Homemade PBW Recipe

[Bilsch]

I've noticed that the metasilicate is quite hygroscopic and I have to store it with molecular sieve dry packs to keep it a powder. Anyway it is possible that the moisture that came with that started the decomposition of the percarbonate to the carbonate and peroxide. Then the peroxide decomposes into oxygen and water but this rxn gives off considerable heat. Your escaping cloud was most likely O2.

 

[TexasWine]

I've noticed that the metasilicate is quite hygroscopic and I have to store it with molecular sieve dry packs to keep it a powder. Anyway it is possible that the moisture that came with that started the decomposition of the percarbonate to the carbonate and peroxide. Then the peroxide decomposes into oxygen and water but this rxn gives off considerable heat. Your escaping cloud was most likely O2.

I've thought about that, but the thing is the metasilicate was stored in a bag that was simply folded over and taped shut. I had been storing it in my garage until I mixed it, at which point I brought it into my temp controlled pantry. I would have thought it would have been completely exposed to as much moisture as possible sitting in the garage for two summer months in Houston.

 

[S-Met]

Spent a great deal of time wearing out my thumbs typing a response to your post above. Unfortunately the app crashed, so here goes round two.

Unfortunately, yes, it is too late. I've already purchased all the ingredients and mixed them.

But a curious thing happened when I mixed them all. I used a ratio of 2.5:1 percarbonate: metasilicate, along with about 1% EDTA. Put it all in an old fermentation bucket, put the lid on, and rolled it around on the floor to mix it up. Then I put it in a dog food container with a loose fitting lid. The next morning I woke up to an angry, gurgling mess that spewed a white vapor cloud at me when I opened the lid of the container. The container was hot to the touch as well. It was having some sort of runaway chemical reaction.

So I did what seemed reasonable at the time. I donned my fire retardant overalls, put on my chemical resistant goggles, slipped on my silicone gloves, and lugged it down the stairs to the driveway. There, from a safe distance, I shot it with the water hose and filled it with water.

So for all you chemistry nerds out there, any suspects as to what might have happened? I just flushed a whole bunch of money down the drain.

Not 100% on this response, but since you used Disodium EDTA wich is intended for acidic conditions, my assumption is that it reacted with what moisture was in the air and the basic solution began to react to equilibrium.

I haven't done the chemical equation balancing, but probably just O2 and CO2 gas provide you only added the ingredients that you mentioned. Sometimes humidity is enough to start the reaction.

 

[TexasWine]

Not 100% on this response, but since you used Disodium EDTA wich is intended for acidic conditions, my assumption is that it reacted with what moisture was in the air and the basic solution began to react to equilibrium.

I haven't done the chemical equation balancing, but probably just O2 and CO2 gas provide you only added the ingredients that you mentioned. Sometimes humidity is enough to start the reaction.

So how does 5 Star keep it from doing what mine did?

 

[Stealthcruiser]

Not a clue on the stability question..........I use it in a modified dishwasher, and add separately...........The two compartments in the door........One looks about 70%, the other about 30%, were you to look @ the whole mass of product.

 

[S-Met]

Again, only my chem background from 17 years ago:

Using Tetrasodium EDTA is basic and should not react when mixed as dry ingredients to the other basic ingredients.

I haven't made the blend yet so I cannot promise. But was going to order the base chemicals and blend. Currently, I use Oxiclean for moderate-heavy cleaning. For heavy cleaning, I mix oxiclean and tsp @ 4:1 ratio.

And for your readng pleasure, I reference this article: https://www.essind.com/carpet-care/the-chemistry-of-cleaning/#Chelating

 

[TexasWine]

Again, only my chem background from 17 years ago:

Using Tetrasodium EDTA is basic and should not react when mixed as dry ingredients to the other basic ingredients.

I haven't made the blend yet so I cannot promise. But was going to order the base chemicals and blend. Currently, I use Oxiclean for moderate-heavy cleaning. For heavy cleaning, I mix oxiclean and tsp @ 4:1 ratio.

And for your readng pleasure, I reference this article: https://www.essind.com/carpet-care/the-chemistry-of-cleaning/#Chelating

Let us know how it turns out. I've got the ingredients added to my cart, again, but with the exception of tetrasodium EDTA instead of the disodium. If you have positive results, I'll still be at $100 for 36 lb, $2.78/lb, with some leftover EDTA.

 

[Bilsch]

So how does 5 Star keep it from doing what mine did?

Could be as simple as specifying low moisture content in the feed stock but it's just a guess.

 

[Steve Ocker]

Exactly! Just buy a 96 oz tub of Sun Oxygen Cleaner, a 4 lb bag of Red Devil TSP/90, and a 45 oz box of 7th Generation Dish-washing Detergent, and mix them together in a bucket. You can even use the scoop that comes with the Sun Oxygen Cleaner!

Is this still the recipe for the brewery wash? Thanks!

 

[tld6008]

Is this still the recipe for the brewery wash? Thanks!

Its one of them. Many use the first two items in a 70/30 by weight ratio. That's what I do and its works very well. Although if I run across the 3rd item I will try that addition next time I need to mix a batch.

 

[S-Met]

Nothing to try this on besides my moka-pot. Usually the top cleans well, but the bottom even with a scrubby it doesn't shine. Problem resolved with the newest recipe. Percentages are approx by weight.

73% oxiclean
24% tsp
3% tetrasodium EDTA

Boiled a pot of tap water carefully submerged the coffee pot and let it sit until I could handle it, between 90-120 min (working on other project).

Top was only rinsed, base got a mild scrub with the back scrubber side of a non-scratch sponge.

 

[divrack]

That's a good question, my tap water is fairly soft. So YMMV, although I've not seen any reports of homemade PBW floccing out CaCO3 badly in hard water, and even if it did, I doubt it would cause any trouble. There's such an excess of CO3-- in that solution. It's very alkaline with a pH of around 12.

You can source EDTA, you only need a small amount, like 2% or so for hard water. I found this thread on various cleaner actions compared including the real PBW and the homemade version (very qualitatively). Mind you, the real PBW uses 100% Percarbonate, not cut with washing soda as most Oxiclean-like products are. 100% Percarbonate can be sourced too, it's really not that expensive.

Some good brushing helps when cleaning soiled surfaces...

I've covered my peeves with 7th Gen in this thread before. I don't get why adding mostly salt (NaCL) and a little citric acid would make a difference. I think the promise is that the Citrate ion can sequester, like EDTA, which it does not.

hi. in follow up for us uk people that dont get the branded stuff ive found good price for sodium percarbonate and metasilicate (which i understand is not tsp and is preferable?) but the only version of the metasilicate is the pentahydrate version, im guessing that as its all going into a solution anyway it wouldnt need to be the anhydrous form? but you seem like you have a fresher head of chemistry than i do. im assuming that the stuff listed in america is also pentahydrate, and that the anhydrous stuff would absorb moisture and become a hydrate anyway, but im just guessing and assuming here as i dont know nothin about nothin

 

[TexasWine]

Nothing to try this on besides my moka-pot. Usually the top cleans well, but the bottom even with a scrubby it doesn't shine. Problem resolved with the newest recipe. Percentages are approx by weight.

73% oxiclean
24% tsp
3% tetrasodium EDTA

Boiled a pot of tap water carefully submerged the coffee pot and let it sit until I could handle it, between 90-120 min (working on other project).

Top was only rinsed, base got a mild scrub with the back scrubber side of a non-scratch sponge.View attachment 583302View attachment 583303

Success!

Were you able to test the base chemicals we discussed up thread?

 

[IslandLizard]

hi. in follow up for us uk people that dont get the branded stuff ive found good price for sodium percarbonate and metasilicate (which i understand is not tsp and is preferable?) but the only version of the metasilicate is the pentahydrate version, im guessing that as its all going into a solution anyway it wouldnt need to be the anhydrous form? but you seem like you have a fresher head of chemistry than i do. im assuming that the stuff listed in america is also pentahydrate, and that the anhydrous stuff would absorb moisture and become a hydrate anyway, but im just guessing and assuming here as i dont know nothin about nothin

Either would work, real TSP or metasilicate (TSP substitute). I agree, metasilicate seems to be preferred over real TSP, not sure why, aside from environmental concerns.

The pentahydrate is the most commonly available form, although my (now empty) container doesn't list it as such. I think real PBW also uses the pentahydrate, so the 30% ratio of pentahydrate should be correct. Get whatever has the best price or is easiest obtainable.
Store in an airtight container, the mixture is still hygroscopic.

This MSDS sheet lists Sodium Carbonate at 20-30%, and Percarbonate at <25%. Never seen it specced out before like that. It's from 2009, and for a European company. Things may have changed since.

 

[jtratcliff]

The Sodium metasilicate (TSP90) is what's actually in PBW... Serves the same purpose as regular TSP and probably is used instead of TSP for same reason laundry detergents switched to phosphate-free ... But either should work.

A few folks upthread have reported success w/ regular TSP

 

[S-Met]

Success!

Were you able to test the base chemicals we discussed up thread?

I just received the EDTA yesterday. Only mixed in solution. I weighed out enough proportions for a 3gal mix. Just wanted to see it in action. To be fair, I don't know that the EDTA made a difference, the oxi-tsp hot h2o did the heavy lifting.

Regarding a dry mix and stability: haven't mixed a bulk batch yet. I'll report back this week.

 

[divrack]

Either would work, real TSP or metasilicate (TSP substitute). I agree, metasilicate seems to be preferred over real TSP, not sure why, aside from environmental concerns.

The pentahydrate is the most commonly available form, although my (now empty) container doesn't list it as such. I think real PBW also uses the pentahydrate, so the 30% ratio of pentahydrate should be correct. Get whatever has the best price or is easiest obtainable.
Store in an airtight container, the mixture is still hygroscopic.

This MSDS sheet lists Sodium Carbonate at 20-30%, and Percarbonate at <25%. Never seen it specced out before like that. It's from 2009, and for a European company. Things may have changed since.

im sure you covered it earlier, but was your understanding that the percarbonate becomes sodium carbonate or contains sodium carbonate to some degree? hence using 65 percent percarbonate?

 

[IslandLizard]

im sure you covered it earlier, but was your understanding that the percarbonate becomes sodium carbonate or contains sodium carbonate to some degree? hence using 65 percent percarbonate?

From that MSDS it looks they use about half carbonate and half percarbonate, or a percarbonate source that's already mixed down with carbonate. That's news to me, as I'm sure I've seen specs that list just percarbonate (no carbonate) as one of the 3 main ingredients, the other 2 being metasilicate and chelators (e.g., EDTA)

When the percarbonate gets dissolved in water the peroxide splits off and creates O2, in a similar way as Hydrogen Peroxide releases O2. The carbonate (common washing soda) is left over. See this wiki.
If your source has a 40/60- to 70/30-some mixture of percarbonate/carbonate (or better) for the right price, compared to pure percarbonate, use it. Don't overthink it, they're just cleaners, precise dosage is not that important.

I feel the whole O2 action is much overrated, most home brewery equipment cleaning can be done with a carbonate/metasilicate mixture and a few hours soak, some heat, and/or the magic of a brush. That metasilicate component is a very good cleaner!
For that reason, I save my still clean PBW solutions and reuse them until they get grimey. The O2 has long gone by then.

 

[mpmccann]

Is this still the recipe for the brewery wash? Thanks!

This is how I made mine and I am still using it a year later. I am pretty sure I had to sub the Sun-Oxi for Oxi-Clean fresh scent. It works very well and the fresh scent doesn't seem to matter; "I remember being concerned about that". During brew day I mix up a 5 gal bucket of this home made PBW, and a 5 gal bucket of Star-San and use them to wash and sanitize all my equipment. Clean first with PBW, then rinse with water, and then sanitize with Star-San; the same way they wash stuff in a BAR environment using 3 sinks.

 

[snotster]

Got this in my email... it got my attention... Just wanted to clarify before splurging and converting myself to this.

Red Devil #0261 Tsp/90 Heavy Duty Cleaner 1 lb.
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B000LNTXIQ/?tag=skimlinks_replacement-20

OxiClean Versatile Stain Remover Free, 3 Lbs
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00MOJUJ92/?tag=skimlinks_replacement-20

70 (oxi)/30 (red) mix and good to go? Or... do i have the wrong stuff?
Cheers to all who put in their time and effort into this!

 

[S-Met]

I apologize for this, but:


You got it, the right stuff

 

[snotster]

I apologize for this, but:


You got it, the right stuff

HAHAHAHA.... oh man... that was quite a banger back in the day!

 

[divrack]

From that MSDS it looks they use about half carbonate and half percarbonate, or a percarbonate source that's already mixed down with carbonate. That's news to me, as I'm sure I've seen specs that list just percarbonate (no carbonate) as one of the 3 main ingredients, the other 2 being metasilicate and chelators (e.g., EDTA)

When the percarbonate gets dissolved in water the peroxide splits off and creates O2, in a similar way as Hydrogen Peroxide releases O2. The carbonate (common washing soda) is left over. See this wiki.
If your source has a 40/60- to 70/30-some mixture of percarbonate/carbonate (or better) for the right price, compared to pure percarbonate, use it. Don't overthink it, they're just cleaners, precise dosage is not that important.

I feel the whole O2 action is much overrated, most home brewery equipment cleaning can be done with a carbonate/metasilicate mixture and a few hours soak, some heat, and/or the magic of a brush. That metasilicate component is a very good cleaner!
For that reason, I save my still clean PBW solutions and reuse them until they get grimey. The O2 has long gone by then.

o2 sounds fresh wholesome and clean. what it actually does is another question but if yo see bubbles bubbling you assume something is working... much better than just boring soaking ... always struck me as a gimmick largely too. anyway im just gonna mix up some shizz and see what it does. anymore reading about chemicals on wiki and the black helicopters are going to start circling..

 

[S-Met]

o2 sounds fresh wholesome and clean. what it actually does is another question but if yo see bubbles bubbling you assume something is working... much better than just boring soaking ... always struck me as a gimmick largely too. anyway im just gonna mix up some shizz and see what it does. anymore reading about chemicals on wiki and the black helicopters are going to start circling..

O2 and Co2 are only important because of its source. You could attempt to add soap and an O2 stone but the clening action is not the same.

The O2 come from peroxide and sodium percarbonates (Na2H3CO6 when added to H2O breaks down to Na, CO2 and H2O2 which reacts to the "soil" in your containers. As it decomposes it creates heat and the peroxide (H2O2) which further decomposes to H2O and O2. Once the reaction is done, all that remains is any detergents, but the peroxides are gone. Still fine as a soap, but you lose out on the additional cleaning power. Think of the scrubbing condoms, er um scrubbing bubbles https://goo.gl/images/nYPXqo

For a quick household experiment, take some hydrogen peroxide and saturate a dry, but slightly stinky sponge. It will start fizzing (H2O2 breaking down to H2O and O2.) Feel the sponge after the fizzing slows down and you may notice the temperature of the sponge has increased. Try it again with a new sponge, no fizzing, no heat, no biological nasties to oxidize.

 

[Bilsch]

The decomposition of the peroxide creates nascent oxygen which is quite reactive.

 

[divrack]

Ordered up enough chemicals to be on a watch list I'm sure...
Just thought I'd mention that I looked at the spec sheet on some UK one and it contains phosphorus so must be using tsp regular. Not surprising really we hate the environment here. Hashtag brexit hurrah

 

[S-Met]

2 weeks later, jar of mixed pbw has remained temperature stable.

 

[TexasWine]

2 weeks later, jar of mixed pbw has remained temperature stable.

So you mixed the real deal ingredients?

 

[S-Met]

So you mixed the real deal ingredients?

Yes, approx mix by weight.
74% oxy
23% tsp
3% EDTA 4Na

Mixed into a 1/2 gal plastic screw top container. Very careful to avoid moisture.

@TexasWine I'm assuming you're in Texas. Relative humidity may have been enough to start the reaction.

 

[TexasWine]

Yes, approx mix by weight.
74% oxy
23% tsp
3% EDTA 4Na

Mixed into a 1/2 gal plastic screw top container. Very careful to avoid moisture.

@TexasWine I'm assuming you're in Texas. Relative humidity may have been enough to start the reaction.

Ah my bad. I meant have you mixed the base ingredients of parcarbonate, metasilicate and the EDTA. I suppose those branded items are the same thing, but was hoping you had bought and mixed the ingredients in their raw form.

Humidity is unworldly down here in Houston right now. I can't step outside without immediately sweating, and when I work out it looks like I took a shower, fully clothed. Water condenses on my double pane windows when the dew point reaches the point of being stupid. It's incredible human beings lived here before the invention of air conditioning.

I'll stop complaining now. We've got jobs, cheap real estate, incredible food and incredible people. I love it, except the humidity.