2016-2017, I ended up being comfortable with the idea that there might be multiple approaches (some easier, some harder) and outcomes (some good enough, some authentic). I haven't read the discussion in the "Pale Ale" topic (mentioned above).

 

[TheMadKing]

Without knowing the original source (or published date) for the AHA article (and perhaps it was edited for content since it was published), there's plenty of room for speculation.

When I looked at this around 2016-2017, I ended up being comfortable with the idea that there might be multiple approaches (some easier, some harder) and outcomes (some good enough, some authentic). I haven't read the discussion in the "Pale Ale" topic (mentioned above).

Agreed, that's kinda where I am as well. All of these methods make invert, it's just a difference in color and potentially flavor.

Whether it's a significant difference would require some extensive testing.

 

[Miraculix]

I've tried lots of ways and the best result I got was from one of the simplest approaches.

No2:
Golden unrefined sugar with a dash of lemon juice and water heated for 30-60 minutes. At the end a little bit of baking soda is added to neutralise the acid. This foams heavily so be extra cautious. Taste test it afterwards, if you taste baking soda, you got too much of it. Then add a little bit lemon juice again. The baking soda addition somehow changes the flavour profile in a positive way. Key seems to be that the addition is happening during the boil. Keep it for a few minutes on the heat afterwards, then it's done.

No3:
Same as the above but replace all or parts of the golden sugar with completely unrefined and untreated dark sugar cane sugar.

All the sugar should come from sugar cane.

It's not highly scientific but it does the job and can be easily done on the side when boiling the wort.

 

[TheMadKing]

Without knowing the original source (or published date) for the AHA article (and perhaps it was edited for content since it was published), there's plenty of room for speculation.

When I looked at this around 2016-2017, I ended up being comfortable with the idea that there might be multiple approaches (some easier, some harder) and outcomes (some good enough, some authentic). I haven't read the discussion in the "Pale Ale" topic (mentioned above).

As to the source and publish date:

This article is an exclusive online extra from the July/August 2016 issue of Zymurgy magazine.

—

By Amahl Turczyn, Zymurgy Associate Editor

References cited

• Jackson, Michael. Michael Jackson’s Beer Companion, Duncan Baird Publishers, 1993.
• http://www.unholymess.com/blog/beer-brewing-info/making-brewers-invert
• Quick & Simple Invert Sugar
• http://www.chefeddy.com/2009/11/invert-sugar/

 

[TheMadKing]

I've tried lots of ways and the best result I got was from one of the simplest approaches.

No2:
Golden unrefined sugar with a dash of lemon juice and water heated for 30-60 minutes. At the end a little bit of baking soda is added to neutralise the acid. This foams heavily so be extra cautious. Taste test it afterwards, if you taste baking soda, you got too much of it. Then add a little bit lemon juice again. The baking soda addition somehow changes the flavour profile in a positive way. Key seems to be that the addition is happening during the boil. Keep it for a few minutes on the heat afterwards, then it's done.

No3:
Same as the above but replace all or parts of the golden sugar with completely unrefined and untreated dark sugar cane sugar.

All the sugar should come from sugar cane.

It's not highly scientific but it does the job and can be easily done on the side when boiling the wort.

When you say "Golden unrefined sugar" is there any more specific name for that product? Or do you have a link to a specific brand you like? (I believe you live somewhere in Germany from past chats, so it probably won't be available here)

That's another thing I keep finding is that between the UK, Europe, and the U.S. sugar products are apparently quite different.

Turbinado is the easiest to find in the U.S. but it varies substantially even between brands. I can buy light to dark Muscavado on Amazon. Demerera is also available for order.

Of these options Turbinado is the closest to "Golden" in actual color

 

[Miraculix]

When you say "Golden unrefined sugar" is there any more specific name for that product? Or do you have a link to a specific brand you like? (I believe you live somewhere in Germany from past chats, so it probably won't be available here)

That's another thing I keep finding is that between the UK, Europe, and the U.S. sugar products are apparently quite different.

Turbinado is the easiest to find in the U.S. but it varies substantially even between brands. I can buy light to dark Muscavado on Amazon. Demerera is also available for order.

Of these options Turbinado is the closest to "Golden" in actual color

That's exactly the problematic point. Let me find a link to the German product I buy....

https://www.alnatura.de/de-de/produ...ker-bio-suessungsmittel/rohrohrzucker-118606/
I think that the correct translation for this particular product would be turbinado sugar. A centrifuge is used to remove the molasses from the sugar but a rest of the molasses stays on the sugar, colouring it light brown or golden.

Demarara looks to be almost the same tbh. It's maybe a turbinado from a specific region?

Dark muscovado is the equivalent to the untreated/unrefined raw cane sugar that I was talking about. It's basically sugar with non of the molasses being removed.

 

[TheMadKing]

That's exactly the problematic point. Let me find a link to the German product I buy....

https://www.alnatura.de/de-de/produ...ker-bio-suessungsmittel/rohrohrzucker-118606/
I think that the correct translation for this particular product would be turbinado sugar. A centrifuge is used to remove the molasses from the sugar but a rest of the molasses stays on the sugar, colouring it light brown or golden.

Demarara looks to be almost the same tbh. It's maybe a turbinado from a specific region?

Dark muscovado is the equivalent to the untreated/unrefined raw cane sugar that I was talking about. It's basically sugar with non of the molasses being removed.

Thanks! that's really helpful

 

[Miraculix]

You're welcome! 80/20 turbinado/dark muscovado with the above method gave me the best invert so far. Almost a red colour with a nice taste. Perfect for everything English.

 

[TheMadKing]

You're welcome! 80/20 turbinado/dark muscovado with the above method gave me the best invert so far. Almost a red colour with a nice taste. Perfect for everything English.

I just tried to make a dark mild using "invert #3" made using the AHA method and it did not add much color at all. It came out a light amber/deep gold color, so I intend to get some real color out of the next batch I make

 

[hotbeer]

Making invert sugars involves a Maillard process that occurs relative to time and temp. The higher the temp, the faster the Maillard process. Also the higher the temp, the more likely you'll blow through the color range of invert you are trying to get.

So I don't think either site is wrong. I don't think the AHA site said you get invert #3 the instant you hit 300°. Their casual instructions seem to indicate that you have to watch it and end the heating at a unspecified time when the darkness desired is about to be achieved.

The only difference is that AHA gives higher temps to use so the Maillard process can happen at a faster rate. Which can make things harder to control for ending them.

 

[TheMadKing]

Making invert sugars involves a Maillard process that occurs relative to time and temp. The higher the temp, the faster the Maillard process. Also the higher the temp, the more likely you'll blow through the color range of invert you are trying to get.

So I don't think either site is wrong. I don't think the AHA site said you get invert #3 the instant you hit 300°. Their casual instructions seem to indicate that you have to watch it and end the heating at a unspecified time when the darkness desired is about to be achieved.

The only difference is that AHA gives higher temps to use so the Maillard process can happen at a faster rate. Which can make things harder to control for ending them.

Just to clarify, making invert sugar just involves heating in the presence of an acid which splits sucrose into glucose and fructose and does not involve Maillard reactions at all.

Achieving a specific color and flavor profiles needed for traditional British brewing involves the Maillard and caramelization processes and only when using unrefined sugars containing amino acids. The temperature affecting the rate of Maillard processes is interesting and I had not thought of that. I bet you could heat syrup to say 290F and hold it there in the oven in sealed containers (there will be no boiling anymore if you hold it at or below the boiling point, which is determined by the water content, so no pressure to worry about) and you could drastically reduce the amount of time needed to hit Invert #3 colors. Then you could add water back to get more of a syrup.

As for the AHA Article, it uses "temperature and coloring" interchangably in this passage:

"Keep the syrup simmering, and as water evaporates, the temperature will ramp up progressively faster over time. Eventually, if you let it cook long enough, it will approach the “hard crack” range of 300–310° F (149–154° C) and reach a deep, reddish, cola-brown hue of roughly 80° L at 310° F (154° C).

Before you get there, at around 300° F (149° C), back the heat off to very low, as you are perilously close to burning the sugar. You may even catch whiffs of burnt sugar towards the upper range. Of course, this is the extreme end of the color scale for the syrup; you can certainly stop the heating process at any point between 236° F and 310° F (113 to 154° C), to tailor the amount of color and flavor desired."

These two sentences certainly imply that temperature and color are equivalent. There is also no mention of holding time in the article at all, so at the very worst its poorly written and misleading.

 

[Agent]

Making invert sugars involves a Maillard process that occurs relative to time and temp. The higher the temp, the faster the Maillard process. Also the higher the temp, the more likely you'll blow through the color range of invert you are trying to get.

I'm open to being completely wrong, but I was under the impression that Belgian candi sugars were heavy on the Maillard reactions and need added nitrogen for such. And that these inverts were heavier on caramelization, granting that there is a mix of both reactions occurring simultaneously.

I tried what seemed like THE invert recipe some years ago and was unimpressed. I've been meaning to revisit making invert, but adding plain sugar is just too easy.

 

[Miraculix]

I'm open to being completely wrong, but I was under the impression that Belgian candi sugars were heavy on the Maillard reactions and need added nitrogen for such. And that these inverts were heavier on caramelization, granting that there is a mix of both reactions occurring simultaneously.

I tried what seemed like THE invert recipe some years ago and was unimpressed. I've been meaning to revisit making invert, but adding plain sugar is just too easy.

That's the real problem here I think, mixing Belgian and British ways of making sugar for brewing. As far as I know, two different approaches. One favours caramelization and maillard reactions for colour and the other one uses molasses for that having the maillard thing going on as a side kick, so to speak.

 

[DuncB]

I would look at this thread re Belgian candi sugar/ syrup. This method worked well for me making Belgian.

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/threads/20-lb-of-sugar-and-a-jar-of-yeast-nutrient.114837/

 

[hotbeer]

Just to clarify, making invert sugar just involves heating in the presence of an acid which splits sucrose into glucose and fructose and does not involve Maillard reactions at all.

Achieving a specific color and flavor profiles needed for traditional British brewing involves the Maillard and caramelization processes and only when using unrefined sugars containing amino acids. The temperature affecting the rate of Maillard processes is interesting and I had not thought of that. I bet you could heat syrup to say 290F and hold it there in the oven in sealed containers (there will be no boiling anymore if you hold it at or below the boiling point, which is determined by the water content, so no pressure to worry about) and you could drastically reduce the amount of time needed to hit Invert #3 colors. Then you could add water back to get more of a syrup.

As for the AHA Article, it uses "temperature and coloring" interchangably in this passage:

"Keep the syrup simmering, and as water evaporates, the temperature will ramp up progressively faster over time. Eventually, if you let it cook long enough, it will approach the “hard crack” range of 300–310° F (149–154° C) and reach a deep, reddish, cola-brown hue of roughly 80° L at 310° F (154° C).

Before you get there, at around 300° F (149° C), back the heat off to very low, as you are perilously close to burning the sugar. You may even catch whiffs of burnt sugar towards the upper range. Of course, this is the extreme end of the color scale for the syrup; you can certainly stop the heating process at any point between 236° F and 310° F (113 to 154° C), to tailor the amount of color and flavor desired."

These two sentences certainly imply that temperature and color are equivalent. There is also no mention of holding time in the article at all, so at the very worst its poorly written and misleading.

While I can see how you might read it that way, I didn't. And having some decent amount of cooking experience behind me and reading recipes that have been written for other stuff along with the different ways various cooking processes are described, I feel that your interpretation is more as if you were expecting this to be a more scientific or engineering description of the process.

It's generally known in the cooking world that the browning or Maillard process of anything takes place faster at higher temperatures and slower at lower temperatures. I only felt that the AHA article suggested the higher temperatures because they didn't want to wait a long period of time. Last time I made invert #3, I used the AHA process, but instead of going to their high temperature for a faster acheivement of that color, I just held the lower and more controllable temperature longer. About 2 to 3 hours I think.

However even at the 300 -310°F that I did my first batch at, it took more than just a couple of minutes to get the sugar browned enough. But using that high heat, as cautioned in the article, it's too easy to go too far with the Maillard process and have burnt sugar.

I will agree that the article is poorly written with specific instructions. Even I had to think about it before I did my first batch. And my first batch did in fact get into the burned territory. But still, it gives enough information to those that have experience with and understand the Maillard process to figure out what they need to do.

And many first time experiences with anything don't always go 100%. So why should it be for this or any other recipe. We learn from the first mistake and try again.

 

[TheMadKing]

While I can see how you might read it that way, I didn't. And having some decent amount of cooking experience behind me and reading recipes that have been written for other stuff along with the different ways various cooking processes are described, I feel that your interpretation is more as if you were expecting this to be a more scientific or engineering description of the process.

It's generally known in the cooking world that the browning or Maillard process of anything takes place faster at higher temperatures and slower at lower temperatures. I only felt that the AHA article suggested the higher temperatures because they didn't want to wait a long period of time. Last time I made invert #3, I used the AHA process, but instead of going to their high temperature for a faster acheivement of that color, I just held the lower and more controllable temperature longer. About 2 to 3 hours I think.

However even at the 300 -310°F that I did my first batch at, it took more than just a couple of minutes to get the sugar browned enough. But using that high heat, as cautioned in the article, it's too easy to go too far with the Maillard process and have burnt sugar.

I will agree that the article is poorly written with specific instructions. Even I had to think about it before I did my first batch. And my first batch did in fact get into the burned territory. But still, it gives enough information to those that have experience with and understand the Maillard process to figure out what they need to do.

And many first time experiences with anything don't always go 100%. So why should it be for this or any other recipe. We learn from the first mistake and try again.

I have a great deal of experience with cooking, baking and have been brewing for over 15 years.

When something says "you can stop the heating process to get the color you want" that very clearly says heat = color. There really isn't another way to read that

Just to make sure I'm not being thick, I sent this article over to my cousin who is a professional cake maker and asked her how she reads that. She agreed also that it plainly says "control temp to control color" as there is no mention of time whatsoever.

I also polled my brewing club via group chat with a multiple choice answer. only 1 out of 8 picked "control color with time " over "control color with temp"

You my friend appear to be in the minority

I'll also add that I have made the AHA recipe following their temp method about 8 times and never had an issue with burning it or anything at all and I've been very happy with the beers I've made using them. The only problem I've ever had was that it didn't contributing as much color as i was hoping to my most recent (and first) dark mild

 

[day_trippr]

I've always consider "candi" and "invert" sugar processes to be unique in their own rights and results...

Cheers!

 

[TheMadKing]

I've always consider "candi" and "invert" sugar processes to be unique in their own rights and results...

Cheers!

I don't think anyone here is arguing they are the same. My original post was entirely about British invert sugars and two conflicting methods for producing them.

Unless you are saying that AHA articles might have been intended to produce candi syrups? I didn't get that from it but I'll check again

 

[day_trippr]

Sorry, I was getting the impression that some posters were conflating the two...

Cheers!

 

[Agent]

Sorry, I was getting the impression that some posters were conflating the two...

Cheers!

Yeah, who was that guy who first said belgian?!?

Anyway, I can't help with the "right" way to make various British inverts, especially since the commercial methods changed by the century or decade. But in coming back to the very first post:

It's disappointing that there's such incorrect information published on the AHA website as fact too.

I'd agree that the AHA recipe was for a predominately caramelized invert. And that Ron's recipe sounds to be mostly Maillard focused. But like many things, it's more about what's right for what you want to do.

 

[TheMadKing]

Yeah, who was that guy who first said belgian?!?

Anyway, I can't help with the "right" way to make various British inverts, especially since the commercial methods changed by the century or decade. But in coming back to the very first post:

I'd agree that the AHA recipe was for a predominately caramelized invert. And that Ron's recipe sounds to be mostly Maillard focused. But like many things, it's more about what's right for what you want to do.

View attachment 834417

That's true enough! Maybe I shouldn't have said "incorrect", but since there isn't actually much color difference between a syrup heated to 250F vs 300F, I think calling invert #1 a syrup heated to 236F and invert #3 a syrup heated to 300F is at the very least misleading since their color is primarily determined by the type of base sugar used.

 

[bobtheUKbrewer2]

At the end a little bit of baking soda is added to neutralise the acid.

why neutralise acid, then add acid - I use 5 gm citric acid, a kilo of sugar, and 200 ml of bottled water.

 

[huckdavidson]

Not sure what, if any, the process differences are between making a candy syrup and making invert syrups but thought this was interesting:

http://ryanbrews.blogspot.com/2012/02/candy-syrup-right-way-hint-weve-been.html
Also, is it possible to use date sugar or are there too many solids?

 

[kevin58]

I have been using Ron Pattinson's method for many years. It's the only way I do it. The only difference I've made in the process is rather than use a sauce pan a candy thermometer and baby sit it on the stove top for 3.5 hours I bought an enameled dutch oven and make it in the oven.

 

[bobtheUKbrewer2]

baby ?

 

[Alan Reginato]

Not sure what, if any, the process differences are between making a candy syrup and making invert syrups but thought this was interesting:

http://ryanbrews.blogspot.com/2012/02/candy-syrup-right-way-hint-weve-been.html
Also, is it possible to use date sugar or are there too many solids?

Except for the acid column, that guy, Ryan, made candy syrup. For that you need a nitrogen source, a higher pH (adding bakin soda or similar) and heat.

To make an inverted syrup is only needed a lower pH (adding acid) and heat.

I tried both and I thought that it's too much work. It's fun, anyway. (My wife disagree, )
Using caramel and crystal malt is easier.

 

[kevin58]

baby ?

baby sit

 

[Miraculix]

Except for the acid column, that guy, Ryan, made candy syrup. For that you need a nitrogen source, a higher pH (adding bakin soda or similar) and heat.

To make an inverted syrup is only needed a lower pH (adding acid) and heat.

I tried both and I thought that it's too much work. It's fun, anyway. (My wife disagree, )
Using caramel and crystal malt is easier.

I thought about combining both. First make a candi syrup according to the "20 lbs of sugar and a jar of yeast nutrient" thread and then invert that candi by adding an acid to bring the pH into inversion teritory. Best of both worlds maybe?

 

[bobtheUKbrewer2]

baby sit

in Uk all one word but I should have guessed ty