Hop leaves getting very full of holes

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Rundownhouse

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Can someone tell me what's going on? The plant is a 2nd year Cenntennial. I initially trained 4 bines and pruned the rest back. The started on one of the bines but now seems to be spreading to the rest.

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And here's one of a leaf that is ok for now, but has these lighter spots.

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Get a pouch of tobacco and boil it in 1 gallon of water.

Strain that into a sprayer with 1/4 cup listerene.

Spray on once a week in the evening after sun has mostly gone.

Bugs.
 
Hmm, I looked pretty carefully for bugs and didn't see any, but that's been during the day. Maybe I'll run out there after sunset tonight and look, haven't done that.
 
Lol, it is nice to identify, but see the holes? There ARE bugs.

Tobacco is the best "organic" pesticide I have found.
 
I would have put something like that in the title but thought it best to stick with something more searchable in case others have the same thing. :eek:
 
I have same situation, but do not see bugs--during the day. I'll try to sneak up on "them" at night with a flashlight.
 
cheezydemon3 said:
Lol, it is nice to identify, but see the holes? There ARE bugs.

Tobacco is the best "organic" pesticide I have found.
Click to expand...

I know I am going to sound like Chicken Little, but it is incredibly reckless to encourage this kind of behaviour. Seriously, this stuff (nicotine) can KILL you!!! I know the chance is extremely small, but can you imagine someone dying because they spilled a bucket of nicotine laden water on themselves!!! The EPA states that 40-60mg (0.04-0.06g) can have a 50% chance of KILLING someone!! Seriously, a few holes in your hop leaves are not worth even a 0.001% chance of dying!

When you smoke a cigarette, only a small percentage (~12%) of the nicotine gets into your system, so 40-60mg would mean several dozen at one time. On the other hand, when you boil yourself up some toxic nicotine soup, who knows how much is in the water? I know I would not want to even guess how much was extracted!

NOTE: Due to toxicity issues, and farmers realizing the don't want to die, the EPA has removed all registration of nicotine as an insecticide, and it will be illegal to apply in any form after next year. It has been illegal to apply to food crops since the 1990's.

http://www.epa.gov/oppsrrd1/REDs/nicotine_red.pdf

PS: +1 to it being japanese beetles
 
theredben said:
I know I am going to sound like Chicken Little, but it is incredibly reckless to encourage this kind of behaviour. Seriously, this stuff (nicotine) can KILL you!!! I know the chance is extremely small, but can you imagine someone dying because they spilled a bucket of nicotine laden water on themselves!!! The EPA states that 40-60mg (0.04-0.06g) can have a 50% chance of KILLING someone!! Seriously, a few holes in your hop leaves are not worth even a 0.001% chance of dying!

When you smoke a cigarette, only a small percentage (~12%) of the nicotine gets into your system, so 40-60mg would mean several dozen at one time. On the other hand, when you boil yourself up some toxic nicotine soup, who knows how much is in the water? I know I would not want to even guess how much was extracted!

NOTE: Due to toxicity issues, and farmers realizing the don't want to die, the EPA has removed all registration of nicotine as an insecticide, and it will be illegal to apply in any form after next year. It has been illegal to apply to food crops since the 1990's.

http://www.epa.gov/oppsrrd1/REDs/nicotine_red.pdf

PS: +1 to it being japanese beetles
Click to expand...

easy!lol.

I doubt if you made that up, so I thank you for sharing!
 
theredben said:
I know I am going to sound like Chicken Little, but it is incredibly reckless to encourage this kind of behaviour. Seriously, this stuff (nicotine) can KILL you!!! I know the chance is extremely small, but can you imagine someone dying because they spilled a bucket of nicotine laden water on themselves!!! The EPA states that 40-60mg (0.04-0.06g) can have a 50% chance of KILLING someone!! Seriously, a few holes in your hop leaves are not worth even a 0.001% chance of dying!

When you smoke a cigarette, only a small percentage (~12%) of the nicotine gets into your system, so 40-60mg would mean several dozen at one time. On the other hand, when you boil yourself up some toxic nicotine soup, who knows how much is in the water? I know I would not want to even guess how much was extracted!

NOTE: Due to toxicity issues, and farmers realizing the don't want to die, the EPA has removed all registration of nicotine as an insecticide, and it will be illegal to apply in any form after next year. It has been illegal to apply to food crops since the 1990's.

http://www.epa.gov/oppsrrd1/REDs/nicotine_red.pdf

PS: +1 to it being japanese beetles
Click to expand...

Settle down Francis, you've got your facts but like a PETA activist your delivery is seriously over emphasized. YES. 40-60mg of Nicotine is deadly

IN OUR BLOODSTREAM.

No-one was suggesting the guy drink the chaw soup. mkay?

OP, for the record, all it takes to make a bug deadly nico-coction is a ashtray full of butts and a milk jug full of water. Combine the two and let it sit until the water looks like tea.

Spray the plants with that.
 
As I mentioned in another thread, lethality to humans aside, nicotine-based insecticides are notoriously deadly to all beneficial insects that will otherwise help your garden. Neonicotinoid insecticides are largely linked to colony collapse disorder in honeybees. If you kill ladybugs off with the spray for instane you will most likely have an influx in aphids which they control. Then you will have to keep applying the pesticides!

I would encourage everyone to find the exact pest and treat for it rather than nuking all of them.
 
Guess I thought the spray was a deterrant? Made it smell un-appetizing?

Since you plan to brew with the hops, I guess find something else.

People put tobacco in their freaking mouths and don't just keel over (although granted it is a poor health choice) didn't realize it was so bad.
 
cheezydemon3 said:
Guess I thought the spray was a deterrant? Made it smell un-appetizing?

Since you plan to brew with the hops, I guess find something else.

People put tobacco in their freaking mouths and don't just keel over (although granted it is a poor health choice) didn't realize it was so bad.
Click to expand...

It is. But the levels are much, much lower. And it's not so much the low doses of the nicotine from tobacco as it is the results of the curing process.

However, you do make a good point. I would NOT use a nicotine based pesticide on flowering hops.
 
cheezydemon3 said:
What is the next best thing? Buying ladybugs?

I just imagine them all flying away.
Click to expand...

nematodes, ladybugs, mantis larvae, etc....

Yeah. Once all the food is gone they disappear. Eco friendly options are nice. Just not too effective. But, at least we aren't dealing with acres of swiss cheesed leaves.
 
I was going to post on the absolutely overblown nicotine post, but I have been beaten to it.

You won't kill all your ladybugs if you use it, it can work as a deterrent too. If you keep it on the leaves of your plants. It is not as persistent as synthetic pesticides either.

I would tend to agree that you focus on your particular threat. However for an all around organic pesticide, try these mixes:

1 bulb garlic
1 onion
1 Tablespoon cayenne powder
1 Tablespoon liquid dish soap
1 quart water

1/2 cup chopped hot peppers
2 Tablespoons soap
2 cups water


I use these in my garden, and they are effective. In controlled areas I use diatomaceous earth.

You can also use a natural fertilizer that will repel dear and is 6-2-0 in Malorganite. It will repel a lot of other animals as well (not insects). Some have qualms about using it because it is "human" matter. (Derived from waste products). However it is organic, and the phosphorous from it will take to the roots about 85% more effectively and more efficiently than other fertilizers given the proper conditions (it is also breaks down over time, making it time released)

Tobacco is an ages old remedy a lot of my friends used on their small farms. It works quite well, but will kill some beneficial (not all) insects as well. Diatomaceous earth kills virtually every insect and helpful worms, but I love it in a controlled area, because no resistances can ever build up and it is a mechanical killer. I have pits of worms to get worm castings from.
 
GilaMinumBeer said:
nematodes, ladybugs, mantis larvae, etc....

Yeah. Once all the food is gone they disappear. Eco friendly options are nice. Just not too effective. But, at least we aren't dealing with acres of swiss cheesed leaves.
Click to expand...

Keep the predators near with companion plantings. I've not had to spray anything for bug infestations in 5 years (aside from a little sluggo near the lettuce and brassicas... because my village won't let me have chickens to control the bastards)... keep the predators nearby and you'll be fine.

But yes, buying and releasing something will have a limited effect, if any.
 
Randar said:
Keep the predators near with companion plantings. I've not had to spray anything for bug infestations in 5 years (aside from a little sluggo near the lettuce and brassicas... because my village won't let me have chickens to control the bastards)... keep the predators nearby and you'll be fine.

But yes, buying and releasing something will have a limited effect, if any.
Click to expand...

What do you "companion" plant?
 
cheezydemon3 said:
What do you "companion" plant?
Click to expand...

Everything I can!

This spreadsheet was compiled by another HBT member and myself...
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0Aitc3OdxDO-WcHBCTExuaVBqTTZKc1l3TnJlTmhZVXc#gid=0

I plant peas and beans within yards of the hops, plant various food crops among the crowns, and less than 30 feet away have large flower and herb beds that include bee balm, aster, daisies, yarrow, lavender, dill, black-eyed susans, echinacea, and a bunch of others I can't come up with off the top of my head.

The peas in the spring help bring in the lady bugs but these plantings hold onto the lady bugs, hoverflies, predatory wasps, praying mantis, etc all season.

The only thing I can't really control is Japanese beetles. Luckily, they vastly prefer the rose bushes and pole beans to the hops, so I don't have to take any real action against them if I sort of allow the sacrificial rose/beans to be feasted upon and I go around the garden periodically knocking them off into a tupperware of soapy water.
 
I bought an organic pesticide that the LHBS (which is also a garden supply center) recommended. Those guys usually know their stuff. First application will be tonight.
 
Just to clarify, since they're getting some bad press...

Ladybugs are territorial. If you bring them in and they have food to eat, the majority will stay put and set up residence long term. However, as with any creature, if the food runs out they'll go elsewhere. I think mantis are the same, but I'm not 100% sure.
 
wrench said:
Just to clarify, since they're getting some bad press...

Ladybugs are territorial. If you bring them in and they have food to eat, the majority will stay put and set up residence long term. However, as with any creature, if the food runs out they'll go elsewhere. I think mantis are the same, but I'm not 100% sure.
Click to expand...

They are.

Everything has gotta eat.
 
Good info. I merely said that I "imagined" them all flying away. I figure the word "imagined" implied no actual knowledge.;)
 
Update: After one application of pesticide, no noticeable improvement. Today I saw a couple very small, red spiders. One had a web underneath a leaf and I watched it eat a small gnat/fly. I also saw a bunch of ants on one leaf, and a weird little bug that looked almost like a hermit crab, the kind with a spiral shell on its back, only smaller.

More pesticide coming sunset tonight.
 
Rundownhouse said:
Update: After one application of pesticide, no noticeable improvement. Today I saw a couple very small, red spiders. One had a web underneath a leaf and I watched it eat a small gnat/fly. I also saw a bunch of ants on one leaf, and a weird little bug that looked almost like a hermit crab, the kind with a spiral shell on its back, only smaller.

More pesticide coming sunset tonight.
Click to expand...

Google "Red Spider Mites", these are bad for hops.

Google "Aphid Wolf" or "Aphid Lion". Note the ones who attach "trash" to their backs (people say they look like Hermit Crabs). These are good for hops. Bad for ants, aphids, mites, ....
 
Just a few points on nicotine:

It's a great example of how the term "organic" tells you nothing about the actual substance you're using. Nicotine, organic though it may be, is toxic, environmentally damaging stuff. (Most "inorganic" fertilizers, on the other hand, are the purified salts of life.)

That being said, anybody should be able to apply nicotine and be safe, using reasonable precautions. Wear long sleeves and gloves. Wear a face mask if you're using anything bigger than a spray bottle to apply. If you spill it on yourself, go take a shower.

As for the selectivity of nicotine, it is true that it, and many pesticides, kill beneficial insects in addition to the bugs you don't want. The same is true of prescription antibiotics -- they kill your infection and many of the bacteria your gut needs to be healthy. Yet you'd be quite foolish to decline a round of amoxicillin if you have a raging sinus infection.

The same holds true if you want to save your plants. You may have some problems down the road as the local ecosystem adapts to the absence of beneficial insects. You'll also get diarrhea if you take antibiotics. But if you decide the infestation is bad enough, don't let that side affect discourage you from saving your plants.
 
drummstikk said:
Just a few points on nicotine:

It's a great example of how the term "organic" tells you nothing about the actual substance you're using. Nicotine, organic though it may be, is toxic, environmentally damaging stuff. (Most "inorganic" fertilizers, on the other hand, are the purified salts of life.)

That being said, anybody should be able to apply nicotine and be safe, using reasonable precautions. Wear long sleeves and gloves. Wear a face mask if you're using anything bigger than a spray bottle to apply. If you spill it on yourself, go take a shower.

As for the selectivity of nicotine, it is true that it, and many pesticides, kill beneficial insects in addition to the bugs you don't want. The same is true of prescription antibiotics -- they kill your infection and many of the bacteria your gut needs to be healthy. Yet you'd be quite foolish to decline a round of amoxicillin if you have a raging sinus infection.

The same holds true if you want to save your plants. You may have some problems down the road as the local ecosystem adapts to the absence of beneficial insects. You'll also get diarrhea if you take antibiotics. But if you decide the infestation is bad enough, don't let that side affect discourage you from saving your plants.
Click to expand...

Poppycock, a load of it. Nicotine is poisonous in vast amounts that you are nowhere near in danger of when using it as an insecticide. It has been used such for ages in the past, and it works well. If anything wear sleeves to prevent stains and unwanted odors, but things espoused such as this are just ill-informed.

The good part of the post is that, you should try to be selective if possible instead of "nuking".

Health aspects, way overblown.. A bunch of meta-analysis studies that don't comport with observation or experience. People who make money off of fear mongering. I've picked tobacco for years, known people that have, and been all around it. It is a wonderful natural substance that has many beneficial uses.

By the way Gaseous Chlorine, Sodium, Phosphorous, Nitrogen are also deadly in concentrated amounts, your just never going to see those amounts.

You could dilute spit, whenever I have used tobacco, I have gotten it fresh from a farmer and made a solution.
 
dbhokie said:
Poppycock, a load of it. Nicotine is poisonous in vast amounts that you are nowhere near in danger of when using it as an insecticide.
Click to expand...

I think we agree that it's safe to use nicotine in the garden. I was arguing to just put on some long sleeves and go for it, which I think you also agreed with. Why poppycock?

dbhokie said:
The good part of the post is that, you should try to be selective if possible instead of "nuking".
Click to expand...

This is actually the part we disagree on. I was writing in favor of "nuking", arguing that sometimes it's okay to do so, just like it's sometimes okay to "nuke" your gut microflora with an antibiotic when you have a severe problem.
 
dbhokie said:
By the way Gaseous Chlorine, Sodium, Phosphorous, Nitrogen are also deadly in concentrated amounts, your just never going to see those amounts.
Click to expand...

I've also heard that Dihydrogen Monoxide can be deadly when inhaled. Lots of people have suffered, mostly in the summer months but occasionally in their own bathrooms.

Ghastly. Why has no one banned this particularly deadly substance?
 
GilaMinumBeer said:
I've also heard that Dihydrogen Monoxide can be deadly when inhaled. Lots of people have suffered, mostly in the summer months but occasionally in their own bathrooms.

Ghastly. Why has no one banned this particularly deadly substance?
Click to expand...

This is a real issue. Also causes all kinds of environmental problems - it's single biggest cause of loss of arable soil. Not sure why the Occupy movement doesn't protest this stuff.
 

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