A “new” way to produce sweeter cider, perhaps.

[Chalkyt]

I thought it might be worth sharing a bit of interesting information I have stumbled across.

I have posted recently about my poor apple crop and the need to buy in some juice to blend. The juice arrived and after doing the usual SG, pH, TA stuff, I noticed that the Fuji juice nutritional information seemed to be a bit odd (51 g/L sugar out of135 g/L total carbohydrates). The information for the other juices was more normal at twice the ratio (110 g/L sugar out of 130 g/L total carbohydrates. The SG for all juices was "normal" at around 1.050.

Sugar is what we ferment into alcohol and CO2, so 51g/L (25 g of alcohol or 3% ABV) didn’t sound like much sugar, whereas the typical 110g/L sugar should result in something like 6.5%ABV.

So, I sent off a query to the orchard and this is part of the interesting reply…

When we had the testing done for our labels we noticed the large difference between Fuji and the other varieties so we sent a sample to another lab and got the same result!

We did a bit of research and although no-one has looked at this specifically what we have found is:

• The Total Carbohydrates in fuji juice are the same as other juices,
• The sugar on nutritional panels doesn't measure sugar alcohols such as sorbitol, xylitol and mannitol; these are reflected in the Total Carbohydrates,
• Fuji is perceived to be one of the sweeter apples and studies show that higher sorbitol content correlates to higher perceived sweetness more than a higher total sugar content.
• Brix is a measurement that does include the sugar alcohols

Based on this we theorise that the fuji apple has higher ratio of sorbitol, and this is why:

• the Brix measurement is high (it measures the sugar alcohols as well as the sugar)
• the sugar measurement is low

The total carbohydrates are the same as other apples (the sugar alcohols are in this measurement.

Certainly, a bit of Dr Google research supports the view in that “Sorbitol correlates to sweetness better than other sugars”. Another interesting point about Fuji apples is that they are prone to “watercore” and that “apples with watercore have high levels of the sugar sorbitol in the intercellular space”.

So, I guess the reason for posting this is that it seems if Fuji apples are included in a cider blend, the alcohol produced from the Fuji might be lower than normal, but the non-fermentable sweeteners will be quite high.

Sweet, lower alcohol cider without the need to pasteurise, or something like fully ferment, and bottle with priming sugar for a sweet carbonated cider, etc, etc, perhaps?

Over to anyone who wants to play with this.

Cheers!

 

[Raptor99]

Thanks for sharing this. Fuji apples can help to provide a sweeter cider without backsweetening.

It seems that when we measure Brix/SG to predict our ABV, the presence of sorbitol will throw off our calculations. I wonder how we can get a more accurate ABV prediction when sorbitol is present in the fruit? We can't always send the juice in for analysis.

 

[Chalkyt]

It has been an interesting couple of days. I tried to get some data on Fuji apples and from what I can tell, if their analysis is correct my supplier's apples are lower in fermentable sugars than others. Nevertheless, all the Fuji data that I could find indicates that even if some Fujis have "normal" fermentable sugar levels, they tend to have twice as much sorbitol as other apples. This a major influence in perceived sweetness.

I have now started the batches of "bought juice" with a blend of 40% Pink Ladies, 37% Royal Gala and 23% Fuji for a SG of 1.045. To boost this to 1.050 I made a cryoconcentrated blend of 75% Fiji and 25% Royal Gala. Concentrated down to 25% the Brix was 29 (about SG 1.125). I stopped at concentration 30% with a Brix of 22.5 and SG close to 1.095. It didn't take much of this to get the bought juice blend up to 1.050

The point of all of this is that Fuji in a concentrated form is a way of adding sugars to improve the OG as well as adding non-fermentable sorbitol to increase the FG sweetness. The plan is to use the cryoconcentrate to prime and see if I end up with a somewhat sweet carbonated cider (i.e. the "holy grail") without having to pasteurise to stop fermentation.

Watch this space!

 

[fluketamer]

watching. i make juice ciders exclusively and can get fuji juice. i am hoping i can use this method instead of splenda .

the thought of adding fuji juice to achieve sweetness and carbonation is very appealing obviously.

 

[McMullan]

Why not simply add sorbitol powder?

 

[dmtaylor]

Why not simply add sorbitol powder?

Why not simply use apple juice to make apple cider?

 

[McMullan]

Why not simply use apple juice to make apple cider?

Because the most desirable cider apples might not contain that much and you don’t like a dry cider? Why sorbitol powder is often recommended if you want a sweeter cider? Because it’s easier to ‘dial in’, widely available, cheap and not considered harmful? You’d still be using apple juice.

 

[Chalkyt]

Hmm, a couple of reasons for me.

I didn't know that sorbitol powder existed. I wonder why it hasn't been mentioned in discussions about non-fermentable sweeteners (xylitol, splenda, etc which seem to have undesirable side effects), It might be worth trying but it seems a bit expensive at around $30 USD per kilo on ebay and twice that in $AUD here in Oz.

Also, part of my cider fun is a "hobby" crafting small batches that are something entirely "natural" from my apples rather than mass producing an alcoholic beverage that is like the commercial alcopops.

Still having fun!

 

[McMullan]

Hmm, a couple of reasons for me.

I didn't know that sorbitol powder existed. I wonder why it hasn't been mentioned in discussions about non-fermentable sweeteners (xylitol, splenda, etc which seem to have undesirable side effects), It might be worth trying but it seems a bit expensive at around $30 USD per kilo on ebay and twice that in $AUD here in Oz.

Also, part of my cider fun is a "hobby" crafting small batches that are something entirely "natural" from my apples rather than mass producing an alcoholic beverage that is like the commercial alcopops.

Still having fun!

It’s considered a natural version of xylitol and noted by Lea. Although he warns of its laxative effects, it’s unlikely to be reached sweetening cider.

 

[Chalkyt]

I understand that more than 10g of sorbitol per day is likely to cause laxative effects. I guess that with Fuji apples typically having around 10g of sorbitol per kilogram, you would need to drink something like a gallon of Fuji cider to get around the 10g. Yikes, I imagine there might be a bit more going on than a bit of a belly upset after that session.

Anyhow, I have two identical blend batches going on right now. One with 71B and one with S04. Following the above discussion, I might change plans and split the S04 batch into two. Finish one "normally" (i.e. fully ferment, add sugar to SG1.010, bottle and pasteurise at 1.006), and with the second one add the Fuji/Royal Gala cryoconcentrate (which I think has a sorbitol level of around 20g/L or more). i.e. bring the finished cider up to SG 1.004 for carbonation, bottle and let it run. It will be a bit of a suck-it-and-see.

Might make an interesting comparison.

 

[fluketamer]

got my fuji apple juice .

this stuff isnt cheap.
im going to mix this with a half gallon of motts and m10 ale yeast. and see if it doesnt ferment as dry as the motts alone.

thanks for the idea.

 

[Chalkyt]

Good idea. My "test" batches have been bubbling away for about a week now. Looking forward to doing the same thing. My "controls" for comparison will be S04 fully fermented and 71B fully fermented. If adding my Fuji cryoconcentrate results in sweetness something like 10g/L of sugar (about 1/2 teaspoon in a cup of coffee), then happy days.

It is a bit like Captain Kirk "going where no man has gone before"... well perhaps not quite!

 

[fluketamer]

did you buy the fuji concentrate or make it yourself

also i think i will also try pasteurizing after i saw a city steading video where they do it in a cooler.

right now i have some mead that i have bottled in 16 oz swing tops. back sweetened with honey. i used varying amounts of honey from 1 to 3 tsp.

i also botted some in a PET bottle with 1 tsp of honey. . when that gets rock hard i plan to refirdgerate all of them,.

then when i descide how sweet i like it i will just use that amount next time. obviously pasteurizing would let me store them anywhere not just the fridge.

right now i sweeten cider by fermenting dry back sweetenign and kegging to keep the yeast at check. its delicious but takes up a lot of keg space.


edit i just saw you made the cryoconcentrate

 

[Chalkyt]

Yep, I made the cryoconcentrate using the CJ method... pretty simple, just freeze the juice then let it thaw, dripping into another container until the colour has leached out, just leaving ice. It was 75% Fuji and 25% Royal Gala, just because that is what I had left over.

The colour is the sugars and flavour stuff, the rest is just water (ice). My first sample was 25% of the total and most of the "brown" had leached out. It had a Brix of 29 which translates to a SG of 1.125, so in theory it should have concentrated to about 24g/L sorbitol.

I did let the melt continue for a bit longer and stopped because the Brix started going down so I ended up with 30% of concentrate with Brix 23 or SG around 1.095 for something between 16 and 20g/L sorbitol.

It is clearly a trade-off between concentration and volume of concentrate. I guess that the higher the concentration (less volume), the more effective it will be because the overall volume (cider plus concentrate) will be less per gram of sorbitol added, but I am not sure it will make all that much difference.

 

[fluketamer]

"the CJ method"

is there a video or link to this

EDIT

never mind found it :

 

[Chalkyt]

Cool video (is this a pun?). Sorry, I was being a bit lazy using CJ as shorthand for Claude Jolicoeur. If you have access to his book, Chapter 15.3 "Ice Cider" covers it. My results were similar to his and also the video with the concentrate being bout 1/3 of the original juice.

 

[madscientist451]

Although Fuji juice may be evaluated for having more non fermentable sugars, does that mean it’s going to make a decent hard cider?
A quick google search turned up several commercial examples of 100% Fuji cider. Here’s an excerpt from the web page of one producer:
“On the face of it, you might think this one-note sweet apple is poorly-suited to cider. But there are folks out there who would disagree, citing the variety's juiciness and high sugar level as particular advantages to using it in cider. There are even a few single varietal ciders made entirely of Fuji juice.”
Source:
https://www.saltspringapplecompany.com/fuji

 

[Fixerman]

Lots of good information in The Art & Science of Cider by Thomas J. Chezem. To get a feel for the book, check out his website: pricklycider.com. Go to the site and do a search on sorbitol. You'll find this article: Sorbitol: The Hidden Sweetener which contains this interesting fact on why he adds pear juice when making cider: "Apples also have sorbitol but, pear juice can contain between 2-10 times the amount of sorbitol as an apple." You'll also find some info on Fuji apples if you search for that.

My favorite cider book is the one a couple of you already referenced: The New Cider Maker's Handbook by Claude Jolicoeur. Both of these books have excellent info on apple varieties and which ones are best for cider.

 

[fluketamer]

pears - looking for pear juice today thanks.

i have had problems making perry. yeast doesnt like pure pear juice as much as pure apple jucie imo maybe its the sorbitol. i made a great pear wine with 1 liter of pear and 3 of white grape but i will try 1 liter of pear juice in 3 liters of appple juice. perhaps this will leave residual sweeteness from sorbitol.

 

[Fixerman]

pears - looking for pear juice today thanks.

i have had problems making perry. yeast doesnt like pure pear juice as much as pure apple jucie imo maybe its the sorbitol. i made a great pear wine with 1 liter of pear and 3 of white grape but i will try 1 liter of pear juice in 3 liters of appple juice. perhaps this will leave residual sweeteness from sorbitol.

Would love to hear how that goes. I've only ever worked with apples. I pick and press each fall. Thinking about adding some pears to the mix next year.

 

[fluketamer]

i had a pear tree for at least 40 years. bartletts. bore bushels of fruit. then my neighbor planted roses which got that shrivel leaf fungus thing which i could never get rid of completely and from there it was down hill. before that i had an italian plum tree. that thing bore fruit . omg. ive tried peach and apricots with mixed results. asian pear also was very hardy and bore fruit.

however when i tried to make barltett perry it never really worked. it tasted funky like young mead before nutirents additions were known. i think i could make it better now but 100 percent pear cider (perry) may be an aquired taste. i wonder if commercial perrys cut there pear juice with apple?

if anyone has made perry id love to hear about it. if the sorbitol thng is correct they should have had sweet or at least off dry cider.



edit: wiki has a great article on perry. it appears perry pears like cider apples are not what we know as supermarket pears. or edible pears at any rate. thats why my bartlett perry never worked.

i think you may get aroma from adding some pears to cider but dont go overboard on the edible pears they are not perry pears.

im hoping to get the sorbitol more than anything.

 

[Fixerman]

i had a pear tree for at least 40 years. bartletts. bore bushels of fruit. then my neighbor planted roses which got that shrivel leaf fungus thing which i could never get rid of completely and from there it was down hill. before that i had an italian plum tree. that thing bore fruit . omg. ive tried peach and apricots with mixed results. asian pear also was very hardy and bore fruit.

however when i tried to make barltett perry it never really worked. it tasted funky like young mead before nutirents additions were known. i think i could make it better now but 100 percent pear cider (perry) may be an aquired taste. i wonder if commercial perrys cut there pear juice with apple?

if anyone has made perry id love to hear about it. if the sorbitol thng is correct they should have had sweet or at least off dry cider.



edit: wiki has a great article on perry. it appears perry pears like cider apples are not what we know as supermarket pears. or edible pears at any rate. thats why my bartlett perry never worked.

i think you may get aroma from adding some pears to cider but dont go overboard on the edible pears they are not perry pears.

im hoping to get the sorbitol more than anything.

I've tired commercial perry. It was good, but I like cider better. The ones I tried contained apple cider too, but I don't think they all do.
A shame you lost your Bartlett tree.

 

[fluketamer]

"The ones I tried contained apple cider too"

this is what im suspecting. except prolly in england where they grow a lot of perry pears they prolly have real perry there . also up in the northeast (mass, connecticut) it wouldnt surprise me if they grow perry pears.

from google:
What's the difference between pear cider and perry?

Pear cider can be made with imported pear juice or concentrate and can even include some apple juice. The main difference between perry and pear cider is that pear cider can use juice from edible pear varieties like Conference. "Proper" perry, on the other hand, is made only from proper perry pears.


semantics i guess but we are drinking pear cider prolly not true perry

btw i cant remember where i read it but windfall fruit ( pears and apples) is supposed to make the best cider

 

[Fixerman]

Pear cider can be made with imported pear juice or concentrate and can even include some apple juice. The main difference between perry and pear cider is that pear cider can use juice from edible pear varieties like Conference. "Proper" perry, on the other hand, is made only from proper perry pears.


semantics i guess but we are drinking pear cider prolly not true perry

btw i cant remember where i read it but windfall fruit ( pears and apples) is supposed to make the best cider

Interesting about pear cider vs perry.

I hadn't heard that about windfall fruit but it makes sense; it's generally the ripe apples that fall in the wind. I've also read that apples from old, neglected trees are excellent for cider.

 

[Chalkyt]

My experience with adding pears to cider has been just so-so. Although, I must admit they have been eating type pears.

I have an old grafted beurre bosc/williams tree that occasionally gets swamped with fruit. However, I find that pears are hard to grind and press since you have to get them at the right firmness... too early and there isn't much flavour and too late they squish into mush, so I don't really know how much they contribute.

I made and apple & pear cider last year (60% Fameuse and 10% Ballerina Apples with 30% Beurre Bosc Pears). It is O.K., nice and dry with a slight touch of sweetness. Of course I don't know how much sorbitol the Beurre Bosc have, but I understand that generally pears have at least twice as much as apples. Hence the interest in Fuji sorbitol levels.

I have Thomas Chezem's book. It has some interesting stuff. In particular he is an advocate of fermenting on apple skins, especially red skins because they generally have more tannin than green or yellow skins. I did a single variety comparison last year using Red Delicious and found that adding skins made a superior cider to just using the apples without added skins. We preserved the apples that sacrificed the extra skins... yum, apple pies and tarte tatin, win-win!

 

[Fixerman]

I have Thomas Chezem's book. It has some interesting stuff. In particular he is an advocate of fermenting on apple skins, especially red skins because they generally have more tannin than green or yellow skins. I did a single variety comparison last year using Red Delicious and found that adding skins made a superior cider to just using the apples without added skins. We preserved the apples that sacrificed the extra skins... yum, apple pies and tarte tatin, win-win!

I agree with your take on Chezem's book - some interesting stuff. I was curious about how he adds skins and wondered about that. Your testimonial is very helpful. I might give it a try. Good info on your apple and pear cider, too.

 

[fluketamer]

i get my tannins from black tea. it definately helps. but i have recently started to try fruit teas. i recently made a cherry meleomel ( or i should say tried to make) that used cherry hibiscus and rose hip tea. i love the color and aroma but theres the ever so slight hint of cat piss from the honey not the tea im sure. like every real mead has - lol

i got blueberry tea and will try that next in my blueberry cider instead of black tea.
ilike the idea of the skins tho and may try that also

my previous experience with pear cider like i said was also so- so. but im in it for the sorbitol this time not the pears.

pear juice aquired:

pear apple cider in 3...2...1



i will run it side by side against the fuji juice to see who leaves more residual sweetness if any .

 

[madscientist451]

I have an old grafted beurre bosc/williams tree that occasionally gets swamped with fruit. However, I find that pears are hard to grind and press since you have to get them at the right firmness... too early and there isn't much flavour and too late they squish into mush, so I don't really know how much they contribute.

I also had issues pressing pears, so now, after harvest, I let them ripen, then place them in plastic buckets and freeze them in the chest freezer. For pressing, I take the buckets out a day before, then put the thawed or partially thawed pears in the press whole. I get a pretty clear juice and if not thawed all the way, a higher starting gravity.
This process is shown in a you tube video with Claude Joliceur using apples.
So after all that work, Ive never been too happy with the perry I’ve made and have done several blending trials with cider I have on hand.
The cider with pear beverages are ok, but for me not as good as just starting with really good cider apples.
I have a few real perry pear trees in the ground, but I’ve heard it takes a long time to get any fruit, and am wondering if it’s going to be worth it in the end.

 

[fluketamer]

from the little i have researched re perry in the last few days it seems like its the pears. likely perry pears make all the difference.

 

[Raptor99]

@fluketamer I have made pear wine the past several years from Bartletts. Pear juice, especially from eating pears, isn't very acidic, so I add some acid as well as some tannins. They make a nice wine.

I have also made apple-pear cider, which is delicious! I freeze, thaw, and mash the pears, then add them to a brew bag in my primary bucket along with the apple juice. I add acid as necessary to reach pH around 3.5, and some sacrificial tannins. They get some oak chips in secondary. This has become my favorite cider.

If I could get or grow proper perry pears I would love to try them. But what I can get in bulk where I live is Bartletts, so that is what I use. Like cider, having the proper cider apples/pears makes a huge difference. So when I use grocery store apple juice or eating pears, I make adjustments to make it more like proper cider juice, mainly adding acid and tannins.

 

[Chalkyt]

Thank you everyone for your input. Interest in the sorbitol level of Fuji apples is getting bigger than Ben Hur!

Following is a summary what I know, and an attachment with a bit more detail for those who like to dig into such stuff.

While HBT is my favourite practical, hands-on forum for us amateur cidermakers. I sometimes participate in a google discussion group that often has input from commercial cidermakers as well as Claude Jolicoeur and Andrew Lea. So, I thought it worth putting out there the useful information that I have gathered and share it with everyone, so you can pursue your own agenda.

Getting information about the biochemical makeup of apples is quite difficult. However, Andrew Lea referred me to a paper that has biochemical information for 40 batches of apples. He also replied with comments about the high level of sorbitol in the Fuji apple juice from my supplier (the juice that that started all of this).

Analysis of the biochemical data shows that Fuji apples have twice as much sorbitol as the non-Fuji apples (8g/Kg vs 4g/Kg). One of the findings in the paper (and other research) is that sorbitol is strongly correlated with perceived sweetness of apple juice at 44% correlation compared with total sugars (which also includes sorbitol) at 17% correlation.

So, what does this mean for fluketamer’s cider with added Fuji juice and eventually mine?

If I play around with some admittedly rubbery numbers and assume that g/Kg is the same as g/L, Then I can guess at what might happen. If fluketamer’s 2L of Motts AJ is “normal” and has something like 4g/L of sorbitol, and the 2 litres of Red Jacket Fuji AJ has 8g/L of sorbitol, when they are mixed together the resulting 4 litres of cider should end up with 6g/L of sorbitol i.e. a 50% increase over the Motts alone. Will this make a noticeable difference? … I don’t know but I am keen to find out.

It certainly seems to be uncharted territory and may end up going pear shaped (another pun?) if we put in a lot of effort for no result. But the way I see it, as with fluketamer’s cider if I add 0.5L of my cryoconcentrate (say, 16g/L sorbitol) to a litre of my cider (4g/L sorbitol) that is currently fermenting, I should end up with 8g/L sorbitol, plus a bit of unfermented sugar. If the other sugar ferments out, it still should end up at 8g/L sorbitol, i.e. twice as much as the original cider. How sweet will that be?

As before… we should find out in a few weeks. Watch this space!

 

[Fixerman]

What a terrific report! Thank you for sharing. It surprises me that Fujis seem receive little mention in the various cider books.

 

[Chalkyt]

Yes, I wondered about the same thing. One of Andrew Lea's early observations about Fuji as a "miracle apple" was "It would be lovely if it were true but I really don’t believe it is. For one thing I think we would know it already!"

Nevertheless, my "Engineering Brain" can't see any reason why Fuji wouldn't work to add sweetness as we hope. Anyhow we will find out soon enough.

Following on from madscientist451's earlier post, I was doing a "road trip" around Tasmania a couple of years ago and recalled that a few of the cidermakers that I called into included Fuji in their blends, so I will follow this up. In particular, Willie Smith's Traditional Cider was what prompted me to include Fuji in this year's blend.... so really, they are responsible for all this fuss!

 

[fluketamer]

yeah i have been thinking baout this and realized theres no way that this hasnt been done before and also that this prolly wont work otherwise everyone would already know about using fuji juice or pear juice in cider to add sorbitol. i have never found a subject in homberewing that hasnt already been covered somewhat on hbt. lo and behold there are a few threads re pear juice and sorbitol in ciders. from the few threads i have researched it doesnt appear that pear juice is the miracle that cider makers have been lookign for. i suspect the same with fuji juice.

in addition the juice i got says fuji apples and regular apples but it doenst give percentages. hopefully theres a decent amount of fuji apples in my fuji juice.

the fuji juice does taste different than the motts. its not sweeter per se but it does have that wierd artificail sweetner hint to it.

 

[Barzahl]

in addition the juice i got says fuji apples and regular apples but it doenst give percentages. hopefully theres a decent amount of fuji apples in my fuji juice.

In the US ingredients on food labels are listed according to volume so if it just says "Fuji apple juice, apple juice" you should have at least half fuji

 

[fluketamer]

quick update

the fuji/motts 50/50 mix fermented drier than the mots with pear juice. i think theres more sorbitol in the pears.
the fuji motts mixed fermented down to .998 not much different than straight motts . but it doesnt taste as good as straight motts. it didnt add anythin sweetenss or flavor and i wont be doing it again. i may give it time but its not worth backsweetenign rt now imo.

the motts pear is interesting not just cause its not as dry at 1.004 but because the pear adds a little something thats definately not bad.

the problem is it still needs to be back sweetened so its not what i was hoping for exactly.

it may make a good mock perry after i back sweeten with pear juice but i doubt there will be enough sorbitol in the pear juice to leave residual sweetness and i think im still going to have to pasteurize these ciders. to leave them a little off dry without them exploding.

 

[Fixerman]

Well, it was an interesting experiment. I've never included Fuji's in the mix I pick and press. It sounds like I haven't been missing anything. I am curious about adding some pear juice to the mix. Thanks for reporting back. Much appreciated.

 

[beren]

http://www.cider.org.uk/Dietrich_Sorbitol.pdf

Apple juice has 2.5-7 g/l of sorbitol, while pear juice has 10-25 g/l

 

[fluketamer]

http://www.cider.org.uk/Dietrich_Sorbitol.pdf

Apple juice has 2.5-7 g/l of sorbitol, while pear juice has 10-25 g/l

as evidenced by the fact that the pear juice didnt ferment as dry

 

[Chalkyt]

Thanks for the feedback.

I bottled mine last weekend and split the fully fermented S04 test batch into two (it is 40% Pink Lady, 37% Royal Gala and 23% Fuji). There is just a touch of sweetness, possibly from the Fuji since the FG is 1.000 but it doesn't taste bone-dry, although I have found that effect with S04 in the past).

The "non-Fuji" was primed at bottling to SG1.005 for carbonation. The "Fuji" batch had "Fuji-concentrate" at 1.100 added to bring the batch SG up to1.008 for hopefully the same carbonation. The reason for the extra 3 gravity points was to make a rough provision for the effect of the non-fermentable solids (i.e. sorbitol etc) in the concentrate. The idea of using concentrate was to minimise the diluting effect of just adding juice.

Both batches have monitoring bottles fitted with pressure gauges and so far, are tracking the same at about 0.6 Bar after 3 days. Hopefully they will run out of priming sugar at around 2 Bar (30 psi or so).

I don't expect to taste a big difference since the Fuji concentrate will only increase the fuji component of the blend to 36% and add about 50% to the "native" (i.e. non-Fuji ) sorbitol... maybe not enough to make a big difference. An unexpected restriction in how much concentrate to add was that as well as concentrated sorbitol, the Fuji concentrate will also have concentrated fermentable sugar so the inherent residual "priming sugar" will generate more alcohol and also affect the amount of priming sugar needed. So I had to take that into account when adding the concentrate... life is full of complications.

On another occasion, I would look at fermenting the Fuji juice separately to consume the fermentable sugars, then freeze concentrate. However, that would involve freezing something with 6% ABV. Would that work?... more complications. Andrew Lea might have a point, if Fuji was a miracle apple we would know it already.

I have read about a Fuji/Pink Lady cider which seems to be a technically interesting combination (low acid/ high sorbitol with high acid/low sorbitol) so will give that a go. I would be looking for a sweetness equivalent to medium-dry (up to 10g/L of sugar). My current "Fuji" batch will only have about 6g/L of sorbitol which would be in the ballpark except that sorbitol sweetness is only 60% that of sugar, although it is supposed to have a bigger effect on the perception of sweetness. Maybe it would be easier to just make a straight Fuji cider although the Pink Lady probably adds some "character"!

Continue to watch this space. It has indeed been an interesting exercise.