Lager yeast question

[redrocker652002]

So, this being my first attempt at using Lager yeast (Lalbrew Diamond) I have a question. In the recipe I used, it showed the initial fermentation to go for three weeks. My airlock has declined to a bubble every few minutes. Now, I am well aware that just because the airlock isn't showing any activity that does not mean anything, but it has only been a week. I will take a gravity reading in the next few days just for the heck of it, but I am curious why one would ferment for 3 weeks when it appears it is going to be done in one? Yeast needs more time to do a cleanup type of thing? Again, first time on this style and first time using this yeast, so I thought I would ask. The recipe was pretty simple, 12lbs of bohemain pils malt and 60 min mash. I came in with an OG of about 1.054 if I remember right and looking for an FG of somewhere in the 1.010 area I think. I don't have the numbers right in front of me. Also, with it being Pils malt and nothing else, what style does this fall into? I don't really care, but since I am typing I thought I would throw it in there as well. LOL. Anyway, as always any input is appreciated.

 

[FloppyKnockers]

After the vigorous fermentation is complete (~1 week), the yeast still have a bit of clean-up to do. Theories and practices vary, but I normally do a 2 week ferm, 2 day D-rest, start lagering (variable times), 2 days with gelatin, keg, and carb.

 

[redrocker652002]

After the vigorous fermentation is complete (~1 week), the yeast still have a bit of clean-up to do. Theories and practices vary, but I normally do a 2 week ferm, 2 day D-rest, start lagering (variable times), 2 days with gelatin, keg, and carb.

Awesome. I knew there had to be a reason, just wasn't sure why. Thank you very much for the quick response and info. I will check the gravity next week then. No need to disturb it now. Let those little guys clean up the mess they made. LOL.

What is your Drest as you call it? I have seen this term before but be damned if I can remember what it means. I can use the search button to check, so just asking cause I am sitting here typing anyway. LOL.

 

[Bassman2003]

How much yeast did you pitch, how long has it been fermenting and what is the gravity reading now?

 

[fourfarthing]

D Rest is a diacytl rest where you do a quick temp raise to help the yeast get energized to clean up diacytl.

Also, on the 'clean up' time, that is the main point of the extended lagering after fermentation.

 

[dmtaylor]

Yeah, the thing with lager yeasts is that they often (not always) tend to produce diacetyl and sulfur, either or both of which usually take about 3-4 weeks to be completely eaten or reabsorbed by the yeast. If you detect no farts or buttered popcorn aromas or flavors, you don't need to wait that long. But if you do, or you're not sure... it might be best just to leave it alone for a while.

 

[whoaru99]

...

What is your Drest as you call it? I have seen this term before but be damned if I can remember what it means. I can use the search button to check, so just asking cause I am sitting here typing anyway. LOL.

As mentioned, diacetyl rest is raising the temperature and bit of a dwell time as the end of fermentation draws near.

Example, I have a maibock bubbling away at 50F. When the time is about right I will raise the ferm chamber temp to 65 then let the beer come up to that.

 

[FloppyKnockers]

^^^ What these guys said.

 

[redrocker652002]

How much yeast did you pitch, how long has it been fermenting and what is the gravity reading now?

I pitched two packets as directed by the recipe I found. I have been fermenting at about 55 degrees, also based on recommendations and what the strain limits were I picked a somewhat middle of the road temp. I have not checked gravity as of yet, no need to disturb the little guys yet, it has only been a week.

 

[Bassman2003]

Good job. Should be enough yeast.

 

[redrocker652002]

Yeah, the thing with lager yeasts is that they often (not always) tend to produce diacetyl and sulfur, either or both of which usually take about 3-4 weeks to be completely eaten or reabsorbed by the yeast. If you detect no farts or buttered popcorn aromas or flavors, you don't need to wait that long. But if you do, or you're not sure... it might be best just to leave it alone for a while.

Funny you should mention the sulphur smell. I opened the fermenting fridge today and gave it a quick sniff and thought I smelled a hint of rotten egg. I thought I was losing, but I guess I am not. Thank you for that info. So, giving this new info, I am in for at least a 3 week fermentation if not more? I am ok with it, but I was hoping to free up the fridge in a week or two to get another batch going. Can I take the bucket out of the fridge at say two weeks and just leave it at room temp to finish up?

 

[dmtaylor]

I was hoping to free up the fridge in a week or two to get another batch going. Can I take the bucket out of the fridge at say two weeks and just leave it at room temp to finish up?

You certainly can take the fermenter out of the fridge soon or even now. In fact the yeast will clean things up a little faster at warm temperatures than if left cool. No problem at all taking it out after fermentation is more than about 2/3 done.

 

[redrocker652002]

You certainly can take the fermenter out of the fridge soon or even now. In fact the yeast will clean things up a little faster at warm temperatures than if left cool. No problem at all taking it out after fermentation is more than about 2/3 done.

Cool. I think I will wait until next week to make sure. Thank you

 

[Bassman2003]

It is important to think of any of the later duties of yeast to happen before they "complete" fermentation. Meaning that if your beer is finished, (at terminal gravity), the majority of yeast activity is over. So if you decide to do a rest or expect the yeast to be "cleaning up", it is just not going to happen very quickly. So I think the D-rest should happen before terminal gravity but not be too high of a temp to create new things for the yeast to clean up! Temperature only = yeast activity. If you have strong yeast activity at the end, you technically do not need a D-rest because they are vibrant enough to eat everything anyway.

This is why we make starters and pitch a lot of healthy yeast cells - for the end of fermentation. That is where the beers either become refined or not.

If you are lagering, a slow temperature ramp down is beneficial to keep the remaining active yeast alive and active. Then lagering can also be some cleanup. If you crash cool and the yeast go dormant, lagering turns into just particulate settling.

 

[redrocker652002]

It is important to think of any of the later duties of yeast to happen before they "complete" fermentation. Meaning that if your beer is finished, (at terminal gravity), the majority of yeast activity is over. So if you decide to do a rest or expect the yeast to be "cleaning up", it is just not going to happen very quickly. So I think the D-rest should happen before terminal gravity but not be too high of a temp to create new things for the yeast to clean up! Temperature only = yeast activity. If you have strong yeast activity at the end, you technically do not need a D-rest because they are vibrant enough to eat everything anyway.

This is why we make starters and pitch a lot of healthy yeast cells - for the end of fermentation. That is where the beers either become refined or not.

If you are lagering, a slow temperature ramp down is beneficial to keep the remaining active yeast alive and active. Then lagering can also be some cleanup. If you crash cool and the yeast go dormant, lagering turns into just particulate settling.

OK, cool. So, if I am looking at a FG of say 1.011 and I am at something more than that, now would be a good time to ramp up the temp? What is a good temp for the "cleanup" phase? Mid to high 60's? I guess I will take a gravity reading today just to see. I am in day 6 if that helps anything. Thanks for all the info. Unfortunately I don't do starters as of yet, and dry yeast has been my go to as I tried one liquid yeast and it didn't quite work out, but I will give another a shot with a starter soon just to say I tried.

 

[Bassman2003]

I used the term starter as I that is what I do but the equivalent is using more than one yeast pack, which you did. Plenty of yeast ensures they will not overwork themselves and be tired for the cleanup. The time to the cleanup would be 5-10 points above terminal gravity. Basically, let your yeast finish out at the elevated temperature. But the amount of temp elevation is up to you, your brewing practice and the yeast themselves. Traditional lager brewers would raise from 50F only to say 53F for this task as they do not want to go warmer at all. If your yeast does not act well at warmer temps, then I would not go above 55-57F for lager. This also depends on how much yeast your pitched and if you have any pressure involved etc...

With Diamond, you are probably fine to raise it to 60F with some points remaining and let it finish fermentation. But the higher you go, the longer the "slow" ramp down takes! Some only do 2 degrees F a day. Lager has a lot of different approaches and levers to play with.

 

[redrocker652002]

I used the term starter as I that is what I do but the equivalent is using more than one yeast pack, which you did. Plenty of yeast ensures they will not overwork themselves and be tired for the cleanup. The time to the cleanup would be 5-10 points above terminal gravity. Basically, let your yeast finish out at the elevated temperature. But the amount of temp elevation is up to you, your brewing practice and the yeast themselves. Traditional lager brewers would raise from 50F only to say 53F for this task as they do not want to go warmer at all. If your yeast does not act well at warmer temps, then I would not go above 55-57F for lager. This also depends on how much yeast your pitched and if you have any pressure involved etc...

With Diamond, you are probably fine to raise it to 60F with some points remaining and let it finish fermentation. But the higher you go, the longer the "slow" ramp down takes! Some only do 2 degrees F a day. Lager has a lot of different approaches and levers to play with.

Awesome. Thanks for the info. My OG was off about .003 or so. According to Brewfather I was supposed to be at 1.049 and I came in at 1.052. According to BF my FG is supposed to be at 1.011 and I am now at 1.010, so I missed the chance to do what you are saying. I have been fermenting at about 55 degrees, so I figure I will just leave it at that for another two weeks and check it again. My idea is to move it to my keg and start the lagering and carbonating at that point. So, I should start at say 50 to 53 and drop it a degree or two a day until I get to about say 40? This is all very new to me, so all the info is very much appreciated.

 

[redrocker652002]

OK, so this is weird to me. I finished typing and walked over to the hydrometer and it now reads 1.014? When you take a reading, do you let the hydrometer sit for a few minutes before you take the reading? If so, I have been doing it wrong all the time. And in this case, I think it is a good thing that I checked because now that means it still has some time to go and I can raise up the temp a bit to clean things up. So, with that said, I think I will raise the temp up to about 58 and leave it be for a week or two and see if the faint smell of eggs goes away. Thoughts?

 

[Bassman2003]

Sounds like a good plan. This D-rest is more for colder fermenting largers. The thinking being if you are fermenting at 48F or 50F, the yeast are fairly slow at these temps. So raising the temperature up a bit adds more activity. If you are conducting your fermentation at 55f or 60F, the yeast do not need much help being active because they are not at cold temps. So the rest is not as important. Beyond off flavors, raising the temps at the end of a mash schedule can help with further attenuation.

 

[dmtaylor]

OK, so this is weird to me. I finished typing and walked over to the hydrometer and it now reads 1.014? When you take a reading, do you let the hydrometer sit for a few minutes before you take the reading? If so, I have been doing it wrong all the time. And in this case, I think it is a good thing that I checked because now that means it still has some time to go and I can raise up the temp a bit to clean things up. So, with that said, I think I will raise the temp up to about 58 and leave it be for a week or two and see if the faint smell of eggs goes away. Thoughts?

The correct reading is the one you get immediately after putting the hydrometer in, as soon as it's not bobbing up and down. If you wait a couple minutes, carbon dioxide will stick to the hydrometer and make it read higher. This is not accurate. You need to get the reading before it sits for more than a minute or two.

Yes, increase temperature until the sulfur is gone. Common practice, and effective. Cheers.

 

[redrocker652002]

The correct reading is the one you get immediately after putting the hydrometer in, as soon as it's not bobbing up and down. If you wait a couple minutes, carbon dioxide will stick to the hydrometer and make it read higher. This is not accurate. You need to get the reading before it sits for more than a minute or two.

Yes, increase temperature until the sulfur is gone. Common practice, and effective. Cheers.

OK, cool. Not exactly what I wanted to hear then as my OG was at 1.052 and Brewfather had it as 1.049. My gravity when I tested it this morning was at 1.005 and BF had it at 1.010. Either I screwed something up or I missed my numbers pretty bad. First try so we will see. Gonna ride it out, let it sit at 58d for two more weeks and transfer it to my keg and lager it for a month or so and see what I end up with. Interesting stuff, and I am a bit confused as to why the numbers missed so badly, but the taste will tell me if I did it right or not. LOL.

 

[Bassman2003]

The final is somewhere in between. With that yeast, I do not see 1.005 1.014 to 1.010 seems more likely. Monitor the gravity and no need to let it sit two weeks if it is finished. As you brew more you will begin to see the arbitrary times fade away and the beer will tell you the schedule to set.

 

[Dland]

Maybe don't worry too much about numbers projected by brew programs or even recipes. There are many variables not addressed by these. The important thing is that the beer tastes good to you, and heading toward the style and flavor of beer you had in mind.

Although it is not addressed as much in brewing instructions or on this forum, cold side of fermenting process is as important to a good outcome as what one does on brew day.

One can make great beer without some of these, but they can help when trying to get above a certain level, especially but not exclusively with lagers.

Free advice for what it is worth;

In general and almost always, it is best not to rush things on the cold side of process.

Temperature controlled fermentation helps a lot, using natural conditions like a winter cellar, and/or cooling equipment.

Monitoring fermentation progress instead of looking at timetable.

D rests if working with cooler fermented lagers.

Letting most brews brew condition some before cold crashing.

Cold storage when waiting for beer to clear after cold crash.

 

[hottpeper13]

When a brewery in my home town repurposed an old (1800) building into their tap room and restaurant I was intrigued because it was a brewery when first constructed and has fermenting caves underneath. I'm pretty sure there was no way to do a D-rest back in the day so I took the most used yeast, 34/70, and fermented it for 3 weeks at 55* ,kegged and lagered at 33* for 4 weeks. No butter or farts,was a little cloudy with no fining but that's 34/70. I know this is yeast dependent but , just saying. My current choice is wlp833 and it needs 48-50 for 2 weeks and 60 for 1 then into a keg for lagering. Get to know your yeast by fermenting all along it's published range and then SOP it when you get the flavor you're looking for. Most of my beers are 1.050 and take 3 weeks primary and 4 weeks lagering.

 

[mac_1103]

I'm pretty sure there was no way to do a D-rest back in the day

Sure there was - move the beer to a warmer part of the building.

 

[hottpeper13]

Get that steam driven pump moving!

 

[redrocker652002]

Great info folks. I think the part about forgetting the numbers the brew software gives and go with the taste is the best advice of all. I am going to leave it another week. The yeast has pretty much settled I think. Next friday it will go into a keg and sit in my kegerator at about 35 for another 3 weeks. I will start carbing as well at about 10 to 12 psi. At the end of 3 weeks I will pull a pint or two and see what I have. When I open the door to my fermenting fridge I get a whiff of like a bread smell, not really rotten eggs as much any more. While it was fermenting it smelled really sweet. I had my wife, who hates beer, give it a whiff and she said the same thing, smelled more like bread. She didn't catch any egg smell at all. So, I think that is going to be the plan of attack. Thanks all for the info, and keep it coming, I take everything said to heart and try and learn from all of you.

 

[whoaru99]

From the last lager I did, and it's been a while, I seem to recall there was some sort of rule of thumb for recommended lagering time.

Don't quote this as gospel, but something like one or two weeks per 5 points of OG comes to mind.

 

[dmtaylor]

From the last lager I did, and it's been a while, I seem to recall there was some sort of rule of thumb for recommended lagering time.

Don't quote this as gospel, but something like one or two weeks per 5 points of OG comes to mind.

I know of no such rule of thumb. If it exists, it represents the opinion of a tiny fraction of lager brewers.

 

[Bassman2003]

The rule of thumb for me with lagers is pitch a lot more yeast than you usually do for an ale. I am taking steps all of the time to improve this. Most off flavors or issues with lagers are due to how much of a struggle it is for the yeast to make it to the finish line in great shape. More healthy yeast solves most everything. You do not need a big D-rest if you have a ton of healthy yeast chomping at the end of fermentation. Higher temperatures are in vogue with lagers which is fine but is really a move away from huge yeast pitches at low temps. It is expensive & time consuming to get a really large pitch together.

I continue to try to make super lagers but they are kind of a pain compared to ales!

 

[whoaru99]

I know of no such rule of thumb. If it exists, it represents the opinion of a tiny fraction of lager brewers.

Several references to a book by some fellow named Noonan. Whether he's a true authority or not I can't say, but he does appear to have several books published. There may be others but that came up quickly.

By your comment may I presume you have some authority to speak on behalf of a large contingent of lager brewers?

 

[dmtaylor]

Several references to a book by some fellow named Noonan. Whether he's a true authority or not I can't say, but he does appear to have several books published. There may be others but that came up quickly.

By your comment may I presume you have some authority to speak on behalf of a large contingent of lager brewers?

I have no authority. I just spend a huge chunk of my life on homebrewing forums, have done so for more than 20 years. This is the summation of my observations.

All I'm saying, honestly and realistically:

Noonan is dead (RIP), and most people don't read books anymore.

I myself could write a ton of books, but I'm too lazy and disorganized & random in my thoughts. Easier to quarterback from the armchair.

What I really mean is, brewers these days in 2024 are more exploratory and experimental. Some give credit to Brulosophy and their common conclusions that tasters could not tell the difference between X & Y, yadda yadda. And to some extent that is true. Regardless, IF there are actual rules of thumb in 2024, they differ broadly across a huge spectrum, and it depends who you ask. And so then, is it actually a "rule of thumb"? Ask 100 brewers for their opinions or their own rules of thumb about lagering, or any other topic, and although you might not get 100 different answers, you will get dozens of different ideas of what matters most vs. what doesn't matter much or at all. We're not all brewing the same way. We never will. Too many free thinkers and people trying to take shortcuts and finding out that hey, people are still buying the beer and apparently enjoying it anyway, so why overcomplicate things, or why not rush through a lager that might otherwise take 8 weeks to lager. 8 weeks!? Hardly anybody is doing that kind of stuff anymore. 20 years ago, YES, we were more rigid with things like this. Today?! Naw.

I mean no disrespect. Just being open and keeping it real in summarizing my honest impressions of how many folks brew things these days, compared to how many/most might have done a decade or two ago. Things are different. The craft is changing fast and it's not easy to keep up.

Cheers.

 

[Beermeister32]

I like lagering that long. Easy to do if running multiple kegs.

 

[Spivey24]

I lager as I drink the keg. I don’t mind the lagers a little green. They clean up as the keg goes down though.

What I don’t really understand and I’ve seen this many times now, is my observance of lagering while on tap vs just sitting in a keg. So I generally do 10 gallons batches of light colored German pilsners into 2 fermenters. Ferment at 52F then raise a little towards the end. After the tilts show no change for several days, I will start cold crashing and gelatin fining. After a couple of days I will package into 2 kegs, carb lightly, and let sit for a week. Then put one on tap and the other leave at 36F in the chest freezer. After a week on tap and drinking several beers off of it, it really is cleaned up. But the keg sitting won’t be cleaned up even after 3 weeks and will take a week on tap to fully clean. And when I say clean, I mean taste wise, and not clear. The only thing I can think of is the difference of being fully carbed, or maybe the action of pouring off settling particulars.

 

[fluketamer]

I lager as I drink the keg. I don’t mind the lagers a little green. They clean up as the keg goes down though.

 

[Bassman2003]

No doubt the brewing industry is changing fast. Even many German breweries have strayed from tradition practices. But that does not mean the traditional practices lose any kind of merit. As homebrewers, we do not need to act like commercial entities who feel like they have to alter what they want to do vs what they have to do for financial health. That is actually an advantage us homebrewers have. We can follow whatever best practice that was ever created. Or we can put cupcakes in the primary etc...

My only issue is when folks who have not done the research or have the experience start saying 'things don't matter...' Well, there is a lot of documentation of what does matter - to make the best beer. Being uninformed or lazy or just uninterested is not a defense.

Homebrewing has a lot of dogmatic practices built around convenience and ignorance. In comparison to research driven and time tested practices of large brewing operations. Things are improving with more exchanges of high level information from head brewers down to just access to the famous texts. I look at what I have been exposed to in my 22 years from brewing. I started with a bucket and dream and now do things totally differently.

I have found knowledge wins over convenience most of the time! But that is just me, and up to you the brewer to decide.

 

[fluketamer]

I like lagering that long. Easy to do if running multiple kegs.

yes on this. once i got my second minifridge

I like lagering that long. Easy to do if running multiple kegs.

this. once i got another kegerator i was able to brew more , keg more and now i cant keep up with the pipeline. so inevitably lager ends up sitting in the keg up to 60 days now and it definately does make a big difference.

 

[Bassman2003]

I lager my Belgian blondes for 4 weeks. I have learned not to waste anything before as some magic definitely takes place.

 

[whoaru99]

I have no authority. I just spend a huge chunk of my life on homebrewing forums, have done so for more than 20 years. This is the summation of my observations.

Fair enough. But, regardless whether you agree or not about it, I am surprised you have not at least seen it with that much time on forums.

I saw it here years ago and times since. I've not read Noonan's books either but cited that as at least some level of credibility rather than what might be sort of a circular reference to some other guy's posts on a forum.

 

[VikeMan]

From the last lager I did, and it's been a while, I seem to recall there was some sort of rule of thumb for recommended lagering time.

Don't quote this as gospel, but something like one or two weeks per 5 points of OG comes to mind.

Several references to a book by some fellow named Noonan.

I don't recall Noonan's rule of thumb for lagering time. I do "recall" a rule of thumb of 7/8ths of a day per (OG) gravity point. I recall it because I built it into BrewCipher. But it's been so long that I don't remember what people/things in addition to my experience at the time influenced that. At any rate, it's just an estimate to be tried in the absence of prior experience with a particular recipe/process.

Bigger beers have more stuff in them that needs to drop out of suspension than smaller beers. But even for two beers of the same gravity: grain bill, mash schedule, yeast strain, tannin levels, lagering temperature, and probably some things I'm forgetting influence the time needed to effectively clear the beer.

ETA: Lagering vessel configuration...i.e. the beer will clear faster in a shallow tank than in a tall one.