How to achieve "hoppy" flavour?

[Protos]

Then, if I understand correctly, the Dipping Charge should be much larger than the Kettle-boiled one?
Otherwise, the pee from the Kettle Charge would neutralize the Dipping effect?

Just want to calculate how big the Dipping charge must be in relation to the rest of the hops.
I'm thinking of brewing a Kölsch-like ale with noble-like but very grassy hops.

 

[JAReeves]

From what I have read and my experience so far, Dip Hopping is basically the same charge you would add to a whirlpool step@170F. The "tea" it creates burns off some of the volatiles that can be offensive to some tasters. You can see from my posted recipe that I use a lot of hops in multiple stages in order to capture their essence as best I can. Since I am using Brewers Friend to calculate IBU's, I will change the amounts in my recipe to fit a target, and just play with the amounts to fit the hops I am using. I just brewed this CTZ Single Hop one on Saturday, the airlock smells amazing. I plan on playing with single-hop beers for this year in oder to see how they work at various stages of the brew process. This one is CTZ, which is significantly more AA and therefore almost 2oz less for a similar grain bill in the Blonde Ale.

 

[Protos]

Thanks for the explanation! Now I got it: you employ Dip Hopping similarly to how you would employ Whirlpool. That gives a tip.

Still I hardly grasp the whole point. Well, doing Dip Hopping eliminates "the pee" from a certain late hop addition [which otherwise could be employed as a Whirlpool addition]. But Whirlpool is rarely a very significant part in a hopping schedule. So, it should be plenty of pee coming from the kettle-boiled charges anyway. Can't see, how Dipping might noticeably alter the hopping profile, when it eliminates the pee just in a small part of the total hopping load.

Trying the technique myself seems like the only way to understand its impact on beer.

Interestingly, just yesterday I read several threads on a South African brewing forum where they were discussing South African hops (I got me some of those, that's why I went to look for tips on how to use ZA hops). It seems they like their local hops for the cheap price but hate the unpleasant grassiness present in many varieties. So, what many of them do is to shorten the bittering charge boiltime just to 20 mins. It's a standard and widespread practice among them, it seems.
So, here's another way to eliminate the excessive myrcene.

Probably, I will combine both methods: will give the bittering addition a very short boiltime and dip hop the late addition.

 

[T Murph]

@Protos please post results when you brew that. Include pictures.

 

[Protos]

OK, when I brew that I'll share tasting notes and pics.

I'm really interested in experiments on curbing the Myrcene twang as I got me a load of South African and Ukrainian hops which are all nicely aromatic but, from my previous experiences, may be grassy.

 

[bwible]

Thanks for the explanation! Now I got it: you employ Dip Hopping similarly to how you would employ Whirlpool. That gives a tip.

Still I hardly grasp the whole point. Well, doing Dip Hopping eliminates "the pee" from a certain late hop addition [which otherwise could be employed as a Whirlpool addition]. But Whirlpool is rarely a very significant part in a hopping schedule. So, it should be plenty of pee coming from the kettle-boiled charges anyway. Can't see, how Dipping might noticeably alter the hopping profile, when it eliminates the pee just in a small part of the total hopping load.

Trying the technique myself seems like the only way to understand its impact on beer.

Interestingly, just yesterday I read several threads on a South African brewing forum where they were discussing South African hops (I got me some of those, that's why I went to look for tips on how to use ZA hops). It seems they like their local hops for the cheap price but hate the unpleasant grassiness present in many varieties. So, what many of them do is to shorten the bittering charge boiltime just to 20 mins. It's a standard and widespread practice among them, it seems.
So, here's another way to eliminate the excessive myrcene.

Probably, I will combine both methods: will give the bittering addition a very short boiltime and dip hop the late addition.

I never got the whole “dip hop” vs whirlpool thing either but I’ve stayed out of these kinds of discussions and flipped past these kinds of articles where people talk about whirlpooling gigantic hop additions at the end of the boil with NZ hops while throwing around words like “dank” in particular (I can’t stand that word) because to me that means they are making NEIPA and I have zero interest. My throat physically closes and I gag every time I look at one. But thats me. I don’t want beer that looks like the junk I pour out of the fermenter after racking to a keg.

 

[Protos]

they are making NEIPA and I have zero interest

Same here. No intentions to brew a brothy hop soup. Never cared for NEIPAs, whether manufactured or homebrewed.

 

[Broothru]

Same here. No intentions to brew a brothy hop soup. Never cared for NEIPAs, whether manufactured or homebrewed.

+2.

Never warmed up to NEIPAs. Neither do I have much affection for much of anything "hazy." It's not the taste as much as it is the appearance. Any chef worth his salt will tell you that you 'eat' with your eyes. To me, anything murky or cloudy looks unfinished or poorly crafted.

Sorry, that's just my visceral reaction. I'm fine with "juicy" or "dank" flavor in NZ hops, but prefer clarity in my beer.

As in life, brewing offers variety and diversity, but there will always be room for personal preference.

 

[Broothru]

Mods. Double post. Pls delete.

 

[Protos]

To me, anything murky or cloudy looks unfinished or poorly crafted.

^This. Nothing against the dankiest and juiciest of hops. It's a nice change of pace, sometimes. Murkiness, however, just looks very unappetising.

As in life, brewing offers variety and diversity, but there will always be room for personal preference.

Big Brother countless NEIPAs hogging taps in every and each pub say otherwise.

 

[JAReeves]

One of the reasons I have not been drinking a lot of craft beer from local breweries is that I can't get a bitter beer anymore. Everything is juicy and hazy. All the more reason to practice how to get the most out of the hops at home!

 

[Broothru]

^This. Nothing against the dankiest and juiciest of hops. It's a nice change of pace, sometimes. Murkiness, however, just looks very unappetising.


Big Brother countless NEIPAs hogging taps in every and each pub say otherwise.

Haven't been frequenting many pubs lately, but I have seen the shelves in liquor stores. Sadly agree. Between hazyes, ciders and seltzers, the 'real estate' on beer shelves has gotten quite crowded. Recently I took a chance on a local brewery's interpretation of a German Pils. It was a disgusting hazy, murky, cloudy, milky substance which, though not necessarily bad tasting, was an immediate dumper. Lagers (especially German lagers) are supposed to be CLEAR! The abomination I had purchased was anything but clear, and that just ain't RIGHT!

The remainder of the six-pack sat in a dark corner of the beer fridge for a month or so before I mustered up the courage to try a second one. Maybe I had just gotten a bad can, or maybe the beer had just been put out the door too soon and had not been allowed to properly settle before packaging. No such reprieve. Just as murky, but I was psychologically prepared for the inevitable disappointment and was able to choke it down.

I'll not attempt to dictate to others what they should or should not enjoy, nor will I try to limit innovation and experimentation in creating new styles. Have at it, hipsters. But when you start messin' with my lagers or (mostly) clear ales, expect some pushback.

Oh, and "Keep off my lawn, Kid."

 

[Protos]

They think they know better than you what's better for you and what you must like and what you shouldn't. That's not just about beer anymore. That's the spirit of the time. Beer's just a tiny aspect of the universal trend.
"NEIPA Holywars" aren't about beer or personal tastes either. It's about an ongoing Cultural Revolution where we are the losing party, unfortunately.
Until they come in and ban us to brew (cause it's "harmful" to us as well as to society and climate - and they will someday, no doubts) let's try to find out finally, till we have some time left, "how to achieve "hoppy" flavour"

 

[monkeymath]

Lagers (especially German lagers) are supposed to be CLEAR! The abomination I had purchased was anything but clear, and that just ain't RIGHT!

Not to make this (another) thread about hazy beers, but I have mixed feelings here. For a few years now, we've had this stupid trend of "naturtrüb" or "naturally hazy" beers in Germany, usually labeled as "Kellerbier", which are often downright murky to the point where I seriously question the attribute "naturally": every homebrewer knows that an unfiltered, properly made, beer will display quite decent clarity, even more so if it was given some time to mature (as you would expect in a lager). So, really, they must be using some weird tricks to achieve that appearance and have it hold up in the bottle! I was disappointed to find even well-regarded breweries like Brauhaus Riegele, which I have a lot of respect for otherwise, following this trend.

That said, I feel that the usual lagers are crystal clear, but for the wrong reasons: not because they are so well made and given lots of time to mature, but simply due to filtration. Filtration might not work as well if the beer it is applied to isn't quite clear to begin with, but that's not the point: the clarity is the product of a technical process, the conformity of which with the Reinheitsgebot is rather curious (afaik, the reasoning here is that the plastic particles employed in PVPP filtration are not present in the final beer and should thus not be considered an "ingredient", similar to the role yeast plays).
So those lagers being clear is not a demonstration of the brewer's skill, attention to detail and devotion to the craft. In particular, lagers should imho not be expected to display this level of clarity. The "flagship" beer of Giesinger Bräu, an ever-growing craft brewery in Munich, is in fact an unfiltered "Kellerbier" which possesses pretty much exactly the level of clarity I'd expect. (I still find it a terrible beer, although for different reasons. It is immensely popular among my friends, though, which continues to puzzle me.)

 

[Protos]

For a few years now, we've had this stupid trend

For sure, we've got a lot of even stupidier trends coming ahead.
I promise you: in our lifetime we'll see a trend for SLIMY beers.

Hipsters (or what that kind of folks would be called then) would scoop and slurp their bioengineered beery blobs from soft silicone chalices.
Old codgers will be avoiding entering pubs to not throw up at seeing that.

 

[JAReeves]

For sure, we've got a lot of even stupidier trends coming ahead.
I promise you: in our lifetime we'll see a trend for SLIMY beers.

Hipsters (or what that kind of folks would be called then) would scoop and slurp their bioengineered beery blobs from soft silicone chalices.
Old codgers will be avoiding entering pubs to not throw up at seeing that.

Not even Ray Bradbury envisioned that one.

 

[Protos]

...They'll also establish that the Slime Sludgy Ale "Old Blob" is better for old codgers than any other beer those might want.
So then they'll legislate its compulsory consumption. Three pint-sized blobs per each codger every evening. At the codger's own expense.

 

[JAReeves]

"Slime Sludge Ale is People!"

Doesn't quite have the same ring to it.

 

[Broothru]

Not to make this (another) thread about hazy beers, but I have mixed feelings here. For a few years now, we've had this stupid trend of "naturtrüb" or "naturally hazy" beers in Germany, usually labeled as "Kellerbier", which are often downright murky to the point where I seriously question the attribute "naturally": every homebrewer knows that an unfiltered, properly made, beer will display quite decent clarity, even more so if it was given some time to mature (as you would expect in a lager). So, really, they must be using some weird tricks to achieve that appearance and have it hold up in the bottle! I was disappointed to find even well-regarded breweries like Brauhaus Riegele, which I have a lot of respect for otherwise, following this trend.

That said, I feel that the usual lagers are crystal clear, but for the wrong reasons: not because they are so well made and given lots of time to mature, but simply due to filtration. Filtration might not work as well if the beer it is applied to isn't quite clear to begin with, but that's not the point: the clarity is the product of a technical process, the conformity of which with the Reinheitsgebot is rather curious (afaik, the reasoning here is that the plastic particles employed in PVPP filtration are not present in the final beer and should thus not be considered an "ingredient", similar to the role yeast plays).
So those lagers being clear is not a demonstration of the brewer's skill, attention to detail and devotion to the craft. In particular, lagers should imho not be expected to display this level of clarity. The "flagship" beer of Giesinger Bräu, an ever-growing craft brewery in Munich, is in fact an unfiltered "Kellerbier" which possesses pretty much exactly the level of clarity I'd expect. (I still find it a terrible beer, although for different reasons. It is immensely popular among my friends, though, which continues to puzzle me.)

Last July I brewed a Helles for a late September local competition which coincides with Oktoberfest (we have a history in my area of German immigration and influence that pre-dates the American Revolution in 1776). Although I do not brew in strict compliance with the Reinheitsgebot I do try to at least follow the spirit when brewing German lagers, but with this beer I neither fined nor filtered. It didn't have enough time to adequately lager and settle, so it wasn't nearly as sparkling as I would have liked. The keg got relegated to the back of the beer fridge while the other kegs slowly got emptied over the winter months.

Finally three weeks ago I retapped the keg, since it was the final one remaining. The beer wasn't as tasty as it was when fresh. The Hallertau Mittelfruh had lost their sparkle. But the appearance! Clear as Riedel crystal. I opened a Weihenstephaner Helles and compared mine side-by-side. They were twin brothers of different mothers. Unfortunately for my entry, beauty was only skin deep. The flavors and aroma of my beer had long ago faded. But the appearance! If only my beer had looked that good, but tasted like the Weihenstephaner.

I never filter my beers, not even Kolsch which must be filtered to be served in Koln, usually letting time and temperature do the clearing. I'll admit to using Whirlfloc sparingly on the hot side and Biofine judiciously on the cold side for some beers that I want to be exceptionally bright. But generally I try to practice a virtue I usually lack: patience, sweet patience.

 

[Broothru]

For sure, we've got a lot of even stupidier trends coming ahead.
I promise you: in our lifetime we'll see a trend for SLIMY beers.

Hipsters (or what that kind of folks would be called then) would scoop and slurp their bioengineered beery blobs from soft silicone chalices.
Old codgers will be avoiding entering pubs to not throw up at seeing that.

Ugh! That sounds worse than Jello Shots. BTW, is that still a thing? Sometimes I grieve for what this world is becoming. (sigh...)