Interesting observation with split batch with WB-06

[DVCNick]

I made a 10 gallon batch of my normal simple wheat beer recipe on Friday, and did something a little different with the yeast. It is a WB-06 dry pack.
One carboy was dosed with a 1.5L starter's worth of liquid yeast, and also was oxygenated. I used a small amount from the dry pack to make the starter.
The other carboy was not oxygenated and I used the rest of the dry pack direct pitched (at least 90% of the pack)

Both appear to be chugging along fine, and the liquid one got going quicker (as expected) However, once both hit full tilt, the later one with the dry pack is noticeably more visually active. More churning and bigger krausen.

Any ideas why that might be? Temp and every other variable I can think of should be identical between both.

 

[Tobor_8thMan]

Perhaps more active yeast cells in the WB-06 vs the liquid yeast?

Dates on the dry vs liquid yeasts? Perhaps, the liquid yeast was old and not as many viable yeast cells (even with a 1.5L starter)?

 

[DVCNick]

Sorry I guess I didn't explain well... both are from the same dry pack of WB-06. I used a very small amount from the pack to make the liquid starter. I pitched a crashed and decanted 1.5L starter in one carboy, and the other ~95% of of the dry pack in the other.

 

[Tobor_8thMan]

5% dry yeast for the starter? In what amount? The whole 1.5L? Perhaps stressed the yeast?

Was the starter at full krauzen when pitched? How long was the starter spinning on the stir plate before pitching?

 

[DVCNick]

Correct, a small amount from the dry pack into the 1.5L starter.
I don't have a stir plate; I just swish it around every once in a while.
Starter was definitely on the down slope (mostly fermented out) then crashed for about 24 hours, decanted, and the slurry is what was pitched.

 

[Tobor_8thMan]

With only 5% of the dry yeast in the 1.5L starter I do wonder if most of the yeast were stressed and died?

How many grams is 5% of the WB-06 pack?

 

[DVCNick]

It's not an exact measurement, just a guess, but somewhere around .5 to 1 gram assuming the package marking of 11.5g if correct.

 

[Tobor_8thMan]

For 1.5L (0.4 gallons) BeerSmith 3 recommends 0.70 grams of dry yeast with 17.35 ml to hydrate the yeast (with optional 0.9 grams GoFerm).

 

[Nubiwan]

Interesting!

What were the final gravities of both? Will there be a discernable difference in the beers?

I am gusseing that, even if you have a differing ABV - you will be hard pressed to tell the difference.

 

[DVCNick]

These are less than a week in so probably another week and a half till I keg them.

The one with the dry packet has remained more visibly active throughout and still is now, though both are past their highest krausen at this time.
I am going to be interested to compare them. I've had very similar versions of this recipe finish anywhere from 1.007 to 1.011 before, and I always chocked it up to differences in exact OG, oxygenation, pitch rate, or temp, whatever... never occurred to me that my liquid starters might be lacking something compared to a dry packet.

 

[DVCNick]

These have now been temperature controlled for a week. I pulled them out of the chamber to let them free rise to ambient last night (currently sitting at 75 as of this morning). The one with the dry pack looks much hazier and almost done.
The other one is now airlock bubbling faster (yeah, I know, but I'm pretty confident both of these are sealed well). Hopefully it will catch up over the next week or so.

The dry pack one "looks" almost ready to keg but out of general principle I'll probably let it sit for about another week.

 

[DVCNick]

Pic

 

[Kenmoron]

Dry yeast manufacturers make sure to package yeast at the top of their viability with plenty of nutrient and sterol stores. These yeasts are basically full from a buffet and ready to reproduce. This is the reason you will hear many claim (even the manufacturers themselves) that you do not need to oxygenate your wort (yeast use oxygen to make sterols prior to reproduction). In your case, your starter likely depleted a lot of nutrients and sterols especially since it wasn't on a stir plate. Generally, as long as you oxygenate your wort prior to pitching the starter this isn't such a bad thing. However, as you can imagine, the yeast in the starter has had a much more stressful ride. In the case of a hefeweizen, this might actually result in more banana? I'm curious of your final results!

 

[troxerX]

Dry yeast manufacturers make sure to package yeast at the top of their viability with plenty of nutrient and sterol stores. These yeasts are basically full from a buffet and ready to reproduce. This is the reason you will hear many claim (even the manufacturers themselves) that you do not need to oxygenate your wort (yeast use oxygen to make sterols prior to reproduction). In your case, your starter likely depleted a lot of nutrients and sterols especially since it wasn't on a stir plate. Generally, as long as you oxygenate your wort prior to pitching the starter this isn't such a bad thing. However, as you can imagine, the yeast in the starter has had a much more stressful ride. In the case of a hefeweizen, this might actually result in more banana? I'm curious of your final results!

DVCNick, Kenmoron, casually I entered a few inputs to another thread touching this same exact subject (Name = Oxigenation and Lag Time) that you might want to check out and provide some input....

 

[Tobor_8thMan]

DVCNick, Kenmoron, casually I entered a few inputs to another thread touching this same exact subject (Name = Oxigenation and Lag Time) that you might want to check out and provide some input....

Instead of making us search, possible to provide a link? Thanks.

 

[Tobor_8thMan]

IDK, reading the newer posts, I still feel the same as I did when I originally posted. We're not comparing the same yeast. This is NOT a valid test, NOT a valid pitch amount, etc.

The yeast in the starter was way under pitched. Probably, but I don't know for certain, most of the starter yeast died.

Instead of writing "Hey, look! I got better results pitching more dried yeast than a starter!!!!" start with the same amount of dry yeast in a proper starter, yes with a stir bar on a stir plate with the appropriate amount of wort, and compare this to the same amount of dry yeast used in wort.

Having done so in the previous paragraph, what are our findings?

 

[DVCNick]

There is nothing I'm "testing" here. I just wanted to ferment 10 gallons of beer.
I'm definitely not an expert on yeast health, but, my pitch rate into the starter was right in line with what was mentioned above, and the starter looked like it did its normal starter thing to me. I don't know what makes a starter "proper".

I had a layer of slurry and pitched it like always. Not sure when it would have died.

 

[DVCNick]

So the one with the dry pack looks absolutely done at 1.5 weeks... going to keg it today. (maybe there is a lesson there).

The other is still bubbling away.

 

[wsmith1625]

So the one with the dry pack looks absolutely done at 1.5 weeks... going to keg it today. (maybe there is a lesson there).

The other is still bubbling away.

Thanks for sharing this and please post the results when you're done. Indeed not a valid test, but definitely something to be learned here. I think Kenmoron had some good feedback on why the dry yeast was so active compared to the starter. Personally I don't use starters yet because most of my brews are session strength, but something to think about for when I get there.

 

[DVCNick]

The first one was at 1.007, one point higher than the calculators predict and about as dry as I get this recipe.

 

[DVCNick]

Kegged the other one today... almost three weeks in; I don't think it is going any lower.

1.011. I've had various batches of this finish at right around 1.007 OR, 1.011... now I know what is different even if I still don't know why.

It will be drinkable, not a dumper, but I like the drier version better.