Homemade PBW Recipe

[eric19312]

Hey thread...anybody got a recipe for alkaline brewery wash from craftmeister?

Craft Meister Alkaline Brewery Wash | MoreBeer

Craft Meister Alkaline Brewery Wash a preferred cleaner for cleaning brewing equipment. Free shipping over $59.

www.morebeer.com

This stuff claims to work in cold water which would open up some nice options for CIP. I do 135F PBW now in my fermentor but cant go hotter than that due to pump limit. Would be super happy if this stuff worked as well as that at 100-120.

 

[soccerdad]

Add some of AL Kaline's ashes to the PBW recipe. No?

 

[Bigdaddyale]

Hey thread...anybody got a recipe for alkaline brewery wash from craftmeister?

Craft Meister Alkaline Brewery Wash | MoreBeer

Craft Meister Alkaline Brewery Wash a preferred cleaner for cleaning brewing equipment. Free shipping over $59.

www.morebeer.com

This stuff claims to work in cold water which would open up some nice options for CIP. I do 135F PBW now in my fermentor but cant go hotter than that due to pump limit. Would be super happy if this stuff worked as well as that at 100-120.

I saw one out there on the web but can't remember where. Google might be your friend. Sorry

 

[Bilsch]

It's just PBW without the percarbonate.

 

[IslandLizard]

It's just PBW without the percarbonate.

Apparently!
Although I doubt their claim that it's the "oxygen" component that causes the white precipitate. They simply use cheap and cheerful common washing soda (Sodium Carbonate) instead of oxygen containing Percarbonate.

From https://www.morebeer.com/images/file.php?file_id=5230:

SECTION 3 COMPOSITION/INFORMATION ON INGREDIENTS:
Sodium Carbonate 50-65%
Sodium Metasilicate 30-40%
Sodium Sesquicarbonate ≤ 5%

Hey thread...anybody got a recipe for alkaline brewery wash from craftmeister?

There ya go! ^^

 

[jimdkc]

Keep in mind that Material Safety Data Sheets do not provide the "recipe" for anything. They only list the potentially hazardous components!

 

[eric19312]

Keep in mind that Material Safety Data Sheets do not provide the "recipe" for anything. They only list the potentially hazardous components!

Agreed and the craftmeister SDS is especially vague and claiming trade secret protection for

Apparently!
Although I doubt their claim that it's the "oxygen" component that causes the white precipitate. They simply use cheap and cheerful common washing soda (Sodium Carbonate) instead of oxygen containing Percarbonate.

From https://www.morebeer.com/images/file.php?file_id=5230:

SECTION 3 COMPOSITION/INFORMATION ON INGREDIENTS:
Sodium Carbonate 50-65%
Sodium Metasilicate 30-40%
Sodium Sesquicarbonate ≤ 5%


There ya go! ^^

I think the Morebeer version is wrong. Here is the manufacturer's version

https://www.nationalchemicals.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/05/SDS-Craft_Meister_Alkaline_Brewery_Wash_10.17.pdf

Dangerous Components:
Sodium carbonate 40-60%
Disodium Metasilicate 25-50%
Trisodium Orthophosphate ≤2.5%
But that is only the listing of compounds that are considered dangerous based on occupational exposure limits. Other ingredients are not listed in this section.

However deeper in the MSDS in the NJ/PA right to know lists formula also includes:
Tetrasodium Pyrophosphate
Pentasodium triphosphate
Sodium Hexametaphosphate

That doesn't preclude the formula including yet other products that are not considered sufficiently dangerous to list in first part or have been identified by state or other regulatory bodies as needing to be listed.

The SDS also mentions trade secret protection of the formula:
The exact percentages of the ingredients of this mixture are considered to be proprietary and are withheld in accordance with the provisions of paragraph (i) of §1910.1200 of 29 CFR 1910.1200 Trade Secrets.

 

[jimdkc]

The MoreBeer version is 2 years older. Product formulations change... reporting requirements change... etc...

 

[Bilsch]

There is no magic missing ingredient. Just use the SDS basic formula and you will see it works the same.

 

[bovine_OB]

How many rinses should a guy do after he runs this solution through the brewery plumbing? Just heat some clean water up to 180 and rinse the chiller and herms for a few minutes?

 

[renstyle]

In all fairness, my homemade PBW is very simple:

70% Oxiclean Free
30% TSP/90
1/4 tsp of Red Devil (drain opener) granules per 1 gallon. (optional)

...recirculate 2-3 gallons of near boiling hot "homemade 70/30" PBW (with some lye added) from my boil kettle, through the pump, hoses and plate chiller, back through the whirlpool port, for a few hours.

I use 2 Tablespoons per gallon, that's strong!

Many thanks to @IslandLizard for the all the info mashed up in the above quote!

I sent this to friends that were looking to make up some DIY themselves, and figured may as well leave it here in combined form for others that are searching for similar (and may not wish to sift thru 22+ pages).

Much appreciated!

 

[IslandLizard]

Many thanks to @IslandLizard for the all the info mashed up in the above quote!

I sent this to friends that were looking to make up some DIY themselves, and figured may as well leave it here in combined form for others that are searching for similar (and may not wish to sift thru 22+ pages).

Much appreciated!

Glad you found it and putting it to good use! Spread the wealth of knowledge.

Make sure to store the raw ingredients and mixture dry, using well sealing containers.
And keep in a safe place, away from kids and others not familiar with its use and protection from skin, eyes, etc.

 

[renstyle]

Glad you found it and putting it to good use! Spread the wealth of knowledge.

Make sure to store the raw ingredients and mixture dry, using well sealing containers.
And keep in a safe place, away from kids and others not familiar with its use and protection from skin, eyes, etc.

I followed the recommendation of others, using the scoop that comes with the Oxy...

7 scoops of Oxy to 3 scoops of TSP/90, did this twice and have enuf DIY for several batches.

I leave the rest of the base material in freezer bags, stored in their original containers.

I personally haven't tried the lye addition myself yet, but will keep it in mind should it be necessary.

Thanks again, you along with others in this thread just saved myself and several friends dozens of $$$.

 

[2hennepin6]

I am going to try this recipe with the spec'd 7th Generation dishwasher powder. I couldn't get TSP/90 so I am going to use tsp* from lundmark wax(a non-phosphate tsp of the same base as tsp/90- sodium metasilicate pentahydrate) and Ecos Oxo Brite free and clear (sodium carbonate peroxide and sodium carbonate). Feeling a little more Jesse than Walter as far as the quality of my meth, er, I mean DIY PBW.

 

[DuncB]

My cook up based on the info in this thread was 65% Sodium Percarbonate, 30% Sodium Metasilicate, 5% EDTA.

Managed to source all of these from a swimming pool chemical suppliers. I found better to take these proportions out of the pure quantities than mix in bulk because I wasn't convinced about even mix and settling given the difference in particle size and density.
I'm using 11g / litre seems to work well.
Hopefully someone will correct me if this is way off whack or if I should add something else.
Can't get that 7th gen or TSP/90 or it's substitute here.

 

[Horseflesh]

Even with a simplified 70/30 sodium percarbonate/sodium metasilicate mix I’ve had good results—good enough I don’t miss the real thing. I’ll look for EDTA next time I need to mix a batch, though.

 

[IslandLizard]

Can't get that 7th gen or TSP/90 or it's substitute here.

TSP/90 = Sodium Metasilicate
It's been sold as a substitute for TSP, which was banned for many years to reduce phosphorus in effluent. Chemically they are totally different products, but both are strong alkali, delivering a very high pH when dissolved.

 

[soccerdad]

One of the many ways my children try to gaslight me. I left my homemade PBW next to the kitchen sink when the wife and I went to LA and TX for a week. It is in a container clearly marked as homemade PBW. It's gone. The son who lives here and minded the dog and chickens knows nothing. Nor does his girlfriend who cooked with him a few times in said kitchen. The daughter who came by to help clean out the fridge never saw it. I will find it one day tucked in the back of a closet - or in a garden shed like I found my wallet once.

 

[DuncB]

@soccerdad
Even those fake white powders can be valuable then!

 

[2hennepin6]

Cooked up my mix (7th Gen, sod. Metasilicate, oxyclean). I ended up with 13.3 lbs. Which came to about 3.50 per lb. I didn't use up all the oxy clean or 7th Gen. so really a bit cheaper. And as much as I like my local co-op, the 7th Gen. was way more than it should have been.

I bet it could have come out under 3/lb.

Most importantly I cleaned up the bottom of my boiing keggle really nicely.

 

[DuncB]

Just got given a CIP ball so I'll be using a bit less of my mix for cleaning duties now. But won't convert to the original that's for sure.

 

[snookluvr]

https://ace.infotrac.net/getmsds.aspx?sku=12592

The Lundmark TSP alternate seems to be the only one available at the hardware store now. The SDS sheet states that it is 58% sodium metasilicate pentathydrate and 42% water?? Am I interpreting this correctly? Do I need to add more because it is not anhydrous??

 

[2hennepin6]

I used the same stuff (Lundmark) and followed the recipe. Works well. No direct comparison to the real thing. I think TSP/90 is not anhydrous either but again not sure about the real TSP.

 

[2hennepin6]

Not real TSP I mean what the real PBW uses.

 

[snookluvr]

On second look both Red Devil and Lundmark are pentahydrate, 5 H2O.....probably the same thing. Will use it the same way as Red Devil. Thanks for the info!

 

[snookluvr]

I just picked up the Lundmark product. They cut the size down from 64oz to 62oz. That's crazy to make a few cents more on the sale by reducing the qty. by 2 oz!!

 

[snookluvr]

I'm going to throw a few things out for discussion to see what you guys think:

It appears that sodium percarbonate is one of the more important ingredients in the PBW as it is an oxygen cleaner. From what I can determine, Oxyclean seems to have more sodium carbonate than sodium percarbonate. I'll attach a SDS sheet for Oxyclean Versatile FYI.

Sodium percarbonate is a bit more expensive than I thought for smaller quantities, like less than 2lb. After that, the price seems to be more reasonable.

I found a procedure to determine the amount of sodium percarbonate in an oxygen cleaner (assuming there are not a bunch of additives?). It would be interesting to run this experiment to to see how much percarbonate is in Oxyclean or any other oxygen cleaner. I have about 4 lb of old sodium percarbonate in the garage that I've had for years. Don't think it is any good but would be interested to know. You basically weigh a sample, then heat it to drive off the peroxide, then weigh it again to determine the weight of peroxide driven off. It's basically just a high school chemistry experiment, but I'm the nerdy type that just might do it.

I think we need to store this stuff in a sealed bag to keep out moisture or it will lose its strength.

https://www.ahprofessional.com/_downloads/sds/SDS%20OxiClean%20Versatile%20Stain%20Remover.pdf

http://www.umich.edu/~chemstu/content_weeks/F_06_Week11/pics_notes/Bracken_JCE_2005_p762_oxyclean.pdf

 

[DuncB]

Don't think I'd want to do that over a naked flame, but as I've got neat percarbonate I don't think I need to worry.

 

[WhoDatDad78]

So this TsP\90 is trisodium phosphate? I found some at Lowes made by Savogran.

 

[soccerdad]

It's a long story. Read back in the thread and it's explained. TSP90 has no phosphate and was marketed to replace TSP for those who did not want to pollute using phosphates. Both work in a homemade PBW application.

 

[marc1]

So this TsP\90 is trisodium phosphate? I found some at Lowes made by Savogran.

TSP/90 is imitation trisodium phosphate, sodium metasilicate

 

[WhoDatDad78]

Ok, thanks. I hadn't seen the earlier post. So basically it's been determined that the oxiclean free @70% and the tsp/90 from red devil or lundmark @30% is all that's needed, 7th gen dishwashing granules aren't needed. Correct?

 

[soccerdad]

Correct

 

[WhoDatDad78]

Has anyone ever used this in place of the Oxiclean free? I can't seem to find it, but they do have the BIZ brand.

 

[soccerdad]

The BIZ appears to be scented. That's a drawback. Are you in the US? Is this a store buy? An Amazon buy?

 

[Falstaff]

Oxi Free, I think is what I use. Always check the back for any scent additives. You don't want to be staring at a glass of no-head beer and wondering if you didn't rinse well enough to get those additives out. PBW has something extra in it I cant remember, but oxi Free works great for me.

 

[DuncB]

You can add some EDTA into the recipe as well about 5%, I got mine from a swimming pool and household chemicals supplies shop.

 

[WhoDatDad78]

Looks like ALL oxi laundry booster will work too. Only 2 ingredients.

 

[Deadalus]

View attachment 740100 View attachment 740101
Looks like ALL oxi laundry booster will work too. Only 2 ingredients.

I use All in mine. I also use the TSP-PF from Savogran (green box) from Lowes at 70/30 mix.

I always give the container a good shake before using as the ingredients are somewhat different grain sizes and tend to separate.

 

[jtratcliff]

View attachment 740100 View attachment 740101
Looks like ALL oxi laundry booster will work too. Only 2 ingredients.

I use the Kroger branded one: "Kroger® Multi-Purpose Oxygen Cleaner"

It appears to be mostly Sodium Percarbonate and Salt:

https://www.kroger.com/CleaningProductRightToKnow/0001111085825ING.pdf

It's also typically under $4 for a 3lb tub...