I'm going pro... got any questions?

[jbunton]

Hey guys

Have discussed a bit before but I am in the process of going pro. In the last little while I have entered a purchase agreement at a local micro for all of their current operating brewhouse equiptment as they expand. Also I have been working there whenever possible.

Brewhouse is as follows.
3bbl 3 tank electric brewhouse
3 x 7bbl stainless jacketed conicals
1 x 7bbl jacketed brite tank
Chill and flow pro chiller
And various other things
(I attached a pic of the cellar tanks for your enjoyment)



I am located in Ontario Canada and thought a good way to give back to a site that has helped me so much would be to open a thread to answer any questions you guys have. I also feel this may answer some things I haven't even thought about.

I will keep updating as I go.

 

[jabba11]

Congratulations on taking the next step. I was a professional woodworker fro several years. Before that I had gone to a symposium once where a very famous woodworker was giving a demo. He turned early on and said "who here is just starting to sell their work?". A few of us raised our hands. He said congratulations on making something you love to do.. hard work. I love brewing and have considered opening a taphouse at least several times. I still may do it someday but am already aware of some of the difficulties in making a living out of brewing, even if you brew great beer. It IS great to see the American craft beer industry thriving still as I still see lots of new openings etc (and some closure for sure). Anyway I was winded... Congrats again and good luck.

 

[bmobley07]

Good luck! I am currently in month 4 of our operation at going pro. Something I have really been working on since last April/May and really started to take root in November. We are shooting to be open in May or June, and that is mostly due to the ETA on the federal permitting.

 

[myelo]

Cool, thanks for posting. Good luck.

As for questions ... in the picture, I recognize the plastic buckets for fermenting, but what are those big metal things?

 

[Redtab78]

subbed

 

[MaltMaker]

Good Luck! Don't know about in Canada but in the US there are too many breweries. Brewing and beer are commodities. The hard work is the marketing - try and convince people to drink your beer. What is your target market? How are you going to market your goods? To whom will you be selling? What is your advertising budget? Where are you going to be selling your beer... in a tap room, on store shelves, through a distributor?

These are the things the big guys do so well.

I see so much out-dated craft beer on shelves that it really boggles my mind as to how many of these breweries stay in business. The fact is that many of them don't. They fold as soon as they realize what running a business is really about. It ain't about your mad brewing skillz or your equipment. It's about convincing people to drink your beer, be it crap or not, and to drink lots of it.

Being a small brewery, if you can manage to sell to a select group who'll consistently purchase your beer, then good for you. There are a lot of "large" local markets where word-of-mouth type marketing and a tap-room works... at least for a while.

 

[jbunton]

To answer a few questions above. I am not sure what the big metal thingys are. I will be the first brewery in a large county very close to many other major cities that only have a couple around. The craft beer scene here is just starting to blow up!

 

[day_trippr]

Gotta laugh at the title...

Cheers! (and good luck)

 

[oceanic_brew]

Can you loan me 1.2 million Canadian?

 

[jbunton]

1.2 million... you don't need that much lol. I also wish I had money, it takes a big fortune to make a small fortune brewing!

 

[TexasDroughtBrewery]

Must be nice!

 

[trav77]

Hey guys

Have discussed a bit before but I am in the process of going pro. In the last little while I have entered a purchase agreement at a local micro for all of their current operating brewhouse equiptment as they expand. Also I have been working there whenever possible.

Brewhouse is as follows.
3bbl 3 tank electric brewhouse
3 x 7bbl stainless jacketed conicals
1 x 7bbl jacketed brite tank
Chill and flow pro chiller
And various other things
(I attached a pic of the cellar tanks for your enjoyment)



I am located in Ontario Canada and thought a good way to give back to a site that has helped me so much would be to open a thread to answer any questions you guys have. I also feel this may answer some things I haven't even thought about.

I will keep updating as I go.

Good luck! What city are you opening in? Or is that top-secret?

 

[jbunton]

It's not top secret, however I wont disclose the location until I have my space. I'm working on that, should have my approvals from the county this week!

 

[normonster]

Thanks for sharing man!!! I have some Qs:

1. What is your distribution plan? On premise or 3-Tier?

If 3-Tier, have you talked to any distributors yet? What is their expected margin? Are you going to bottle or sell kegs? Determined your botting system needs yet?

If on-premise, what is your serving plan with only one brite? Are you going to keg? If so, have you decided on what kegging/cleaning system you will use?

2. If you're on-premise, will you serve food? If so, what kind and what type of equipment will you be purchasing for kitchen operations?

3. Are you planning a one-man show or are you going to have some hired help?

4. How many BBL's do you suppose you'll be able to sell in a year through the distribution plan you chose above?

5. What will your maximum storage capacity be for your chosen container type (ie - kegs, bottles, etc)?

6. What is your maximum production capacity over a month's time?

7. Renting space or buying?

8. The big one....do you have a business plan or are ya wingin' it?

This is totally cool man. I hope it all works out for you.

 

[madscientist451]

Some Questions:
Are you going to have your own tasting room? If yes, how many taps?
If no, can you really make any money with a 3 bbl system selling wholesale?
If you have a tasting room will you also sell food?
What is the budget for the project, how much did you come up with and how much are outside investors providing?
How much of cash reserve or line of credit can you tap in to?
What is your expected cash flow in the first 24 months?
What will be your Net Return on Investment in 24 months? 48 months?

 

[Stillraining]

Congrats!

Id' forget about retail store space and sales initially....go door to door personally and visit restaurants with bars and other bars and try to get tap space...especially new ones opening up or ones changing management or reopening after a remodel..If you land a bunch of those you will be killing two birds with one stone.
1) Needed revenue and a reason to make beer
2) Word of mouth market recognition. "Hey do you have such and such on tap....no!.. well you should get it, they sell a ton of it over at Joe's bar...its a awesome beer?"

 

[jbunton]

In response to questions above. I will be doing in house retail and tap room sales initially. We don't necessarily deal with distributors here just the lcbo which I will not bother with initially, down the road for sure. I will try to acquire a few bar/restaurant accounts initially. My batches will be double batches so 700 liters give or take a brew. I plan to keg and serve in my taproom from kegs not brite tank. And last but not lease as far as the exact numbers and finances are concerned, that is my business plan which I have spent hundreds of hours and countless resources on so forgive me for not shelling out all that info.

 

[jbunton]

I will probably have 6 taps on the wall. 2-3 being flagships and the rest seasonals. I will have a walk in cooler. We would serve locally sourced snack options so we avoid becoming a food premise

 

[madscientist451]

as far as the exact numbers and finances are concerned, that is my business plan which I have spent hundreds of hours and countless resources on so forgive me for not shelling out all that info.

That's a reasonable answer, the financial details (problems) are what would keep me from opening a brewery/brewpub. I just don't have the resources to make it happen. If you wan to keep those details private, I respect that.
My 2 cents on your beer choices is that 5-6 taps is not enough these days. You need way more than that to offer something for everyone and to keep people interested.

 

[jbunton]

That's a reasonable answer, the financial details (problems) are what would keep me from opening a brewery/brewpub. I just don't have the resources to make it happen. If you wan to keep those details private, I respect that.
My 2 cents on your beer choices is that 5-6 taps is not enough these days. You need way more than that to offer something for everyone and to keep people interested.

i could understand that, one very small brewery i go to has 9 taps on the wall and only brews one keg at a time. I dont even know how they do it but the beer is good.

I would definitely expand over time, this is just what I plan to start with.
Also like i said keep in mind I will be the only brewery in a very large area so it's not like I have to compete with allot of other brewery's and brewpubs down the road initially.

 

[aeviaanah]

Cool, thanks for posting. Good luck.



As for questions ... in the picture, I recognize the plastic buckets for fermenting, but what are those big metal things?

Lmfao!!

 

[jtratcliff]

One brewery near me partnered with food trucks... The tap room gets different food every day without having to make it themselves, the food trucks have a space to set up where people are likely to want food... Seemed to work.

Eventually, as they got bigger, the brewery open their own pub with a kitchen.

 

[jbunton]

One brewery near me partnered with food trucks... The tap room gets different food every day without having to make it themselves, the food trucks have a space to set up where people are likely to want food... Seemed to work.

Eventually, as they got bigger, the brewery open their own pub with a kitchen.

The brewery I work with has food trucks come in on his beer releases, agreed seems to work really well I figured I could do something similar!

 

[normonster]

... And last but not lease as far as the exact numbers and finances are concerned, that is my business plan which I have spent hundreds of hours and countless resources on so forgive me for not shelling out all that info.

I feel the same way about my business plan, even if it remains a dream.

Cheers jbunton!

 

[jonny24]

Very interested to know where you are... can you hint me a region of ON? Looking forward to hearing some Ontario specific details to starting up a brewery.

6 taps is pretty good to start. Always room to grow. I don't if they still do this but when I was at Refined Fool in Sarnia they had all the local takeout menus there, and the restaurants would deliver free of charge. Food trucks are cool too.

 

[jbunton]

Very interested to know where you are... can you hint me a region of ON? Looking forward to hearing some Ontario specific details to starting up a brewery.

6 taps is pretty good to start. Always room to grow. I don't if they still do this but when I was at Refined Fool in Sarnia they had all the local takeout menus there, and the restaurants would deliver free of charge. Food trucks are cool too.

The menu thing is a good idea! I will be locating about 1/2 hr south of hamilton

 

[trav77]

The menu thing is a good idea! I will be locating about 1/2 hr south of hamilton

Should get good business every Friday the 13th!

 

[bonecitybrewco]

Very interested to know where you are... can you hint me a region of ON? Looking forward to hearing some Ontario specific details to starting up a brewery.

6 taps is pretty good to start. Always room to grow. I don't if they still do this but when I was at Refined Fool in Sarnia they had all the local takeout menus there, and the restaurants would deliver free of charge. Food trucks are cool too.

He keeps using the word county, so clearly it is southern Ontario. Whether that is southwest or southeast is yet to be seen. Only southern Ontarians use "counties".

As an aside, I assume you will be joining the OCB? I'm sure there are a lot of people in the group willing to give you some help if you need it. I look forward to visiting when you do open

 

[jonny24]

I will be the first brewery in a large county very close to many other major cities that only have a couple around. The craft beer scene here is just starting to blow up!

I will be locating about 1/2 hr south of hamilton

Should get good business every Friday the 13th!

Nah... Dover is in Norfolk, and we have three or four breweries.

He keeps using the word county, so clearly it is southern Ontario. Whether that is southwest or southeast is yet to be seen. Only southern Ontarians use "counties".

Didn't know that...

I know pretty well where you are now, but I won't blow it for you But I will for sure be stopping by! living in Norfolk now and moving to Hamilton.

 

[JohnSand]

Good luck, thanks for sharing.
I love to see people willing to start a business.

 

[jbunton]

Ya it's exciting times for sure. I'm pretty sure Johnny24 has a good idea. Now that I'm finally incorporated I can make the big announcement. We are now officially "Concession Road Brewing Company". Exact location within Caledonia, Ontario still TBA. We are Haldimand County's first craft brewery!!!

We have a Facebook page up and running and a website coming soon. I am really trying to create a buzz on this as I am getting a bit of pushback from the county's building department. Everyone else is on board just one guy being difficult to deal with!

 

[Soulshine2]

Hey guys

Have discussed a bit before but I am in the process of going pro. In the last little while I have entered a purchase agreement at a local micro for all of their current operating brewhouse equiptment as they expand. Also I have been working there whenever possible.

Brewhouse is as follows.
3bbl 3 tank electric brewhouse
3 x 7bbl stainless jacketed conicals
1 x 7bbl jacketed brite tank
Chill and flow pro chiller
And various other things
(I attached a pic of the cellar tanks for your enjoyment)



I am located in Ontario Canada and thought a good way to give back to a site that has helped me so much would be to open a thread to answer any questions you guys have. I also feel this may answer some things I haven't even thought about.

I will keep updating as I go.

All I can say is good for you and wish you nothing but the best in making your dreams come true. Cheers to the new endeavour.

 

[Cape Brewing]

My advice is take any advice you get from other pro brewers/breweries with a grain of salt given how different every individual situation is..... and then.. advice from people who have never done it... with large wheelbarrows of salt.

 

[Cape Brewing]

I just posted this to a similar thread....


We started our nano for just under $30k in 399 sq ft and are now in 8,500 sq ft with a 3 bbl system and ten fermenters and then a 15 bbl with four 15s and two 20s



If you are starting a nano for any more than about $50k... you have a massive uphill battle ahead if you and, I believe, are setting yourself up to fail.



The most important data point I can give you is "about a $1,000 of revenue per barrel". That's not profit. That's revenue. If you do whatever calculations you're going to do and you are thinking you're going to produce significantly more revenue than that, you're being way too aggressive. If you think you will produce significantly less than that... you're doing something wrong.



So take that $1,000 of revenue and cut it in half to cover cost-of-goods-sold.



That's $500 before paying yourself, or anyone else, a penny. AND that is before putting a penny into expansion.



Now do a back of the envelope of how many barrels you would have to produce on a nano system to hit your payback period on "$250k" or worse, "$400k".... or the most ridiculous I have ever heard (from a beer blogger).... "you can't start a brewery for less than a million dollars".



For every day you haven't paid off your initial investment, all you're really doing is playing with a REALLY expensive hobby. Yes, you own assets and are building equity in a business but those are only valuable if you're going to sell the business or close down... which... given haven't opened yet... i doubt those are your goals.

 

[jbunton]

My advice is take any advice you get from other pro brewers/breweries with a grain of salt given how different every individual situation is..... and then.. advice from people who have never done it... with large wheelbarrows of salt.

Well the advice I'm getting is from the owner of this system who I've been working for and with. He has created quite a profitable business!

Also I know my profit margins and numbers as I have developed a very detailed business plan. I'm not going into this foolishly or blind and I do have allot of resources available to me in the industry. Your numbers are pretty close to actual numbers I have from his operation.

The Canadian market and craft beer scene is quite a bit different than the US as well. Not trying to downplay any advice youve given but I am not a fool who's rushing into this without proper planning and forthought.

 

[Cape Brewing]

In no way was I implying you were a fool in any way.

That said, I think "business plans", "proper planning" and "forthought" only get you about 30% of the way there as all three of those things, ultimately, are trying to predict the future and... that's impossible.

In my experience, those three things go out the window in about a week.

That's not remotely saying you shouldn't have goals, targets, estimates, and gather all of the information you can get.... that IS all helpful. I just wouldn't put a lot of stock in it.

 

[jbunton]

In no way was I implying you were a fool in any way.

That said, I think "business plans", "proper planning" and "forthought" only get you about 30% of the way there as all three of those things, ultimately, are trying to predict the future and... that's impossible.

In my experience, those three things go out the window in about a week.

That's not remotely saying you shouldn't have goals, targets, estimates, and gather all of the information you can get.... that IS all helpful. I just wouldn't put a lot of stock in it.

Agreed it seems you have to kinda go with the flow in this industry. I do appreciate any advice you have for me though. I really look forward to the challenges ahead...and there are allot of them.
My support network is huge and constantly growing and I look forward to getting out of the planning phase and into the buildout and then the brewing. The next phase is rapidly approaching.

I'm just trying to forge my own path in life and do what's ultimately best for myself and makes me happy

I will have to work very hard and long hours initially until the business is established and I can pay myself a living wage.

I am not overly concerned with the payback on my initial investment in the short term. That's more long term for me.

 

[Cape Brewing]

Everyone needs to do their own thing and what you're embarking on might be the EXACT perfect thing for you.

I think you should rethink the payback period piece though because if it is that long term of a thing, essentially what you're doing is paying $100k so you can make $10k a year (making up numbers).

It's not an irrelevant metric

... as an example. The very profitable business that you bought the equip from.... they may be making a tremendous profit margin and clearing $250k a year in pure profit.... but if it cost them $1.5m to build that business, all if that "profitability" isn't so hot.

 

[OldStone]

In no way was I implying you were a fool in any way.

That said, I think "business plans", "proper planning" and "forthought" only get you about 30% of the way there as all three of those things, ultimately, are trying to predict the future and... that's impossible.

In my experience, those three things go out the window in about a week.

That's not remotely saying you shouldn't have goals, targets, estimates, and gather all of the information you can get.... that IS all helpful. I just wouldn't put a lot of stock in it.

That is spoken from the heart. That is about the most honest sincere thing in the post. When the boots hit the ground and the cash register has to ring all the planning, preparation and forecast go right in the trash can. There isn't a new business owner that isn't overly optimistic about their business. Why wouldn't you be. Sometimes you crush your numbers, sometimes you fall short but you will be the next Nostradamus if you hit them exactly. lol. Best of luck to you!!!

My hope is to take advantage of the new Farm Brewery license in my state. I have spent the last three years growing and studying the hell out of how to professionally grow East Coast hops. The brewery part to me is just a bonus. lol. I love to farm and love to drink beer. What a match made in heaven.

 

[Cape Brewing]

That is spoken from the heart. That is about the most honest sincere thing in the post. When the boots hit the ground and the cash register has to ring all the planning, preparation and forecast go right in the trash can. There isn't a new business owner that isn't overly optimistic about their business. Why wouldn't you be. Sometimes you crush your numbers, sometimes you fall short but you will be the next Nostradamus if you hit them exactly. lol. Best of luck to you!!!

My hope is to take advantage of the new Farm Brewery license in my state. I have spent the last three years growing and studying the hell out of how to professionally grow East Coast hops. The brewery part to me is just a bonus. lol. I love to farm and love to drink beer. What a match made in heaven.

Thank you and you're right. It is spoken from the heart. I'm not trying to piss on anyone's rose bushes. We're not the next Sam Adams but I'm really proud of what we've been able to do and I readily admit a decent chunk of our success has been pure stupid luck.

We've been at for a few years and anything I've posted is information I wish I knew when we started.