I Can't Stand Cloudy Beer

[Doc Robinson]

I'm about to give up. I've used irish moss, gelatin, cold crashing, and filtering with a 1 micron filter. I have brewed maybe 15 batches, of which 2 have been crystal. The rest are not.

My most recent was a Kolsch. I primaried for a month, cold crashed at 30 for a week, racked to a corny and let it sit over night in the fridge, pumped it through a 1 micron filter, and forced carbed it at 30 psi for a 5 minute shake. The ****er is opaque...I can't even see an outline of my fingers on the other side of the glass.

The beer flowing through the racking cane looked clear as glass...in the carboy it looked brilliant...WHAT THE F*CK IS GOING ON!?

My only thoughts at this point: (1) the quick force carbing had some effect & (2) I'm not getting a good cold break using a counterflow chiller.

I just don't know any more.

 

[nealf]

If you let it sit in a keg for a few weeks everything will become crystal clear. Sounds like it is possibly chill haze if everything else looks crystal. I am not sure what size filter is necessary to filter out chill haze as I have no experience with filtering setups. Sorry for the bad news; but, it will definitely drop clear eventually in a keg... at least IME (even my hefes will eventually clear)

 

[homebrewer_99]

Just my guess...maybe you're drinking your brew too soon?

I give mine at least 1 month in the bottle. Sample along the way. When the carb level is good they all go into the fridge. They sit in the fridge for at least 2 days before sharing. Always clear.

 

[fineexampl]

i can understand wanting to learn the process, but if the stuff tastes good, chill haze is such a small problem.

 

[pkeeler]

How long does it take to get from boiling to fermentation temps with your chiller? What kind of malt and infusion are you doing?

Does it taste good?

 

[Doc Robinson]

i can understand wanting to learn the process, but if the stuff tastes good, chill haze is such a small problem.

The stuff tastes good, but I strive for perfection. Chill haze is not a small problem for me...it is something that I need to correct to attain maximum enjoyment on all sensory levels.

 

[Doc Robinson]

How long does it take to get from boiling to fermentation temps with your chiller? What kind of malt and infusion are you doing?

Does it taste good?

I can get 10 gallons from boiling to 60 in 10 minutes...one pass through the chiller. The malts run the gamut, but the base is always 2-row, usually with a backbone of vienna, munich, etc. I understand some clarity issues using wheat, but when I'm not using wheat, I expect absolute clarity given the methods I am using when my base is 2-row...ESPECIALLY through a 1 micron filter...however, a .5 micron is rated to remove all proteins causing chill haze, but then you start stripping flavor. I don't think that is the issue.

 

[Yooper]

I'm guessing that it's a lack of a good cold break. A good cold break and whirlfloc together make every single one of my beers crystal clear.

The other thought I had was that maybe you've got a starch haze from incomplete conversion or from ingredients that didn't convert.

 

[boo boo]

Could it be a starch problem with your mash?

Washing unconverted starch into the kettle from the mash will lead to haze.

 

[Doc Robinson]

I'm guessing that it's a lack of a good cold break. A good cold break and whirlfloc together make every single one of my beers crystal clear.

The other thought I had was that maybe you've got a starch haze from incomplete conversion or from ingredients that didn't convert.

Does cold break happen in a counterflow chiller, and at what temperature threshold does the break happen? I could use my immersion chiller to hit that point quickly during a whirlpool, and then pump out through my counterflow.

And incomplete conversion? How do I ensure, or achieve complete conversion. I am using a single infusion batch sparge method.

 

[Yooper]

Does cold break happen in a counterflow chiller, and at what temperature threshold does the break happen? I could use my immersion chiller to hit that point quickly during a whirlpool, and then pump out through my counterflow.

And incomplete conversion? How do I ensure, or achieve complete conversion. I am using a single infusion batch sparge method.

I am no expert on CFCs, but you should know if you got a good break- it'll be big gobs of goobers in your wort. I'll see if I can dig up a picture of how a really good cold break looks. Also, make sure you're getting a good hotbreak. After the hot break, the wort will look like it's got egg drop soup in it. If you use whirlfloc at 15 minutes, that will really help. It works great for me.

As far as conversion, an iodine test is the only sure way I know of. You're not using much wheat- what about oats, rice, corn, or other adjuncts? (That's a long shot, but thought I'd ask.)

 

[annasdadhockey]

I got one Yoop.

This is running the wort through a CFC.

 

[Yooper]

Another thing I thought of- is your wort clear? My wort is very clear when I move it to the fermenter. If you've got a hazy wort, that means an incomplete coagulation of the proteins (hot or cold break).

I found a picture of some cold break and clear wort in Biermuncher's gallery:

 

[yodalegomaster]

Fineing is a science, there are 2 types, positive and negative charge, Most fines work on the negative charged particles. I still use Irish moss/wirlfloch in every batch, but the best fine is PolyClar, When you add it to the fermentor, you can see the particles float to the bottom, the whole color changes. Now that's how I get a clean brew. The positives need to be removed with Sparcaloyd, You can't fine positive and negative at the same time so I use poly clar wait 3 days, then sparcaloyd which requires 2 weeks.

 

[Reno_eNVy]

Chill haze is one of those things that just happens and you have to deal with it, in my opinion. 7-10 days with the keg in the kegerator produces crystal clear beers, even when it's not called for (Hefe --> Kristallweiss)

 

[Doc Robinson]

I am no expert on CFCs, but you should know if you got a good break- it'll be big gobs of goobers in your wort. I'll see if I can dig up a picture of how a really good cold break looks. Also, make sure you're getting a good hotbreak. After the hot break, the wort will look like it's got egg drop soup in it. If you use whirlfloc at 15 minutes, that will really help. It works great for me.

As far as conversion, an iodine test is the only sure way I know of. You're not using much wheat- what about oats, rice, corn, or other adjuncts? (That's a long shot, but thought I'd ask.)

I have seen what looks like a really good break in the bottom of my kettle...it is an off-white fluffy mass of goop that clumps together really well. However, I don't know if that is my "hot" or "cold" break. I am assuming the cold break ends up in the fermenter, not the kettle...what ends up in my fermenter looks really clean (very cloudy with no chunks). I don't know if I'm getting a good hot break either though, because I don't see what you describe as "egg drop soup" in my boiling wort. I never gave much thought to my hot break because I assumed I was getting it...I boil up hard and quickly and I thought that that was the key to a hot break.

I have never used an adjunct, and when I use wheat, I know that my clarity isn't going to be crystal, but with 2-row, vienna, and a little crystal, I hope for absolute clarity. I need to figure this out in my process.

You do big batches don't you? Are you just using a huge immersion chiller?

 

[Doc Robinson]

Anna's Dad and Yoop,

Holy crap I have NEVER seen anything like that Yoop...the only time I have ever seen chunky turbidity in my fermenter was literally in my first two batches ever, which were extract 5 gallon brews on my kitchen stove using an immersion chiller (now I am on a 15 gallon pot on a banjo burner with a CFC that I pump the wort through with a march pump).

My wort is NEVER clear going into the fermenter, and my wort never looks like that going into the fermenter using my CFC Anna's Dad. I just get cloudy wort with no chunks going into the fermentor, and I haven't seen chunky turbidity in my ferments since my first 2 batches...my 3rd batch was AG and I have never looked back.

 

[jppostKW]

I have seen what looks like a really good break in the bottom of my kettle...it is an off-white fluffy mass of goop that clumps together really well. However, I don't know if that is my "hot" or "cold" break. I am assuming the cold break ends up in the fermenter, not the kettle...what ends up in my fermenter looks really clean (very cloudy with no chunks). I don't know if I'm getting a good hot break either though, because I don't see what you describe as "egg drop soup" in my boiling wort. I never gave much thought to my hot break because I assumed I was getting it...I boil up hard and quickly and I thought that that was the key to a hot break.

I have never used an adjunct, and when I use wheat, I know that my clarity isn't going to be crystal, but with 2-row, vienna, and a little crystal, I hope for absolute clarity. I need to figure this out in my process.

You do big batches don't you? Are you just using a huge immersion chiller?

Do you gravity feed the wort into the fermenter i.e. one pass or do you recirculate thru the CFC back into the kettle until its cool?

 

[Doc Robinson]

Do you gravity feed the wort into the fermenter i.e. one pass or do you recirculate thru the CFC back into the kettle until its cool?

I pump the wort from the kettle through the CFC straight into the carboy (one pass).

 

[Yooper]

Anna's Dad and Yoop,

Holy crap I have NEVER seen anything like that Yoop...the only time I have ever seen chunky turbidity in my fermenter was literally in my first two batches ever, which were extract 5 gallon brews on my kitchen stove using an immersion chiller (now I am on a 15 gallon pot on a banjo burner with a CFC that I pump the wort through with a march pump).

My wort is NEVER clear going into the fermenter, and my wort never looks like that going into the fermenter using my CFC Anna's Dad. I just get cloudy wort with no chunks going into the fermentor, and I haven't seen chunky turbidity in my ferments since my first 2 batches...my 3rd batch was AG and I have never looked back.

Well, my wort is clear once it's chilled. I am thinking that you've got some suspended proteins in there. It could be starch haze, but it sounds like you could be having problems with a good hot break and cold break.

I just now got a CFC, and only used it once, so I can't advise much on that! Up until now, I've used an immersion chiller. I live in a cold climate, so my tap water is 45 degrees. I always get a good cold break! I also am a believer in a good hot break, too. I am starting to think that you're not getting a good hot break at the beginning, and not getting a good cold break at the end. I would highly recommend whirlfloc- it seems like the "egg drop soup and goober" wort appeared when I started using whirlfloc. Even my stout is crystal clear!

 

[manticle]

Polyclar will remove chill haze if used properly. Are your beers clear at room temperature?

Are you using tons of late hops?

 

[goose1873]

I use whirlfloc every batch but lately I've cold crashed (35F) after 3 weeks in primary for 7 days. At day 4 of 7 I add 1 packet of knox gelatin (heated to 170 in 4 oz water and then cooled)...Give it a quick stir and keg on day 7. Cold crashing before adding gelatin allows for the chill haze to be removed...

all I know is i'm drinking a crystal clear kolsch and I mean crystal...gelatin is now a staple for my lighter beers...

 

[Doc Robinson]

Well, my wort is clear once it's chilled. I am thinking that you've got some suspended proteins in there. It could be starch haze, but it sounds like you could be having problems with a good hot break and cold break.

I just now got a CFC, and only used it once, so I can't advise much on that! Up until now, I've used an immersion chiller. I live in a cold climate, so my tap water is 45 degrees. I always get a good cold break! I also am a believer in a good hot break, too. I am starting to think that you're not getting a good hot break at the beginning, and not getting a good cold break at the end. I would highly recommend whirlfloc- it seems like the "egg drop soup and goober" wort appeared when I started using whirlfloc. Even my stout is crystal clear!

I really appreciate your help. So what would you suggest in terms of getting a good hot break? I am thinking, based on the question posed above, that maybe I should recirculate the wort through the chiller and back into the kettle...maybe that would help the cold break?

I'm going to give whirlfloc a try.

Polyclar will remove chill haze if used properly. Are your beers clear at room temperature?

Are you using tons of late hops?

My beers seem clear at room temperature...in the carboys and as I rack. I'm not using a ton of late hops in general, but I have.

 

[Yooper]

I really appreciate your help. So what would you suggest in terms of getting a good hot break? I am thinking, based on the question posed above, that maybe I should recirculate the wort through the chiller and back into the kettle...maybe that would help the cold break?

I'm going to give whirlfloc a try.



My beers seem clear at room temperature...in the carboys and as I rack. I'm not using a ton of late hops in general, but I have.

I'd suggest keeping the boil going really hard until you get a hot break, then backing off a bit. I almost boiled over a 5 gallon batch (about 6.75 gallons) in a keggle again on Thursday! But once I got past the hot break, I was able to keep it at a rolling boil with much less heat. (I have an electric keggle, so I went from 100% back to 65% to keep the boil, after the hot break).

Recirculating might help, so that you get colder, faster. Really, if you're going from boiling to 60 degrees in one pass, though, I can't imagine why you're not getting a fantastic cold break. Like I said, try whirlfloc next time and see if it changes.

Aside from whirlfloc, I haven't used any finings at all. Not gelatin, not polyclar, sparkelloid, etc. I'm not adverse to using them, but haven't needed them because it's already clear out of the fermenter. Even my Vienna lager (that is just now being lagered) is crystal clear. I think Whirlfloc is why.

 

[nealf]

I agree, whirlfloc is great stuff. If you have an immersion chiller you could always try a JZ style whirlpool cooling method:

http://www.mrmalty.com/chiller.php

 

[jppostKW]

I'd suggest keeping the boil going really hard until you get a hot break, then backing off a bit. I almost boiled over a 5 gallon batch (about 6.75 gallons) in a keggle again on Thursday! But once I got past the hot break, I was able to keep it at a rolling boil with much less heat. (I have an electric keggle, so I went from 100% back to 65% to keep the boil, after the hot break).

Recirculating might help, so that you get colder, faster. Really, if you're going from boiling to 60 degrees in one pass, though, I can't imagine why you're not getting a fantastic cold break. Like I said, try whirlfloc next time and see if it changes.

Aside from whirlfloc, I haven't used any finings at all. Not gelatin, not polyclar, sparkelloid, etc. I'm not adverse to using them, but haven't needed them because it's already clear out of the fermenter. Even my Vienna lager (that is just now being lagered) is crystal clear. I think Whirlfloc is why.

You might try recirc after flame out see if it changes anything YMMV but It is my plan when i revamp my process for 2 reasons leave hot and cold break and hop particles in the kettle and two drop the hot thermal mass as a whole instead of what ever is going thru the CFC

I think a systematic elimination or change in procedures will get it done Doc it might take a couple batches to notice any change. you probably already know this but keep good notes!!!

 

[manticle]

I really appreciate your help. So what would you suggest in terms of getting a good hot break? I am thinking, based on the question posed above, that maybe I should recirculate the wort through the chiller and back into the kettle...maybe that would help the cold break?

I'm going to give whirlfloc a try.



My beers seem clear at room temperature...in the carboys and as I rack. I'm not using a ton of late hops in general, but I have.

If they're clear when it's warmer then it's most likely chill haze. Polyclar will clear that up as will extended lagering (or so I've just been told in a thread on the aussiehomebrewer site)

Some answers may be here:http://www.aussiehomebrewer.com/forum//index.php?showtopic=42744&st=0

Make sure you gelatin and crash chill first before adding polyclar - it works best when most of the yeast has been dropped out.

 

[Doc Robinson]

If they're clear when it's warmer then it's most likely chill haze. Polyclar will clear that up as will extended lagering (or so I've just been told in a thread on the aussiehomebrewer site)

Some answers may be here:http://www.aussiehomebrewer.com/forum//index.php?showtopic=42744&st=0

Make sure you gelatin and crash chill first before adding polyclar - it works best when most of the yeast has been dropped out.

I performed an experiment last night...I poured a pint and let it sit on the counter overnight...in the morning, the beer was as cloudy as when I poured it the night before. Given that, I am going to say this is NOT chill haze.

Where to go from here...?

On Saturday I'm going to boil fast & hard, add whirlfloc at 15 minutes, recirculate the chiller before pumping to the carboys, & whirlpool the chilled wort in the kettle and let it sit for 30 minutes hoping for clear wort into the carboys.

Sound good?

 

[Yooper]

Sounds good to me. I don't whirlpool (the electric element is in the way) but I think it's a good idea if you can do it.

I bet you'll notice a big difference with the whirlfloc!

 

[Doc Robinson]

Sounds good to me. I don't whirlpool (the electric element is in the way) but I think it's a good idea if you can do it.

I bet you'll notice a big difference with the whirlfloc!

Thanks again for all your help! Together, we are going to get to the bottom of this. I'll keep you posted.

 

[hukdizzle]

I really appreciate your help. So what would you suggest in terms of getting a good hot break? I am thinking, based on the question posed above, that maybe I should recirculate the wort through the chiller and back into the kettle...maybe that would help the cold break?

I'm going to give whirlfloc a try.



My beers seem clear at room temperature...in the carboys and as I rack. I'm not using a ton of late hops in general, but I have.

Recirculation and whirlpooling should help you eliminate as much cold break into the fermenter as possible which I believe may be your problem. Use the recommended amount of whirlfloc/irish moss in the last 10 minutes of the boil and then whirlpool/recirculate while chilling. The majority of the proteins should coagulate and pile up in the middle of the kettle and if undisturbed should remain the kettle for the most part. I don't use gelatin or anything post brew session for clearing my beers and the lighter beers turn out crystal clear.

 

[HiGravShawn]

Never mind, missed someone else's answer

 

[hukdizzle]

Unless your temperature is way out of whack, you aren't crushing your grain at all, or you're using poorly modified malt I highly doubt you're getting incomplete conversion. If you're getting proper reported attenuation for your yeast strains you're using then it's not going to be incomplete conversion.

 

[Doc Robinson]

Unless your temperature is way out of whack, you aren't crushing your grain at all, or you're using poorly modified malt I highly doubt you're getting incomplete conversion. If you're getting proper reported attenuation for your yeast strains you're using then it's not going to be incomplete conversion.

A dude at my LHBS thinks that it either something in the filter that caused the haze or a bacteria infection...puzzles folks...puzzles.

 

[sully]

i too had cloudy beer woes. some brews would come out nice but would stay cloudy until the keg was like 2/3rds gone sometimes even with proper aging. it got old after a while. i did a lot of reading around here and found the miracle of gelatin. you just dissolve like a teaspoon in a pint of really hot water and then pour that mixture into the keg when you keg. a couple days later that beer is clear and bright. no more beer woes for me!

 

[hukdizzle]

A dude at my LHBS thinks that it either something in the filter that caused the haze or a bacteria infection...puzzles folks...puzzles.

You haven't mentioned that your beer had an off taste yet so I am going to discount the bacteria infection but I suppose it could be the filter medium possibly but I doubt it. You could always test that theory by running clean water through the filter and chilling it to see if a haze appears.

 

[Doc Robinson]

You haven't mentioned that your beer had an off taste yet so I am going to discount the bacteria infection but I suppose it could be the filter medium possibly but I doubt it. You could always test that theory by running clean water through the filter and chilling it to see if a haze appears.

Yeah...I was thinking of doing that, but I highly doubt that is the issue. Although, the filter is brand new (each one is disposable and fits in this housing):

 

[hukdizzle]

I assume you probably obtained the filter medium from NB as well, if that's the case you can discount that as well. Those housing/filter combo's are used quite a bit in our hobby and do not cause that.

 

[Doc Robinson]

I assume you probably obtained the filter medium from NB as well, if that's the case you can discount that as well. Those housing/filter combo's are used quite a bit in our hobby and do not cause that.

Word...it all circles back to my process. The boil & the chill. I bought some Whirlfloc at lunch too.

 

[cjmcfoot]

I changed my process as well and started using whirlfloc over irish moss. I didn't find any remarkable improvement. However what seemed to work well and without fail, is to use a handfull of 500L in every batch. If you have not read Papazian's homebrewers companion it mentions in the text to use a small amount of blackpatent for each and every batch, a small amount will have no effect on color but will help with protein coagulation.
Ever noticed how ambers seem to clarify better than blondes? He even makes mention of larger commercial breweries employing this technique. I can't recite the exact page for you guys as I am at work right now and the book is at home.
I started doing that and I also make it a good point of getting a good rolling boil for the entire boil process. I have always used a chiller so I knew it had to be a hotbreak issue as opposed to a cold break issue.
Those three changes have made all of my beers crystal clear in the keg or the bottle, I do both.
1.) A good rolling boil (hotbreak)
2.) Whirlfloc at 15min
3.) Handful of black patent in every batch (10gallon batches)