Interesting German Brewing PDF

[beersk]

I'm gonna be completely honest with you...
I have no idea, because I haven't had to wait.

From what I've been reading, it should dissipate. Just need to have patience. I don't think I used to high of a dose, but maybe it's a sign that my process was solid? I used 1.2g SMB in each the mash and sparge water that was preboiled for 5 minutes. I'm not worried about it.
Not tasting any of the lingering fresh malt flavor though yet, sulfur might be too strong still.

 

[ParanoidAndroid]

I'm sure this has been mentioned before, but in doing a quick search I didn't see anything.

How do you adjust for Na and SO4 in the Brewn Water spreadsheet when adding SMB?

Say you add 1.0 grams of SMB to your water. What is the outcome of that if you have 5 gallons of Distilled water in grams of Na and SO4?

 

[jddevinn]

From what I've been reading, it should dissipate. Just need to have patience. I don't think I used to high of a dose, but maybe it's a sign that my process was solid? I used 1.2g SMB in each the mash and sparge water that was preboiled for 5 minutes. I'm not worried about it.
Not tasting any of the lingering fresh malt flavor though yet, sulfur might be too strong still.

I blew CO2 through the keg that I have on tap a couple times and the sulfur flavor dropped off rapidly! I could only get a couple purges in before I got foam out of the PRV, but they were all that were needed to make a difference. I'll purge it a couple more times before I drink it again.

The second keg I'll see if it dissipates naturally.

 

[jddevinn]

I'm sure this has been mentioned before, but in doing a quick search I didn't see anything.

How do you adjust for Na and SO4 in the Brewn Water spreadsheet when adding SMB?

Say you add 1.0 grams of SMB to your water. What is the outcome of that if you have 5 gallons of Distilled water in grams of Na and SO4?

I added a SMB Dosage for mash and boil in mg/l.

I adjust the Sodium overall finished water profile by adding the terms +24[ppm per 100 mg/ml] x (SMB dosage mash[mg/ml] / 100) + 24[ppm per 100 mg/ml] x (SMB dosage sparge[mg/ml] / 100)

Sulfat overall finished water profile is adjusted by adding the terms (and I'm not 100% sure I'm right here???) +76[ppm per 100 mg/ml] x (SMB dosage mash[mg/ml] / 100) + 76[ppm per 100 mg/ml] x (SMB dosage sparge[mg/ml] / 100)

Next to this I calculate how many grams to add. I fly sparge so I note how much water is in the HLT and dose all of this after I boil post mashout (I boil the strike water and dose in the boil kettle).

The red percentage values are my percent off targets. I use these with a macro to automatically determine doses of minerals. As you can see with the example I am 90% over on Sodium and should have used some RO water (but I didn't )



....Martin mabrungard I hope this screenshot falls under what is OK to share, if not I will remove it. <removed. I'd forgotten that the sheet is locked.

 

[schematix]

....Martin mabrungard I hope this screenshot falls under what is OK to share, if not I will remove it.

Looks like you've discovered a trick to unlock his spreadsheet....

 

[beersk]

Looks like you've discovered a trick to unlock his spreadsheet....

I don't know if he'll be okay with that or not. But I guess if you're one who knows the ins and outs of excel, it wouldn't take much to "unlock" a spreadsheet, no?
I've been wondering lately myself how one would calculate the added SMB dosage using Bru'n water. I've been just adding it and not really factoring it into my water profile. Maybe I need to rethink that...

 

[jddevinn]

Hmm, forgot that the sheet was originally locked

I pulled a fresh copy from email and the target water profiles are not locked. So alternatively you can accomplish the same thing by moving the adjustment so that it subtracts from the target profile and providing yourself a note so that you remember that you did that. The Cations and Anions will not match. To keep yourself from getting confused I would add as a separate entry. So that you have a say Pilsen water profile you would then have a "Pilsen with SMB" profile that subtracts the requirements from the Pilsen.

 

[Magnus314]

Is anyone with a DO meter using speisse or krausen to package?

All the goop in my kegs is gross, and more importantly, killing my total number of clear pints

 

[Iseneye]

Is anyone with a DO meter using speisse or krausen to package?

All the goop in my kegs is gross, and more importantly, killing my total number of clear pints

Yeah my two have taken a long time to come clear due to final fermentation in serving keg. I've been impatient so drawing samples off and my first one came clear in three weeks. I may need to be more patient and just wait for three weeks for everything to drop out before pulling pints.

 

[TexasWine]

Yeah my two have taken a long time to come clear due to final fermentation in serving keg. I've been impatient so drawing samples off and my first one came clear in three weeks. I may need to be more patient and just wait for three weeks for everything to drop out before pulling pints.

That makes me feel better. Thought I might have done something wrong.

 

[Magnus314]

I'll probably krausen the batch I have in fermenters now. make up a 1 gallon batch and pitch 1/2 in each to carbonate and condition.

I was hoping someone with a DO meter would know when the oxygen levels start to go up on a "finished" primary ferment, so I can krausen and package before then.

 

[ParanoidAndroid]

I added a SMB Dosage for mash and boil in mg/l.

I adjust the Sodium overall finished water profile by adding the terms +24[ppm per 100 mg/ml] x (SMB dosage mash[mg/ml] / 100) + 24[ppm per 100 mg/ml] x (SMB dosage sparge[mg/ml] / 100)

Sulfat overall finished water profile is adjusted by adding the terms (and I'm not 100% sure I'm right here???) +76[ppm per 100 mg/ml] x (SMB dosage mash[mg/ml] / 100) + 76[ppm per 100 mg/ml] x (SMB dosage sparge[mg/ml] / 100)

Next to this I calculate how many grams to add. I fly sparge so I note how much water is in the HLT and dose all of this after I boil post mashout (I boil the strike water and dose in the boil kettle).

The red percentage values are my percent off targets. I use these with a macro to automatically determine doses of minerals. As you can see with the example I am 90% over on Sodium and should have used some RO water (but I didn't )



....Martin mabrungard I hope this screenshot falls under what is OK to share, if not I will remove it. <removed. I'd forgotten that the sheet is locked.

I came across a quote on a probrewers forum that referenced a paper AJ did. The paper wasn't available anymore (at least at that link) but the guy stated:

..."but I'd consider adding 30 mg of sodium metabisulfite or 35 mg of potassium metabisulfite per gallon of water in your situation. It would be a lot easier than crushing up a bunch of tablets. Anyway, an A.J. deLange article on chlorine/chloramine (available at http://ajdel.wetnewf.org:81/) claims that those rates will treat the worst-case scenario of 3 mg/L chloramine. It'll also treat 6 mg/L of chlorine. If your water has 3 mg/L chloramine, the treatment will result in 3 mg/L of extra chloride ions and 8 mg/L of extra sulfate ions. If your water has 6 mg/L of chlorine, the treatment will result in 6 mg/L of extra chloride ions and 8 mg/L of extra sulfate ions. Those are pretty small changes. If your water has less chlorine or chloramine, the treatment will result in some sulfur dioxide. Some of it will be driven off in the boil, and some will react with mash compounds to form sulfate ions that will approach the 8 mg/L maximum."

In summary:

@ 30 mg SMB or 35 mg KMB per gallon:
This will treat 3 mg/L Chloramine and 6 mg/L Chlorine

@ these rates, this will produce the following
If water contains Chloramine – 3 mg/L of extra chloride ions and 8 mg/L of extra sulfate
If water contains Chlorine – 6 mg/L of extra chloride ions and 8 mg/L of extra sulfate

Maybe AJ can shed some light to see if he is quoted correctly.

I assume I can ratio that to see how much Chloride and Sulfate I would be adding. What about Sodium now?

Also that example is for treating chlorine/chloramine, so how would that change if you are using RO or Distilled at 100%?

 

[jddevinn]

I came across a quote on a probrewers forum that referenced a paper AJ did. The paper wasn't available anymore (at least at that link) but the guy stated:

..."but I'd consider adding 30 mg of sodium metabisulfite or 35 mg of potassium metabisulfite per gallon of water in your situation. It would be a lot easier than crushing up a bunch of tablets. Anyway, an A.J. deLange article on chlorine/chloramine (available at http://ajdel.wetnewf.org:81/) claims that those rates will treat the worst-case scenario of 3 mg/L chloramine. It'll also treat 6 mg/L of chlorine. If your water has 3 mg/L chloramine, the treatment will result in 3 mg/L of extra chloride ions and 8 mg/L of extra sulfate ions. If your water has 6 mg/L of chlorine, the treatment will result in 6 mg/L of extra chloride ions and 8 mg/L of extra sulfate ions. Those are pretty small changes. If your water has less chlorine or chloramine, the treatment will result in some sulfur dioxide. Some of it will be driven off in the boil, and some will react with mash compounds to form sulfate ions that will approach the 8 mg/L maximum."

In summary:

@ 30 mg SMB or 35 mg KMB per gallon:
This will treat 3 mg/L Chloramine and 6 mg/L Chlorine

@ these rates, this will produce the following
If water contains Chloramine – 3 mg/L of extra chloride ions and 8 mg/L of extra sulfate
If water contains Chlorine – 6 mg/L of extra chloride ions and 8 mg/L of extra sulfate

Maybe AJ can shed some light to see if he is quoted correctly.

I assume I can ratio that to see how much Chloride and Sulfate I would be adding. What about Sodium now?

Also that example is for treating chlorine/chloramine, so how would that change if you are using RO or Distilled at 100%?

In this context the SMB was used to react with oxygen as a oxidation deterrent not for Chlorine/Chloramine reduction. The sulfate and sodium additions that I used were present in the paper being discussed here, and are dependent on the O2 absorption of the process.

 

[ajdelange]

Say you add 1.0 grams of SMB to your water. What is the outcome of that if you have 5 gallons of Distilled water in grams of Na and SO4?

Impossible to determine. Sodium metabite, Na2S2O5 has a molecular weight of 190.1 mg/mmol so if you add 1 gram you will be adding 1000/190.1 = 5.26 mmol. That reacts with 5.26 mmol of water to give 10.5 mmol of bisulfite ion

S2O5-- + H2O --> 2HSO3-

Now if you supply 10.5 mmol of atomic oxygen or another oxidizing agent with water you will get 10.5 mmol of sulfate. If there are no sufficiently strong oxidizing agents around you will get none. Or anywhere in between.

Some bisulfite ions will pick up a proton.

HSO3- + H+ ---> H2SO3 ---> SO2 + H2O

You smell that when making metabite solutions for de-chlorinating. Obviously, that S which escapes as SO2 does not appear as sulfate.

Bisulfite is also well known for its ability to form 'adducts' with aldehydes. In doing this the aldehyde is reduced but the SO3 stays stuck to it (the aduct often precipitates). Clearly any bisulfite that does this will not appear as sulfate.

Thus you can calculate the maximum sulfate that can potentially arise but whether that maxiumum will be approached is another matter entirely.

 

[ajdelange]

..."but I'd consider adding 30 mg of sodium metabisulfite or 35 mg of potassium metabisulfite per gallon of water in your situation. It would be a lot easier than crushing up a bunch of tablets. Anyway, an A.J. deLange article on chlorine/chloramine (available at http://ajdel.wetnewf.org:81/) claims that those rates will treat the worst-case scenario of 3 mg/L chloramine....

The paper wasn't available anymore (at least at that link) but the guy stated:

That address was from when I tried to run a server at home. As do most, my ISP tries to prevent that by blocking Port 80. As is often the case some enterprising guy came up with a scheme where his DNS servers direct anything addressed to you to your IP with :81 appended to the end which your iP doesn't block. The paper is still available at www.wetnewf.org (no port 81).

Things are a little different here but the basic principle is the same. Each mole of metabite contains 2 moles of sulfur in a form that needs 1 mole of oxidizing agent per mole of sulfur to become sulfate.

 

[ParanoidAndroid]

That address was from when I tried to run a server at home. As do most, my ISP tries to prevent that by blocking Port 80. As is often the case some enterprising guy came up with a scheme where his DNS servers direct anything addressed to you to your IP with :81 appended to the end which your iP doesn't block. The paper is still available at www.wetnewf.org (no port 81).

Things are a little different here but the basic principle is the same. Each mole of metabite contains 2 moles of sulfur in a form that needs 1 mole of oxidizing agent per mole of sulfur to become sulfate.

Gotcha, thanks.

I'm going to experiment with a basic IPA this week.

90% 2-Row
5% C60
5% Munich

Simcoe for bittering and Citra/Amarillo for 5/0/whirlpool/keghop

Im looking to used the yeast/dextrose, Brewtan B, and SMB. I'm looking at this schedule for a 3.25 gal BIAB batch (75% Distilled Water/25% Tap):

-Yeast and Dextrose in the full volume (4.6 gallons) for 20 minutes
-SMB @ 50-75 mg/L after the 20 minutes is up (not sure on SMB doseage yet)
-Brewtan B after giving the SMB 5 minutes to do its thing

SMB will just be the mash addition since there is no sparge.

Other additions include Wyeast Nutrient @ 15 minutes, Irish Moss @ 10 minutes, another Brewtan B addition @ 5 or flamout.


Anything wrong with that schedule?

 

[KeyWestBrewing]

Kegged my first LODO attempt yesterday, a malt focused APA. The mash was very aromatic and I have a few tweaks in my process I need to do but it'll still be interesting to see if theres anything different about the finished beer, particularly its shelf life.
Out of curiosity I tried the yeast/dextrose water treatment on a range of styles to see how things would turn out. So far Ive done it on an APA, American Amber, Smoked Robust Porter, American Stout, and a Berliner in the next day or so. All batches other than my first had essentially no mash aroma so results should be interesting. Everything is still a couple weeks from being on tap so we'll see.
Im kind of bogged down for the next month preparing for a Brewfest but once that passes and frees up my pipeline I look forward to actually doing some side by side batches to test this stuff.

 

[schematix]

I'm about 3 weeks since I did my first LoDO and about 2 weeks since I racked to kegs. I've been watching the pressure rise in the kegs every day but over the last few days it dropped so i suspect there is a leak in my spunding fittings. I've got at least 2-2.1 vols given my temp and pressure so not too far off, but i pulled off the spunding valves for now since they never reached the set point any ways.

So i pulled a quick sample to see what the beer was like. I realize it still has a few weeks of lagering to go but the sulfur stench is overwhelming and hasn't changed a bit since i kegged. Starting to worry I might have a dumper on my hands.

Never had anything like this before. Is this a consequence of not using up all of the SMB? I'll let this ride for a few more weeks but if it doesn't clear up what can be done?

 

[beersk]

I'm about 3 weeks since I did my first LoDO and about 2 weeks since I racked to kegs. I've been watching the pressure rise in the kegs every day but over the last few days it dropped so i suspect there is a leak in my spunding fittings. I've got at least 2-2.1 vols given my temp and pressure so not too far off, but i pulled off the spunding valves for now since they never reached the set point any ways.

So i pulled a quick sample to see what the beer was like. I realize it still has a few weeks of lagering to go but the sulfur stench is overwhelming and hasn't changed a bit since i kegged. Starting to worry I might have a dumper on my hands.

Never had anything like this before. Is this a consequence of not using up all of the SMB? I'll let this ride for a few more weeks but if it doesn't clear up what can be done?

From what I've read, it'll age out. I'm in the same boat as you. I have a pilsner that is a sulfur bomb at the moment, although I haven't tried it in a week, so hopefully it's dissipated. It's, likewise, my first low DO beer. Does have much of the fresh lingering grain flavor, but I didn't necessarily expect it since I didn't do the FULL-ON method of all stainless, racking with extract left, spunding, etc. Just wanting to see if I notice any difference in using preboiled water with SMB first. But I do expect to taste a better malt quality and longer shelf life. Jury's still out though...

 

[TheHairyHop]

it definitely sounds like an SMB issue. others have reported degassing to relieve the sulfur flavor. check a few posts back. it sounds like the SMB doses in the PDF are too high for a lot of people

 

[KeyWestBrewing]

Has anyone done any testing on priming kegs instead of spunding? I remember reading the point of spunding was to have the yeast scavenge the oxygen which priming would effectively do too right?
Many people don't have the set up to monitor gravity until it's a couple points out. Plus, with the speed of ale fermentations timing that out around life could be equally difficult. However a lot of people have these carboy cap/racking cane closed system transfer set ups. Seems you could add the priming sugar when you swap the airlock for the racking set up and get all the same benefits with less yeast ending up in the keg. Thoughts?

 

[ajdelange]

I have a pilsner that is a sulfur bomb at the moment, although I haven't tried it in a week, so hopefully it's dissipated.

This is called 'Jungbuket' (often translated as 'beer stench') and is, for the lager strains at least quite normal. The amazing thing about it is that is lingers for weeks and then disappears overnight. That is if everything is normal.

 

[beersk]

Has anyone done any testing on priming kegs instead of spunding? I remember reading the point of spunding was to have the yeast scavenge the oxygen which priming would effectively do too right?
Many people don't have the set up to monitor gravity until it's a couple points out. Plus, with the speed of ale fermentations timing that out around life could be equally difficult. However a lot of people have these carboy cap/racking cane closed system transfer set ups. Seems you could add the priming sugar when you swap the airlock for the racking set up and get all the same benefits with less yeast ending up in the keg. Thoughts?

I think priming was shown to not keep the flavor. I'm sure it helps some, but the sure fire way is to rack with extract left. And, to my understanding, you can monitor the airlock activity until it slows dramatically, say 4-6 days, check the gravity and rack then.

This is called 'Jungbuket' (often translated as 'beer stench') and is, for the lager strains at least quite normal. The amazing thing about it is that is lingers for weeks and then disappears overnight. That is if everything is normal.

Thanks, AJ. And, to be honest, this isn't a lager. It's not a pilsner, I should've specified that. Can't imagine it's an SMB issue. I didn't use that much, only 1.2g in the mash and same amount in sparge water for a 5 gallon batch. It shouldn't be overpowering, but who knows, maybe it's a yeast that doesn't react well with it. It's with Wyeast 1007 yeast fermented at 58F.

 

[enkamania]

I really appreciate you doing this. While I won't be able to do all the recommendations, I can try to do my best at reducing oxygen.

 

[Hermit]

When last I visited this site I was being chastised for suggesting someone with classic HSA off flavors try and reduce their splashing. I was told by several people that HSA is a myth and everyone but me seemed to know that. Now it seems that it is such a problem that I'm screwed before I even start? I gotta give up brewing or coming to this site.

 

[doug293cz]

When last I visited this site I was being chastised for suggesting someone with classic HSA off flavors try and reduce their splashing. I was told by several people that HSA is a myth and everyone but me seemed to know that. Now it seems that it is such a problem that I'm screwed before I even start? I gotta give up brewing or coming to this site.

Understandable. The new information seems to be that the threshold for HSA is so low, that there is little to no discernible difference in oxidation levels between what used to be considered good hot side practice and sloppy hot side practice. To really get a noticeable improvement in oxidation, extraordinary measures are required to control O2 levels. At least that's the claim.

Brew on

 

[beersk]

Understandable. The new information seems to be that the threshold for HSA is so low, that there is little to no discernible difference in oxidation levels between what used to be considered good hot side practice and sloppy hot side practice. To really get a noticeable improvement in oxidation, extraordinary measures are required to control O2 levels. At least that's the claim.

Brew on

That is my understanding as well and it's quite discouraging because not everyone will have the time or ambition for the added equipment and work involved in ridding O2 from the entire process. I've done a couple low DO batches, but my process hasn't been perfect. I'm viewing it more as a natural progression to getting a completely DO-free process. It kinda feels like I'm starting brewing all over again. It's kinda cool. But also you feel that discouragement when learning new things...

 

[rabeb25]

That is my understanding as well and it's quite discouraging because not everyone will have the time or ambition for the added equipment and work involved in ridding O2 from the entire process. I've done a couple low DO batches, but my process hasn't been perfect. I'm viewing it more as a natural progression to getting a completely DO-free process. It kinda feels like I'm starting brewing all over again. It's kinda cool. But also you feel that discouragement when learning new things...

No one said it would be easy..... If it was easy for big breweries to do, wouldn't you think all the breweries would have the flavors? If most big breweries with professionally schooled brewers can't hack it on purposely built high end systems, why is the assumption that it would be easy for the homebrewer with no education and cobbled together equipment? This I don't follow. Everyone complained that I was pontificating, and full of ****. So I give you the answers, and now everyone complains they are too hard to follow. You guys are somethin...

 

[TheHairyHop]

No one said it would be easy..... If it was easy for big breweries to do, wouldn't you think all the breweries would have the flavors? If most big breweries with professionally schooled brewers can't hack it on purposely built high end systems, why is the assumption that it would be easy for the homebrewer with no education and cobbled together equipment? This I don't follow. Everyone complained that I was pontificating, and full of ****. So I give you the answers, and now everyone complains they are too hard to follow. You guys are somethin...

these people have been receptive and are attempting to attain a true LODO process. they were just saying it's frustrating but they're going to take it in baby steps. your posts have really been giving this thread an uncomfortable vibe

 

[KeyWestBrewing]

When last I visited this site I was being chastised for suggesting someone with classic HSA off flavors try and reduce their splashing. I was told by several people that HSA is a myth and everyone but me seemed to know that. Now it seems that it is such a problem that I'm screwed before I even start? I gotta give up brewing or coming to this site.

To be fair theres probably less people on this forum attempting any of this than there is that think its a bunch of BS. Its also worth considering what comes off as opinion vs whats been written in some of the most respected brewing texts to date. Now, the people that have put all this together had a goal in mind with doing all of this and they have a strong opinion they're more than entitled to. Personally whether I achieve 'It' or not doesn't matter to me but I do see a lot of potential in improving the flavor stability of my beer by cutting down oxidation where it isn't needed. At the very least this pdf as a great write up on preventing oxidation that could be helpful to any brewer if applied the right way.