Recirculation and whirlpooling should help you eliminate as much cold break into the fermenter as possible which I believe may be your problem. Use the recommended amount of whirlfloc/irish moss in the last 10 minutes of the boil and then whirlpool/recirculate while chilling. The majority of the proteins should coagulate and pile up in the middle of the kettle and if undisturbed should remain the kettle for the most part. I don't use gelatin or anything post brew session for clearing my beers and the lighter beers turn out crystal clear.
I Can't Stand Cloudy Beer
- Thread starter Doc Robinson
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Recirculation and whirlpooling should help you eliminate as much cold break into the fermenter as possible which I believe may be your problem. Use the recommended amount of whirlfloc/irish moss in the last 10 minutes of the boil and then whirlpool/recirculate while chilling. The majority of the proteins should coagulate and pile up in the middle of the kettle and if undisturbed should remain the kettle for the most part. I don't use gelatin or anything post brew session for clearing my beers and the lighter beers turn out crystal clear.
Never mind, missed someone else's answer
Unless your temperature is way out of whack, you aren't crushing your grain at all, or you're using poorly modified malt I highly doubt you're getting incomplete conversion. If you're getting proper reported attenuation for your yeast strains you're using then it's not going to be incomplete conversion.
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Doc Robinson
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A dude at my LHBS thinks that it either something in the filter that caused the haze or a bacteria infection...puzzles folks...puzzles.
i too had cloudy beer woes. some brews would come out nice but would stay cloudy until the keg was like 2/3rds gone sometimes even with proper aging. it got old after a while. i did a lot of reading around here and found the miracle of gelatin. you just dissolve like a teaspoon in a pint of really hot water and then pour that mixture into the keg when you keg. a couple days later that beer is clear and bright. no more beer woes for me!
You haven't mentioned that your beer had an off taste yet so I am going to discount the bacteria infection but I suppose it could be the filter medium possibly but I doubt it. You could always test that theory by running clean water through the filter and chilling it to see if a haze appears.
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Doc Robinson
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Yeah...I was thinking of doing that, but I highly doubt that is the issue. Although, the filter is brand new (each one is disposable and fits in this housing):
I assume you probably obtained the filter medium from NB as well, if that's the case you can discount that as well. Those housing/filter combo's are used quite a bit in our hobby and do not cause that.
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Doc Robinson
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Word...it all circles back to my process. The boil & the chill. I bought some Whirlfloc at lunch too.
cjmcfoot
Well-Known Member
I changed my process as well and started using whirlfloc over irish moss. I didn't find any remarkable improvement. However what seemed to work well and without fail, is to use a handfull of 500L in every batch. If you have not read Papazian's homebrewers companion it mentions in the text to use a small amount of blackpatent for each and every batch, a small amount will have no effect on color but will help with protein coagulation.
Ever noticed how ambers seem to clarify better than blondes? He even makes mention of larger commercial breweries employing this technique. I can't recite the exact page for you guys as I am at work right now and the book is at home.
I started doing that and I also make it a good point of getting a good rolling boil for the entire boil process. I have always used a chiller so I knew it had to be a hotbreak issue as opposed to a cold break issue.
Those three changes have made all of my beers crystal clear in the keg or the bottle, I do both.
1.) A good rolling boil (hotbreak)
2.) Whirlfloc at 15min
3.) Handful of black patent in every batch (10gallon batches)
Ever noticed how ambers seem to clarify better than blondes? He even makes mention of larger commercial breweries employing this technique. I can't recite the exact page for you guys as I am at work right now and the book is at home.
I started doing that and I also make it a good point of getting a good rolling boil for the entire boil process. I have always used a chiller so I knew it had to be a hotbreak issue as opposed to a cold break issue.
Those three changes have made all of my beers crystal clear in the keg or the bottle, I do both.
1.) A good rolling boil (hotbreak)
2.) Whirlfloc at 15min
3.) Handful of black patent in every batch (10gallon batches)
pkeeler
Well-Known Member
You might try taking your wort down to 34 deg. F, then letting it come back up to pitching temp., then pitching the yeast.
One other thing, what yeast are you using? Some strains can be very powdery, others are less flocculent of course.
One other thing, what yeast are you using? Some strains can be very powdery, others are less flocculent of course.
Hermit
fuddle
I've never had a good cold break until this last Saturday. I'm doing 3 gallon batches on the stove top so I always sneak up on the boil so it doesn't go over and have wondered if the two were related. This time I just let it rip wide open until it was really going. I had to lift it off the burner and did get a very small boil over. I also got my first good cold break.
Rip
Well-Known Member
Lot's of process-oriented questions here... but hmmm, no mention of water quality issues?
I live in Sacramento California and our water is extremely soft (very little calcium or RA) - my personal experience has been that almost all of my all-grain recipies have been plagued with poor clarity!
Recent batches have included various brewing salts to get my chemistry correct including proper Calcium levels, I've notived huge gains in clarity and speed of clearing. Maybe check your water quality report for Fishers and see what's up?
- Mike
p.s It seems that my Kolsch never wanted to drop clear either.
I live in Sacramento California and our water is extremely soft (very little calcium or RA) - my personal experience has been that almost all of my all-grain recipies have been plagued with poor clarity!
Recent batches have included various brewing salts to get my chemistry correct including proper Calcium levels, I've notived huge gains in clarity and speed of clearing. Maybe check your water quality report for Fishers and see what's up?
- Mike
p.s It seems that my Kolsch never wanted to drop clear either.
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Doc Robinson
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Very good point. However, I build all my water from RO to hit my target RA & chloride/sulfate ratio for my intended style...well actually, I usually cut my tap 2 parts RO & 1 part tap...so for 10 gallons I will prep 15 gallons and 10 of that is RO. Still, I have obtained my water quality report (even called the chemist to verify specifics) and I think I have a really good handle on my water.
Who knows man...I hit the keg with 1 tsp. of gelatin in 1 cup of 170 degree water (then cooled/bloomed for 20 minutes) last night and shook that mother like crazy to get it all mixed up. By the time I get home tonight, it will have been 24 hours and I'll see if there is any noticeable effect.
dogbar
Well-Known Member
Wait, what? What's the theory on this one?
cjmcfoot
Well-Known Member
According to Papazian it has to do with polyphenols and the coagulation of proteins. I believe it is on page 126 in the "Homebrewer's Companion", if you don't have this book you should get it, it has a wealth of information in it.
I can't explain why or how it works but it does, I have seen it work. My last three batches are brews I have done about 5 or 6 times over the last two years according to my logs, and the most recent batches are clear as a bell, the only difference is the black patent in the mix.
I don't know go figure.cjmcfoot (The big-phoot brew house)
dogbar
Well-Known Member
What's the color impact? I'm really curious about this.
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Doc Robinson
Well-Known Member
I would like to know too...I have heard that even 1 oz. can make a difference.
I have run my beer through a CFC since the dawn of time (or very early in my homebrewing adventures anyway) and have had very clear to crystal clear beer each time. Especially when I remember the Irish Moss.
The one time I had cloudy beer was last year when I brewed at an RV park. My Blonde came out cloudy. It NEVER cleared. I suspect an infection. Also, I fermented the first 2 days at above optimal temps (meaning I forgot to account for the 85 degree weather when I packed my stuff...)
So, cloudy, phenolic blonde.
But otherwise, I have had good luck without a filter system. Also, keep in mind that some people dont' even chill their beer and yet manage to get it clear. Check out the No Chill threads.
The one time I had cloudy beer was last year when I brewed at an RV park. My Blonde came out cloudy. It NEVER cleared. I suspect an infection. Also, I fermented the first 2 days at above optimal temps (meaning I forgot to account for the 85 degree weather when I packed my stuff...)
So, cloudy, phenolic blonde.
But otherwise, I have had good luck without a filter system. Also, keep in mind that some people dont' even chill their beer and yet manage to get it clear. Check out the No Chill threads.
cjmcfoot
Well-Known Member
In my 10 gallon batches I use about an ounce of black patent with each recipe. My last brew was a hybrid of EdWorts Pale Ale, so it was quite blonde and it changed the SRM by one.
Keep in mind this is a 10 gallon batch so essentially in a five gallon batch you can use 0.5oz.
I double checked last night it is on page 126,(The Homebrewer's Companion) towards the bottom of the text. 2nd to last paragraph.
dogbar
Well-Known Member
Thanks for the replies, I'm absolutely going to try this.
I think my problem is that I get a good cold break (with Whirlfloc), but I haven't figured out a good way to get the clear wort into the fermenter without leaving too much behind in the kettle. So I get the break, most of it ends up in the bucket, then I thrash the heck out of it to aerate.
Anyway, that's my theory. Thanks again for the tip.
I think my problem is that I get a good cold break (with Whirlfloc), but I haven't figured out a good way to get the clear wort into the fermenter without leaving too much behind in the kettle. So I get the break, most of it ends up in the bucket, then I thrash the heck out of it to aerate.
Anyway, that's my theory. Thanks again for the tip.
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Doc Robinson
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I think my brew yesterday was a success given that I saw/experienced things I haven't seen/experienced before. The plan was to boil hard to ensure a good hot break, to use whirlflock, and to chill quickly with recirculation back into the kettle...the wort was crystal clear going into the carboys (except for the last minute or so into the second carboy where a bunch of break material was transferred - I hope that is OK). Next time, I am going to need to account for the volume lost at the bottom of the kettle in and around all the break material:
Cool picture of the break forming before the boil:
Boiling the **** out of the wort:
Clear wort with visible break beneath the surface:
Second carboy filled (you think some break got into the fermenter)?
Cool picture of the break forming before the boil:
Boiling the **** out of the wort:
Clear wort with visible break beneath the surface:
Second carboy filled (you think some break got into the fermenter)?
Looks good to me, you got a good cold break on that brew. It's typical to get break into the fermenter once you get low in your wort run off. The only way to eliminate more break is to leave more beer behind really unless you can filter it.
In my experience, transferring break material into the fermenter doesn't cause it to resuspend- it'll all settle out and compact with the trub. Once it's coagulated like that, it'll still out.
Good job on the "egg drop soup" in the kettle. That's what I always think hot break looks like.
It looks great!
Good job on the "egg drop soup" in the kettle. That's what I always think hot break looks like.
It looks great!
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Wow, never had a hot break like that! Can't wait to start recirculating with my CFC after seeing that cold break!
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Doc Robinson
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Yeah. I couldn't be happier with the results (except for maybe the amount of brew lost to the kettle). I also boiled for 90 minutes because my base was Pilsner, but I'm not sure that that was even necessary with the ferocity of my boil...I think I boiled off 3 gallons (or 1 every 30 minutes).
Well, your boil off might be a bit excessive, but at least you can adjust it for next time if this technique works to give you better clarity for next time.
I really think that whirlfloc has been magic for me- every one of my beers is absolutely crystal clear and I've never used gelatin or other post-boil finings. Even with a non-flocculant yeast (like Wyeast 1007), I've had clear beer just from kettle finings and time.
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Doc Robinson
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Well, I'm not sure which single variable it was, but you can be damn sure whirlfloc will be used in every boil. Thanks for all your help. I'll bump the thread again once I have a picture of the brew in the glass.
btprice2001
Active Member
So with Doc's pics above, is the crud on top of the boil in the first pic a good example of hot break? I definitely get that but I don't get anything like the third or fourth pics.
I'm only doing partial mash/partial boils though. I've brewed five batches so far (since January, best x-mas gift from my wife ever!), and I definitely had chill haze in the first two batches that were ready to drink.
Process-wise, I'm just cooling the wort down by putting the pot in the kitchen sink and letting cold water overflow to the other side of the sink to drain. I'm able to get below 80F within 30 minutes. Is this not quick enough? Should I be getting it to a colder temp? Should I let is sit for any amount of time before transferring to the fermenter?
I'm only doing partial mash/partial boils though. I've brewed five batches so far (since January, best x-mas gift from my wife ever!), and I definitely had chill haze in the first two batches that were ready to drink.
Process-wise, I'm just cooling the wort down by putting the pot in the kitchen sink and letting cold water overflow to the other side of the sink to drain. I'm able to get below 80F within 30 minutes. Is this not quick enough? Should I be getting it to a colder temp? Should I let is sit for any amount of time before transferring to the fermenter?
The first picture is just the wort boiling- the "hot break" comes when the big huge head of foam finally "breaks" and then there isn't much risk of boilovers. Like when you make spaghetti, and get that big foamy head, it's comprised of proteins. After the "hot break", you have pieces of coagulated protein in the wort that look like egg drop soup (the third picture).
My preference would be to get the wort to 70 degrees, not 80, in the ice bath. That should give you a good cold break, and should help minimize chill haze. Ideally, you'd do it in 20 minutes or less.
What you can do, since you're doing partial boils, is to stick your top off water in the freezer or fridge. When your wort gets to 80-85 degrees, add the water cold to it, to get the wort to 62-70 degrees. It will take a few times (or else good math skills) to know exactly what your "sweet spot" for cold water additions is to get it to perfect pitching temps in the shortest time.
My preference would be to get the wort to 70 degrees, not 80, in the ice bath. That should give you a good cold break, and should help minimize chill haze. Ideally, you'd do it in 20 minutes or less.
What you can do, since you're doing partial boils, is to stick your top off water in the freezer or fridge. When your wort gets to 80-85 degrees, add the water cold to it, to get the wort to 62-70 degrees. It will take a few times (or else good math skills) to know exactly what your "sweet spot" for cold water additions is to get it to perfect pitching temps in the shortest time.
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