I'm about to give up.

[bwible]

Just curious, do other people notice the banana? I ask because with my own beers some people notice certain flavors and aromas more than I do. Making me not the best judge of my own beer.

German wheat beers have a balance of mostly 2 spices - bananna or clove. Some have more bananna, others have more clove. I am with OP, I prefer the ones that have less clove and more bananna in the balance.

 

[Jayjay1976]

Just curious, do other people notice the banana? I ask because with my own beers some people notice certain flavors and aromas more than I do. Making me not the best judge of my own beer.

The guys at my LHBS have tried it and are puzzled about what the problem might be. Year before last I brought my whole system over there for a group brew session in the parking lot, and though I didn't brew a weissbier on that day the instructor checked out my setup and didn't see any problems with my process. Besides the instructor, I was the only other AG brewer who turned up that day, everyone else brewing extract batches so he spent most of the time watching me brew.

On a side note, the hefeweizen the instructor brews has the perfect balance of banana-clove and that intangible, elusive German-ness that takes me back to the years we spent living in southern Germany where we fell in love with the style, sipping fresh Hefeweizen in the hot summer sun.

Here are a few things I can think of that I haven't yet tried:

-Another type of fermenter, glass maybe? I ferment 6 gallon batches in 7 gallon plastic fermonsters
-Chilling with something other than my copper counterflow unit
-Higher end malts, I tend to use Avangard though I did a batch a while back with Bestmalz Heidelberg pils. Should I try floor malted Weyermann or something else?
-Intentionally underpitching; I either pitch a fresh activator pack or most recently a pouch of Lallemand MC dry yeast
-Combination underpitching with oxygenation as mentioned by @TheMadKing
-A different water profile than those listed above
-I own a pH meter but haven't yet started using it, depending mostly on the predictions by brewersfriend
-Due to my BIAB process, most or all break material ends up in the fermenter, should I filter or whirlpool to avoid that?

 

[friarsmith]

FWIW I've made this recipe several times, and I started getting even more banana notes when I reduced the listed sparge volume by a gallon or so, making for a higher gravity wort for the initial pitch. IIRC higher wort density is mentioned as a driver of banana notes in the Bavarian article mentioned above. I then top up the fermenter after 5-6 days with a gallon of water. This has the added benefit of increasing headspace which helps w/ the typically psycho hefe yeast strains. I generally pitch at 64-66* and let the fermenter free-rise while sitting at 70-72* ambient. The fermenter usually tops out at 74-76*.

If you skip the ferulic rest in this recipe the banana will be more prominent. I prefer the beer to be pretty balanced with banana/clove, so I use a FR.

https://www.brewersfriend.com/homebrew/recipe/edit/841661

 

[Jayjay1976]

The best wheat beer I ever made was made with all wheat DME (the only way I ever make wheat beer) and Wyeast 3068 fermented during the summer at high temperatures. It must have been 90 degrees where that was fermenting. I’m sure I used one of the noble hops such as Hallertauer, Tradition, or Tettnanger. I remember that one had plenty of bananna.

Thanks for the idea, whether or not I can achieve my goals with an AG batch I'm going to try brewing an extract kit. It will be my first time brewing from a kit and also my first time using extract for anything other than a starter, but it is a great way to rule out ingredient and recipe problems.

 

[TwistedGray]

The one hefe I had from @GaBrewZoo had the most banana character of any that I have ever had, so I've tagged Mister Georgia in here to see if he might offer some insight.

Edit: this was 1-2yrs ago in a FotHB trade (all the most reason to get in on those).

 

[Hoppy2bmerry]

German wheat beers have a balance of mostly 2 spices - bananna or clove. Some have more bananna, others have more clove. I am with OP, I prefer the ones that have less clove and more bananna in the balance.

 

[Jayjay1976]

The one hefe I had from @GaBrewZoo had the most banana character of any that I have ever had, so I've tagged Mister Georgia in here to see if he might offer some insight.

Edit: this was 1-2yrs ago in a FotHB trade (all the most reason to get in on those).

Thank you!

 

[jswillbrewforbeer]

This is strange problem. Is the Weisse at your LHBS you mentioned exactly what you're after? If so maybe brew it with them and exchange notes. Also, a bit unconventional but for me Wyeast 1214 produces both noticeable banana and clove and you can really change the character by adjusting fermentation variables.

 

[balrog]

More esters = stress (because they are spelled using the same letters?)
I would *SERIOUSLY* underpitch a 1/2 or even 1/3 packet wb06 to try with normal wort production and higher temp fermentation (low 70s).

 

[Hoppy2bmerry]

The guys at my LHBS have tried it and are puzzled about what the problem might be. Year before last I brought my whole system over there for a group brew session in the parking lot, and though I didn't brew a weissbier on that day the instructor checked out my setup and didn't see any problems with my process. Besides the instructor, I was the only other AG brewer who turned up that day, everyone else brewing extract batches so he spent most of the time watching me brew.

On a side note, the hefeweizen the instructor brews has the perfect balance of banana-clove and that intangible, elusive German-ness that takes me back to the years we spent living in southern Germany where we fell in love with the style, sipping fresh Hefeweizen in the hot summer sun.

Here are a few things I can think of that I haven't yet tried:

-Another type of fermenter, glass maybe? I ferment 6 gallon batches in 7 gallon plastic fermonsters
-Chilling with something other than my copper counterflow unit
-Higher end malts, I tend to use Avangard though I did a batch a while back with Bestmalz Heidelberg pils. Should I try floor malted Weyermann or something else?
-Intentionally underpitching; I either pitch a fresh activator pack or most recently a pouch of Lallemand MC dry yeast
-Combination underpitching with oxygenation as mentioned by @TheMadKing
-A different water profile than those listed above
-I own a pH meter but haven't yet started using it, depending mostly on the predictions by brewersfriend
-Due to my BIAB process, most or all break material ends up in the fermenter, should I filter or whirlpool to avoid that?

Okay, your tastebuds aren’t in question. Most of my wheat beers turn out good, even when I was new at brewing, club members that lived in Germany gave me positive feedback about my beers encouraging me to enter competitions. (Sorry bragging not intended) At that time I wasn’t really comfortable with my process yet. The vast majority of wins I have are for some type of wheat beer, though not all German. My most used fermentor is a 4 gallon plastic pail, so it fits with the idea that there is a little more surface area (it is wider and short compared to a 6.5) I also suspect my water could be to blame for my success, though I‘ve never read about water influencing yeast expression. You are an experienced brewer, so it isn’t the process, you’ve selected the right yeast and ingredients. Perhaps it is water.

 

[Jayjay1976]

My LHBS sells Brewer's Best kits, their Hefeweizen kit contains LME. I'm going to pick one up this week and brew it up next Saturday.
Now I have to go read up on how to brew with extract!

 

[h22lude]

Esters and clove will be from the acid rest. Banana will come from under pitching your yeast. No starter, one packet right in. Ferment high 60s

 

[IslandLizard]

Just for kicks, how do you mill your grain. How fine? What's the gap width, for the wheat especially?

Forget kits, especially LME kits. Freshness issues.

One of our club brewers brews a very good Hefe, mainly for his wife, and swears by using 100% DME instead of all-grain.
If you want to try extract, you can buy Wheat DME. Briess' is 65% Wheat, 35% Barley. That's what he uses.
http://www.brewingwithbriess.com/Assets/PDFs/Briess_PISB_CBWBavarianWheatDME.pdf

 

[HopSing]

It also sounds like the yeast need to be stressed. Lower pitch rate, increase OG, increase fermentation temp, shorten clean up time after fermentation before kegging, etc..

You may want to think about playing with 1 gallon batches to tune recipes exactly for these reasons.

~HopSing.

 

[Jayjay1976]

The weizen kit from my LHBS only includes LME and hops anyway, not much of a kit so I'll pick up some DME instead, thanks for the input. To rule out water variables I can try a very simple, minimalist adjustment to my RO, any suggestions? Also, any suggestions for optimal OG?

I'm really getting into the idea of trying extract, it just eliminates so many variables. My end goal here is to produce and enjoy a keg of good hefeweizen; mastering an AG method to get there is really a secondary objective, one I can focus on after I redeem myself in the eyes of my frau.

 

[Jayjay1976]

Just for kicks, how do you mill your grain. How fine? What's the gap width, for the wheat especially?

Forget kits, especially LME kits. Freshness issues.

One of our club brewers brews a very good Hefe, mainly for his wife, and swears by using 100% DME instead of all-grain.
If you want to try extract, you can buy Wheat DME. Briess' is 65% Wheat, 35% Barley. That's what he uses.
http://www.brewingwithbriess.com/Assets/PDFs/Briess_PISB_CBWBavarianWheatDME.pdf

I used to crush super fine but a half dozen batches ago I opened the gap so it just grabs a credit card. Since then my efficiency has been steady and predictable at 77% and the flavors of my finished beers are much cleaner.

 

[Ninoid]

According this try:
- more simple sugar (33% of grain bill)
- high fermentation temperature (up to 30'C)
- banana yeast (maybe Belgian)
- no washed or yeast with big starter

 

[Jayjay1976]

Holy crap DME is EXPENSIVE. I could just about buy a whole sack of base malt for what it will cost to brew 6 gallons @1.060 with extract.

 

[Hoppy2bmerry]

The weizen kit from my LHBS only includes LME and hops anyway, not much of a kit so I'll pick up some DME instead, thanks for the input. To rule out water variables I can try a very simple, minimalist adjustment to my RO, any suggestions? Also, any suggestions for optimal OG?

I'm really getting into the idea of trying extract, it just eliminates so many variables. My end goal here is to produce and enjoy a keg of good hefeweizen; mastering an AG method to get there is really a secondary objective, one I can focus on after I redeem myself in the eyes of my frau.

With extract use distilled water. (unless RO water is mineral free, that is... I’m still not clear on that)

 

[IslandLizard]

I used to crush super fine but a half dozen batches ago I opened the gap so it just grabs a credit card. Since then my efficiency has been steady and predictable at 77% and the flavors of my finished beers are much cleaner.

I can't see crushing super fine causing the lack of banana flavor.
I was more thinking if you crush too coarsely you may not get enough extraction from the wheat. Wheat has much smaller kernels than barley, and most may pass through uncrushed. I've seen and tasted those results (in other brewer's beers) from the rather coarse crush our venerable LHBS provides.

Now a credit card width gap is around 0.034" which is too coarse for wheat, IMO. I therefore re-adjust the mill to crush small kernel grain such as wheat and rye at their own, narrower gap of 0.025". Oat malt even a tad tighter. I use a converted cooler mash tun with a CPVC manifold. No recirculation, batch sparge 2x.

 

[IslandLizard]

With extract use distilled water. (unless RO water is mineral free, that is... I’m still not clear on that)

For brewing purposes they are the same. Although it may vary depending on the mineral content of the water source, RO through a proper working membrane may contain up to 12 ppm of minerals (TDS meter), usually less. You won't notice the difference.

 

[Jayjay1976]

I can't see crushing super fine causing the lack of banana flavor.
I was more thinking if you crush too coarsely you may not get enough extraction from the wheat. Wheat has much smaller kernels than barley, and most may pass through uncrushed. I've seen and tasted those results (in other brewer's beers) from the rather coarse crush our venerable LHBS provides.

Now a credit card width gap is around 0.034" which is too coarse for wheat, IMO. I therefore re-adjust the mill to crush small kernel grain such as wheat and rye at their own, narrower gap of 0.025". Oat malt even a tad tighter. I use a converted cooler mash tun with a CPVC manifold. No recirculation, batch sparge 2x.

Well as I BIAB I used to crush really fine, no banana, and now I crush a little coarser but my efficiency stayed pretty much the same. My actual observation is that it went up from 75% to 77% but that doesn't make sense so I chalk it up to other variables, but in any case I can't see the coarser crush as causing the lack of banana. My latest batch contained 66% wheat malt and my cereal killer crushed it just fine, if it was crushed insufficiently I would have expected a noticeable drop in efficiency but in fact it turned out to be a bit higher than expected as I overshot my target by a few points.

 

[Jayjay1976]

With extract use distilled water. (unless RO water is mineral free, that is... I’m still not clear on that)

Hey thanks, never thought about it but the minerals from the mash would be included in the DME, wouldn't they? I'll just use straight RO, in my case it still has ~7 ppm dissolved minerals but that's close enough for brewing.

 

[ncbrewer]

From Bru'n Water by Martin Brungard:

When brewing with RO or Distilled Water and Malt Extracts, the Extract should provide most of the minerals needed for proper fermentation performance. But the ion balance in the Malt Extract is typically moderate. If the Brewer desires a specific flavor profile, additional Sulfate or Chloride containing minerals can be added to the brewing water. The Water Adjustment sheet can help the Brewer assess how much of these minerals should be added to the brewing water.​

It turns out that you can't necessarily rely on the extract manufacturer to take care of the mineral additions. I checked with Williams Brewing and was told "no salt or other water additives were used during the mashing process of our liquid malt extracts." and "It is California tap water with nothing added." I've read similar things about others but can't remember specifics. So I think you can benefit from experimenting with salt additions, but it amounts to fine tuning.

 

[IslandLizard]

Holy crap DME is EXPENSIVE. I could just about buy a whole sack of base malt for what it will cost to brew 6 gallons @1.060 with extract.

Yeah, just about. It runs $14 for a 3 pound bag at my LHBS. No more than regular all-barley DME.

I usually get Light Pilsen DME (only used for starters here) at our group grain buy, splitting a 50# sack among 2-5 participants. It's less than half the sting that way, not counting the sticky arm at the end.

Maybe do a few 1 or 2 gallon batches until you figured it out.
It may well be due to overpitching... so don't overdo that part.

 

[Jayjay1976]

From Bru'n Water by Martin Brungard:

When brewing with RO or Distilled Water and Malt Extracts, the Extract should provide most of the minerals needed for proper fermentation performance. But the ion balance in the Malt Extract is typically moderate. If the Brewer desires a specific flavor profile, additional Sulfate or Chloride containing minerals can be added to the brewing water. The Water Adjustment sheet can help the Brewer assess how much of these minerals should be added to the brewing water.​

It turns out that you can't necessarily rely on the extract manufacturer to take care of the mineral additions. I checked with Williams Brewing and was told "no salt or other water additives were used during the mashing process of our liquid malt extracts." and "It is California tap water with nothing added." I've read similar things about others but can't remember specifics. So I think you can benefit from experimenting with salt additions, but it amounts to fine tuning.

Do you know whether they adjust mash pH? I'm really shocked at this, I expected a super advanced, high efficiency mashing process if for no other reason than just to maximize efficiency and profit. But then again, the salts ain't free. I'm coming to realize that water adjustments likely have little impact on the final product including the production of isoamyl acetate.

Also, the solution to my problem is probably something stupid simple, and we're all just thinking too damned hard!!

 

[Hoppy2bmerry]

Do you know whether they adjust mash pH? I'm really shocked at this, I expected a super advanced, high efficiency mashing process if for no other reason than just to maximize efficiency and profit. But then again, the salts ain't free. I'm coming to realize that water adjustments likely have little impact on the final product including the production of isoamyl acetate.

Also, the solution to my problem is probably something stupid simple, and we're all just thinking too damned hard!!

Yes, this is in relation to using calcium to bring out maltiness and gypsum for more hop character (keeping it elementary for brevity’s sake) When purchasing LME OR DME we buy malt not beer add water. Though come to think of it it would be nice if a kit came with salts to make the correct water profile. With that said, my extract brews were improved by using distilled water, rather than filtered tap.

 

[tripeland]

Well as I BIAB I used to crush really fine, no banana, and now I crush a little coarser but my efficiency stayed pretty much the same. My actual observation is that it went up from 75% to 77% but that doesn't make sense so I chalk it up to other variables, but in any case I can't see the coarser crush as causing the lack of banana. My latest batch contained 66% wheat malt and my cereal killer crushed it just fine, if it was crushed insufficiently I would have expected a noticeable drop in efficiency but in fact it turned out to be a bit higher than expected as I overshot my target by a few points.

I have made two weizen beers in the past and was unhappy with both. I think my issue was similar to yours, with no real banana prevalent. At the time I was BIABing.
I remember reading somewhere that the banana flavour is suppressed from a turbid wort. The turbidity of a BIAB wort is usually off the charts. It certainly was for mine when I was making them.
I have since switched to 3V and get crystal clear wort into the kettle but was so put off making weizen that I have not tried again since.

 

[SanPancho]

I use a fermonster with a blowoff tube in just a bit of starsan. I understand that is not truly "open" but the miniscule amount of backpressure can't be more than the day to day fluctuation in barometric pressure due to weather changes.

Next.

well known and respected brewer of saisons in socal area once explained to me that he couldnt get them the way he wanted them until he did an atmospheric/full open ferment. no blowoff. not the same yeast, but if that works for saison.....

 

[Jayjay1976]

I have made two weizen beers in the past and was unhappy with both. I think my issue was similar to yours, with no real banana prevalent. At the time I was BIABing.
I remember reading somewhere that the banana flavour is suppressed from a turbid wort. The turbidity of a BIAB wort is usually off the charts. It certainly was for mine when I was making them.
I have since switched to 3V and get crystal clear wort into the kettle but was so put off making weizen that I have not tried again since.

This sounds like a real possibility! I must have read the same article, because since that time I've looked at my recirculating cooling method with suspicion. At that time I was chasing down problems I was having with a bitter, husky, grainy off flavor that plagued many batches until I figured out that my mill gap was set too tight. I have wondered whether it is worth trying an immersion chiller just to see how things might change.

THANK YOU!